Hashirama is wrong this time.

[Frikid]

spoiler if you haven't read chapter 626.

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↑Hashirama is wrong when he says he was the one who created darkness and what madara predicted was correct.
It is all madara's fault.
You know, the village doubted uchihas only because they thought uchiha are the one who did the kyuubi attack on the village. But it was actually obito, who was corrupted by MS and evil plans of madara, so if say, madara had died , there would be no obito , so no attack of kyuubi.
And the most important thing is, minato would still be alive, so maybe he would have made an uchiha a hokage or something along those lines to show uchiha that, they still trust them and consider them as a part of the village.

Also uchiha massacre would have never happened too. You know, hiruzen didn't got the opportunity to talk to uchiha and settle things because he lost in the vote count, this time it wouldn't have happened because minato would still be alive so his vote would also be counted.

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[Blunt]

So you are opposing what the manga clearly states, fantastic.

 

[Everztar]

So you are opposing what the manga clearly states, fantastic.

lol no, but what Hashirama thinks
*** THINKS ***
___THINKS___

 

[Frikid]

So you are opposing what the manga clearly states, fantastic.

Hashirama thinks that his decision of creating konoha was wrong and madara was right, i am just saying, what he thinks is wrong.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

So you are opposing what the manga clearly states, fantastic.

character opinion =/= manga fact

 

[Zato]

spoiler if you haven't read chapter 626.

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↑Hashirama is wrong when he says he was the one who created darkness and what madara predicted was correct.
It is all madara's fault.
You know, the village doubted uchihas only because they thought uchiha are the one who did the kyuubi attack on the village. But it was actually obito, who was corrupted by MS and evil plans of madara, so if say, madara had died , there would be no obito , so no attack of kyuubi.
And the most important thing is, minato would still be alive, so maybe he would have made an uchiha a hokage or something along those lines to show uchiha that, they still trust them and consider them as a part of the village.

Also uchiha massacre would have never happened too. You know, hiruzen didn't got the opportunity to talk to uchiha and settle things because he lost in the vote count, this time it wouldn't have happened because minato would still be alive so his vote would also be counted.

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When was it stated that the village though he Uchiha had anything to do with the 9tails attack? When Itachi told Sasuke that Madara was behind it, Sasuke replied in saying that it was nothing but a random attack. But the people of Konoha had always blamed Naruto for the 9tails attack. All of this Uchiha stuff started because of Tobirama not giving the Uchiha a chance and him and his prejudice against them that spilled on through Hiruzen's time.

 

[Frikid]

When was it stated that the village though he Uchiha had anything to do with the 9tails attack? When Itachi told Sasuke that Madara was behind it, Sasuke replied in saying that it was nothing but a random attack. But the people of Konoha had always blamed Naruto for the 9tails attack. All of this Uchiha stuff started because of Tobirama not giving the Uchiha a chance and him and his prejudice against them that spilled on through Hiruzen's time.

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the konoha leaders suspected an uchiha was behind that incident.

 

[Zato]

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When does "leaders" mean village? Like I have stated before, the village blamed Naruto for the 9tails attack.

 

[Frikid]

When does "leaders" mean village? Like I have stated before, the village blamed Naruto for the 9tails attack.

So the village thought a 5 year old kid destroyed konoha?
I think they just hated him because of kyuubi residing in him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what village thinks, the one who are pulling the strings are the leaders and they thought uchiha were behind the kyuubi attack which was the root of all the misunderstandings between both of them.

 

[Zato]

So the village thought a 5 year old kid destroyed konoha?
I think they just hated him because of kyuubi residing in him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what village thinks, the one who are pulling the strings are the leaders and they thought uchiha were behind the kyuubi attack which was the root of all the misunderstandings between both of them.

Dude read what you wrote in this thread... What happened to the Uchiha's was already started well before the 9tails attack and got bigger during Hiruzen's time because of the Konoha elders practicing Tobirama's prejudice tactics against the Uchiha, Orochimaru already explained this. The leaders "suspected" it was a Uchiha because the only person known that could control a tailed beast was Madara Uchiha at that time, but this is Tobi's wording. Also, nothing Tobi says to Sasuke about that can be seen as fact because he lied to Sasuke by telling him he had nothing to do with it when it was him who did it in the first place. Tobi was trying to get Sasuke to hate the village so he would join him.

Itachi knew it was Tobi who did it. Danzou knew it was Tobi who did it as well. Hence he knew of Tobi's existence because of Itachi. Itachi was a double agent for Konoha feeding information back to Danzou and Hiruzen. So why would Danzou blame the Uchiha clan when he already knew it wasn't them.

 

[Frikid]

Dude read what you wrote in this thread... What happened to the Uchiha's was already started well before the 9tails attack and got bigger during Hiruzen's time because of the Konoha elders practicing Tobirama's prejudice tactics against the Uchiha, Orochimaru already explained this. The leaders "suspected" it was a Uchiha because the only person known that could control a tailed beast was Madara Uchiha at that time, but this is Tobi's wording. Also, nothing Tobi says to Sasuke about that can be seen as fact because he lied to Sasuke by telling him he had nothing to do with it when it was him who did it in the first place. Tobi was trying to get Sasuke to hate the village so he would join him.

Itachi knew it was Tobi who did it. Danzou knew it was Tobi who did it as well. Hence he knew of Tobi's existence because of Itachi. Itachi was a double agent for Konoha feeding information back to Danzou and Hiruzen. So why would Danzou blame the Uchiha clan when he already knew it wasn't them.

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^ it is stated in manga clearly , that the discrimination began after the kyuubi attack, i know there were some rebels even before the incident, but it was after this incident that the real thing began.

And if you think danzou really knew all about this, why did he sent his black ops to keep an eye on the uchihas ?
Its obvious, he had no idea who did it, that is why he had suspicions on the uchiha since they are the only people who have the power to control the kyuubi.
tbh, If danzo knew who did it, he would have considered of getting rid of him rather then killing 50+ innocent people.

And my point still stands, if obito would be dead, there would no kyuubi attack and uchiha wont have planned any coup.

 

[Zato]

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^ it is stated in manga clearly , that the discrimination began after the kyuubi attack, i know there were some rebels even before the incident, but it was after this incident that the real thing began.

And if you think danzou really knew all about this, why did he sent his black ops to keep an eye on the uchihas ?
Its obvious, he had no idea who did it, that is why he had suspicions on the uchiha since they are the only people who have the power to control the kyuubi.
tbh, If danzo knew who did it, he would have considered of getting rid of him rather then killing 50+ innocent people.

And my point still stands, if obito would be dead, there would no kyuubi attack and uchiha wont have planned any coup.

Didn't I just tell you NOT to listen to what Tobi is telling Sasuke because he is feeding him a story to gain Sasuke's trust? Half of what he told Sasuke is true(Itachi) and the other half was him manipulating the truth to gain Sasuke. Here is my proof. Orochirama explains WHY the Uchiha were moved away from the rest of the village and he also explained Tobirama's prejudice tactics that was carried on through Hiruzen's time as Hokage.

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The 9tails attack had nothing to do with it because Danzou and Itachi ALREADY KNEW MADARA(TOBI) WAS THE ONE WHO DID IT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WAS ALIVE! MADARA AT THAT POINT WAS NO LONGER APART OF THE UCHIHA CLAN! Why would they blame the Uchiha clan because of an outsider who had a history of controlling the 9tails and attacking the village...

Like I said before, the 9tails attack was thought to be a tailed beast out of control. A natural disaster basically. They blamed Naruto for it because he was the next 9tails host.

 

[Twisted007]

spoiler if you haven't read chapter 626.

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↑Hashirama is wrong when he says he was the one who created darkness and what madara predicted was correct.
It is all madara's fault.
You know, the village doubted uchihas only because they thought uchiha are the one who did the kyuubi attack on the village. But it was actually obito, who was corrupted by MS and evil plans of madara, so if say, madara had died , there would be no obito , so no attack of kyuubi.
And the most important thing is, minato would still be alive, so maybe he would have made an uchiha a hokage or something along those lines to show uchiha that, they still trust them and consider them as a part of the village.

Also uchiha massacre would have never happened too. You know, hiruzen didn't got the opportunity to talk to uchiha and settle things because he lost in the vote count, this time it wouldn't have happened because minato would still be alive so his vote would also be counted.

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Hashirama was right, his system failed to bring peace in the Naruto world. These were Hashirama goals:
1 Connect rival clans - Failed in Konoha, the Uchiha and Senju never connected and distroyed each other. However other villages succeded as far we know.
2 Turn chaos into order - Choas stayed in the Naruto world, there have been 3 shinobi wars and non were started by Uchiha's.
3 Protect shinobi kids - Kidsright didn't improve, insted of fighting for their clan they fight for their village. Kakashi, Obito and rin are prime example. Kids are still giving impossible misions like Itachi. Not to mention the junjuriki kids like Gaara, Naruto, B ect.

 

[Strawberry]

spoiler if you haven't read chapter 626.

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↑hashirama is wrong when he says he was the one who created darkness and what madara predicted was correct.
It is all madara's fault.
You know, the village doubted uchihas only because they thought uchiha are the one who did the kyuubi attack on the village. But it was actually obito, who was corrupted by ms and evil plans of madara, so if say, madara had died , there would be no obito , so no attack of kyuubi.
And the most important thing is, minato would still be alive, so maybe he would have made an uchiha a hokage or something along those lines to show uchiha that, they still trust them and consider them as a part of the village.

Also uchiha massacre would have never happened too. You know, hiruzen didn't got the opportunity to talk to uchiha and settle things because he lost in the vote count, this time it wouldn't have happened because minato would still be alive so his vote would also be counted.

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omfg is that an excuse to do all that to the uchiha who before were working to protect the villlage(military police), were known as top dogs in the world, wth do you think would happend.. You take one of the best clans and treat them like dirt and expect a tea party from them???? Madaras actions are enough to persecute an entire clan????? One that founded the village itself???? Who expected better ????? Faults aside the uchiha were treated unfairly and no matter what the cause was it was the governments failure to come to a proper conclusion that lead to this.... sorry for the text but it represents how your post made me feel

 

[shelke]

You have completely misinterpreted the entire dialogue. Hashirama is referring to what 'Madara ventured' in an earlier chapter about what would happen if Senju hold continued. His clan would be destroyed. He accepts it, because it IS his fault for not killing his brother as well, who threatened Konoha's peace. Now you understand? As he vowed himself that even if my sibling, child, or any acquaintance tried to destroy its peace, I would kill him. I thought it was pretty clear.

 

[spike2068]

Hashirama was right, his system failed to bring peace in the Naruto world. These were Hashirama goals:
1 Connect rival clans - Failed in Konoha, the Uchiha and Senju never connected and distroyed each other. However other villages succeded as far we know.
2 Turn chaos into order - Choas stayed in the Naruto world, there have been 3 shinobi wars and non were started by Uchiha's.
3 Protect shinobi kids - Kidsright didn't improve, insted of fighting for their clan they fight for their village. Kakashi, Obito and rin are prime example. Kids are still giving impossible misions like Itachi. Not to mention the junjuriki kids like Gaara, Naruto, B ect.

1. But he did connect all the other clans in konoha just because madara wanted to act like a baby doesnt mean that you can discount all the other clans the senju united.
2. yes there have been wars but few and far between and def not as many as there were before the village system.
3. Look at number 2, fewer wars and more time between them means fewer people die including children. I know some kids still died and spilled blood in combat but then again it was still less then before.

In conclusion while things were not perfect under the village system they were way better than in the warring tribes era there is no denying that so no hashi did not fail he succeeded but he simply feels depressed he couldnt stop the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the rest of the world and save his friend. Remember he gets depressed a lot its part of his character

 

[spike2068]

omfg is that an excuse to do all that to the uchiha who before were working to protect the villlage(military police), were known as top dogs in the world, wth do you think would happend.. You take one of the best clans and treat them like dirt and expect a tea party from them???? Madaras actions are enough to persecute an entire clan????? One that founded the village itself???? Who expected better ????? Faults aside the uchiha were treated unfairly and no matter what the cause was it was the governments failure to come to a proper conclusion that lead to this.... sorry for the text but it represents how your post made me feel

lol the uchiha should be glad they werent exterminated by hashirama in the first place. If I were him I would have made them join senju or die before forming the village with they other clans, uchiha should show some gratitude that hashi let them live and their leader live. Its not like they were slaves or anything, they were free to go if the chose to and what kind of discrimination besides being made into a police force did they have to endure? I keep hearing how they were treated badly but how exactly? Were they beaten in the street? Paid less? We dont know so stop assuming things with all the knowledge we have it simply looks like the uchiha were just a bunch of crybabies

 

[Twisted007]

1. But he did connect all the other clans in konoha just because madara wanted to act like a baby doesnt mean that you can discount all the other clans the senju united.
2. yes there have been wars but few and far between and def not as many as there were before the village system.
3. Look at number 2, fewer wars and more time between them means fewer people die including children. I know some kids still died and spilled blood in combat but then again it was still less then before.

In conclusion while things were not perfect under the village system they were way better than in the warring tribes era there is no denying that so no hashi did not fail he succeeded but he simply feels depressed he couldnt stop the cycle of hatred between the uchiha and the rest of the world and save his friend. Remember he gets depressed a lot its part of his character

1: The system failed to connect the clans in Konoha, you cant have one of the founding clan killed of and claim that the village connects clans. Tobirama started the discrimination but the 3 Hokage and 4 Hokage didn't change a thing.

2: Did the system created peace? NOOO there have been 4 wars in total and 3 out of them had nothing to do with Madara. Another failed point.

3: Even you can't deny that there is little improvement when it comes to the living condition of Shinobi kids, Itachi experienced war when he was 4. Baby Naruto was bullied in Konoha, How many times did Suna ppl try to kill Gaara?

This everyman for his village mentality created ppl like Nagato. Hashirama did his best, im not hating on him. However Madara was right, this system has alot of flaws.

 

[Frikid]

Didn't I just tell you NOT to listen to what Tobi is telling Sasuke because he is feeding him a story to gain Sasuke's trust? Half of what he told Sasuke is true(Itachi) and the other half was him manipulating the truth to gain Sasuke. Here is my proof. Orochirama explains WHY the Uchiha were moved away from the rest of the village and he also explained Tobirama's prejudice tactics that was carried on through Hiruzen's time as Hokage.

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The 9tails attack had nothing to do with it because Danzou and Itachi ALREADY KNEW MADARA(TOBI) WAS THE ONE WHO DID IT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WAS ALIVE! MADARA AT THAT POINT WAS NO LONGER APART OF THE UCHIHA CLAN! Why would they blame the Uchiha clan because of an outsider who had a history of controlling the 9tails and attacking the village...

Like I said before, the 9tails attack was thought to be a tailed beast out of control. A natural disaster basically. They blamed Naruto for it because he was the next 9tails host.

You are getting it all wrong....
Leaders thought uchiha did the kyuubi attack, which created a confusion between both of them, leaders started doubting uchihas.
Then uchihas got annoyed by this ill-treatment and planned a coup. Danzo asked itachi to kill all uchiha for planning a coup.
No attack = no confusion = no ill-treatment towards uchiha = everyone live happily.

You have completely misinterpreted the entire dialogue. Hashirama is referring to what 'Madara ventured' in an earlier chapter about what would happen if Senju hold continued. His clan would be destroyed. He accepts it, because it IS his fault for not killing his brother as well, who threatened Konoha's peace. Now you understand? As he vowed himself that even if my sibling, child, or any acquaintance tried to destroy its peace, I would kill him. I thought it was pretty clear.

are you serious? So hashirama regrets not killing his brother?
Then again, what created all the ruckus was kyuubi attack .

1: The system failed to connect the clans in Konoha, you cant have one of the founding clan killed of and claim that the village connects clans. Tobirama started the discrimination but the 3 Hokage and 4 Hokage didn't change a thing.

2: Did the system created peace? NOOO there have been 4 wars in total and 3 out of them had nothing to do with Madara. Another failed point.

3: Even you can't deny that there is little improvement when it comes to the living condition of Shinobi kids, Itachi experienced war when he was 4. Baby Naruto was bullied in Konoha, How many times did Suna ppl try to kill Gaara?

This everyman for his village mentality created ppl like Nagato. Hashirama did his best, im not hating on him. However Madara was right, this system has alot of flaws.

1. 3rd hokage tried his level best to stop the uchiha massacre .
4th Hokage didn't live long enough to do anything about it.

2. The uchiha and senjus and other clans used to go daily on wars. After hashirama, there have been 5 generations who lived long enough to know the taste of alcohol.
Tobirama - hiruzen - jiraiya - minato - kakashi
This system was better than what was going on before,

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3. Naruto and gaara both were a jinchuriki. And before war, they both were well respected and living happily so your point is invalid. Maybe you can give 5 or 6 examples of children experiencing hard life, but it is way better than the time in which life expectancy was not more than 6.

 

[shelke]

re you serious? So hashirama regrets not killing his brother?
Then again, what created all the ruckus was kyuubi attack .

That is my own personal point, not something Hashirama neglects. It wasn't that hard to sift it from the rest. But he is accepting his fault for not stopping the scenario that unfurled into the massacre. False. Tobirama started monitoring the clan right after the took the hokage seat.