[Discussion] Uchiha and the Rinnegan

[valandil988]

I just want to bounce some ideas around here so here goes.

Now the only known awakening of the Rinnegan we have to work with is madara's own. The events surrounding it are not well described, all we know for sure was that it was close to the end of his natural life.

This means that he was close to death and FAILURE with regards to the plan he had been working towards. The one thing Uchiha, Senju and Uzumaki all share is their will to never give up.

This idea is referenced to another thread that was posted, which I read it made complete sense. Sorry but I can't remember which one it was. But it didn't really go into detail of how it was important.

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Now I want to throw some ideas around about "Will". This will lead back to the Rinnegan in a minute.

We've seen numerous times where Sasuke or Naruto unlock some new power through their indomitable will.

In Kishi's world Will and determination is the most important aspect of Chakra, if you lack will and belief you can be easily dominated by others of stronger Will. Ie Nagato with his black chakra rods or the tailed beasts and the EMS or Mokuton. All these are examples of extraordinary people with incredible wills suppressing lesser wills with weaker determination.

We have seen an example of the Mokuton not being as effective as it was in the hands of Hashirama Senju. Everyone assumes that Yamato is an example of a lesser form of Mokuton but I would beg to differ, if Yamato is infused with the cells of Hashirama Senju which he must be in order to even use a lesser form of Mokuton. Then he has the DNA of one of the greatest if not the greatest Senju ever. Its ridiculous to assume that the infused DNA has somehow lost potency. No I would suggest that Yamato has the potential to be as great as Hashirama Senju but he lacks the will and ambition to be so.

Hence this makes him rather ineffective at suppressing Biju unless he is aided by -you guessed it- the chakra or in other words the personified will of Hashirama Senju contained within the crystal Naruto originally had. Yamato could suppress the ninetailes completely if he had the will to do so its that simple.

Another aspect of "Will" is the Uchiha Sharingan, Sasukes eyes have grown very powerful, but I have a feeling that should Sasuke stop hating and stop lusting for revenge that his Sharingan would lose its ability to use the EMS techniques. In other words it would lose its potency in a similar way that Mokuton lost potency in Yamato's hands. Uchiha Itachi always said you lack hate, the sharingan's power is also dependent on the will of the user. If it wasn't everyone in the Uchiha Clan would have been as boss as a Madara without MS or EMS.


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Now for how this effects the Rinnegan. Those of the Uchiha clan that were or are close to achieving it such as Madara or Sasuke are very interesting individuals.

In Madara's case he lacks the same kind of arrogance that Sasuke has his arrogance is earned and well deserved, he was always the underdog in the rivalry between him and Hashirama and he knew it but even when he was beaten down he never gave up once, always BELIEVED he would eventually surpass Hashirama.

In Sasuke's case this is the very opposite, he was always top dog the genius of the rivalry between him and Naruto. His arrogance was not earned and he always believed he would be better than Naruto its that simple; however when confronted with situations where Naruto appears to have surpass him in battle or jutsu he always tends to freak out and feel very insecure or angry.

This is very very important for unlocking the Rinnegan. Being humbled by Hashirama for Madara could not break his indomitable will in the belief that he could and would surpass him, but one thing could, being confronted by the fact that his plan would fail at the end of his life, that was what unlocked the Rinnegan for Madara the very last step of corruption- failure and accepting it, a breaking of his will.

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I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that when the Sages' sons are being described, the Eldest received the eyes, spiritual chakra and the youngest received the Body, physical chakra. It says right there that the Eldest son received the eyes...and what were the eyes in question? The Rinnegan of course. The Uchiha inherited the Rinnegan...they did and its likely not even necessary for Senju DNA to even come into the equation. While obviously the Eldest Son had not achieved it or perhaps did not even know how to unlock it (likely the second scenario). Madara did the wrong thing he didn't need it. Thats why jack all happened for most of his life trying to unlock it, he kept believing that the DNA just needed more time. Until the moment that he accepted he had failed that's when he unlocked it.

Why did Madara think he needed Senju DNA? That whole two sides working together thing from the latest chapter?

This applies to Sasuke because it may be possible that his will could break when confronted with a superior Naruto, and ala VoTe unlock it during a humbled moment or during his defeat.

Thoughts?

 

[pandu]

That is interesting hmm

or
madara still didn't have enough dna pro'ly.He might have cultivated it but he only was able to produce weaker versions of hashirama(zetsu)
May be that was the reason he couldn't awaken it instantly??

 

[sanninuto]

well, cool

 

[UchihaRigamortis]

it could just be that he didnt have and entire body full of senju cells just enough to fill his scar which could translate to him taking alot more time to get the rinnegan hes still was prob like 98 % uchiha 2 % senju

 

[Zeph]

Awesome.........

 

[valandil988]

That is interesting hmm

or
madara still didn't have enough dna pro'ly.He might have cultivated it but he only was able to produce weaker versions of hashirama(zetsu)
May be that was the reason he couldn't awaken it instantly??

Apparently not many people know how DNA works, if you have a sample you can clone a nearly exact copy, but thats all it is a physical copy. What made Hashirama himself was his Will and his experiences not his body. The body gave him the potential to do what he did, his powers did not make him the Shodai. As we can see with Yamato he is a semi clone of the Shodai but he is his own person with different motivations and experiences hence Yamato could have been either weaker or stronger than the Shodai. The androids or Zetsu that Madara speaks of are not "clones" but as he says walking and talking masses of Hashirama's cells without the structure of a true human, lumps of living Mokuton almost. But the material they are made from are perfect samples of Hashirama's cells. It seems Madara lacked the capability to make real clones, just clones of the cells not the overall structure.

No Madara inserted the material into his body, by the time he could use Mokuton the DNA was likely fully accepted into Madara's body and hence he should have awakened the Rinnegan. Likely within a few years. Not the near 60 or 70 years he sat around doing squat while messing with water country. The impression I got from Madara talking about the way he awakened it is that he didn't understand it himself, either that or he doesn't want to acknowledge the truth that he had given up at that point near death. He had counted on awakening it rapidly, this is why his plans were set back so much. He wanted to do what Akatsuki were doing 30 or 40 years ago not a 100 yrs after he had conceived of the plan. Hence the whole, revive me so I can have fun with the juubi plan....:erm:

Remember that Madara couldn't summon the Gedo Mazo at this time, so he was likely cultivating samples in a lab, or perhaps he got someone to do it for him.

 

[valandil988]

it could just be that he didnt have and entire body full of senju cells just enough to fill his scar which could translate to him taking alot more time to get the rinnegan hes still was prob like 98 % uchiha 2 % senju

From what I can tell Hashirama's DNA is very strong so its likely that it would spread throughout his body self replicating. He wouldnt have stayed 2% Senju 98% Uchiha for long.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

Apparently not many people know how DNA works, if you have a sample you can clone a nearly exact copy, but thats all it is a physical copy. What made Hashirama himself was his Will and his experiences not his body. The body gave him the potential to do what he did, his powers did not make him the Shodai. As we can see with Yamato he is a semi clone of the Shodai but he is his own person with different motivations and experiences hence Yamato could have been either weaker or stronger than the Shodai. The androids or Zetsu that Madara speaks of are not "clones" but as he says walking and talking masses of Hashirama's cells without the structure of a true human, lumps of living Mokuton almost. But the material they are made from are perfect samples of Hashirama's cells. It seems Madara lacked the capability to make real clones, just clones of the cells not the overall structure.

No Madara inserted the material into his body, by the time he could use Mokuton the DNA was likely fully accepted into Madara's body and hence he should have awakened the Rinnegan. Likely within a few years. Not the near 60 or 70 years he sat around doing squat while messing with water country. The impression I got from Madara talking about the way he awakened it is that he didn't understand it himself, either that or he doesn't want to acknowledge the truth that he had given up at that point near death. He had counted on awakening it rapidly, this is why his plans were set back so much. He wanted to do what Akatsuki were doing 30 or 40 years ago not a 100 yrs after he had conceived of the plan. Hence the whole, revive me so I can have fun with the juubi plan....:erm:

Remember that Madara couldn't summon the Gedo Mazo at this time, so he was likely cultivating samples in a lab, or perhaps he got someone to do it for him.

I have a similar argument as you. Mine is more extreme, and none of Madara's or Uchihas' fans like it. In every thread that talk about Rinnegan being the last level of Sharingan, or Sasuke obtaining Rinnegan, there is something I say: An Uchiha with normal uchiha body cannot tolerate the Rinnegan. Why?

Let look at Yamato. He was given Hashirama's DNA from the start (as a kid), and therefore all his body cell's are the same as Hashirama. The way Yamato was given the DNA is different from implanting Hashirama's cells as Madara and Obito did. My opinion is that Madara's method wasn't the right one, and this is why he did not get the Rinnegan earlier. Based on my theory, if Yamato implant a Sharingan, he will obtain Rinnegan instantly because of the perfect body (every cell)+the eyes. I think he does not even need to have EMS, just a simple Sharingan.

Madara said he awaken the Rinnegan when his life force was already depleted. Then he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato despite having Gedo Mazou and Hashi's cell culture. He could replace Obito's body with Hashi's cell, so why did he not replace his own body with the same material? My opinion is that Madara is ashamed to tell the truth. Madara got some Hashi's cell and implanted them. Then he unlocked the Rinnegan. Unfortunately, the power of the Rinnegan required a large amount of life force which he did not have. Therefore, he got his little life force taken away by Rinnegan and he became lame just like it happen to Nagato when he summoned Gedo Mazou for the first time. In fact, Madara said that after unlocking Rinnegan, he unsealed Gedo Mazou inadvertently. This is why he became suddently old because his Uchiha body wasn't enough to resist Rinnegan power requirement.

Consequently, Madara knew that if someone has the life force required, it is an Uzumaki or a Senju. He knew he couldn't give his eyes to a Senju, so he gave it to an Uzumaki and made the kid believe that the Senju (Konoha) killed his parents. This was the truth about Madara and the Rinnegan. This truth is even evidenced by the talk between Madara and Kabuto:

Madara: You did not create this power
KAbuto: This is based on an hypothesis form by me and Oro Sama. We even did better than those before us (Madara and Danzou).
Madara: You who cannot even read the stone tablet ... you deciphered the secret of my body

The last line proved that there is mention of Rinnegan being obtained through Senju+Uchiha in the stone tablet. It also said that Kabuto deciphered that secret. What was the secret?

Well, I think the secret is that Madara died because he did not have a body made 100% of Senju.

As solution, Kabuto fused an entire Hashirama's clone with the corpse he used for Madara's edo Tensei. If you analyze Madara's edo tensei clearly, you will see this two things:

1. Madara used his own power from edo tensei to use EMS
2. USing the Rinnegan triggered automatically HAshirama's clone that is fused with him.

This prove that each one of the two body drived a specific dojutsu. This explain why Madara got old, and why he gave his eyes to Nagato. This means also that an Uchiha cannot use the Rinnegan without having two body working interchangeably. This prove that even if you give Sasuke some Hashi cell, he might unlock Rinnegan, but he will get old if you don't fuse an entire Hashi's clone with him. Finally, this suggest that current Orochimaru is the one who will unlock Rinnegan after assimilating Sasuke's body. Simply because he has the power to do what the other (Madara, Obito, Sasuke) cannot do. He can transfer his soul into a Hashi clone and make it his new body.

Right now, Orochimaru is the only perfect HAshimara's body, and he has power that can take Mokuton on a whole new scale. I predict that at some point in the manga, Sasuke will lose all interest, and be defeated by Oro.

Note: Notice what Oro represent for the series, and what he has accomplish so far. I predict that his role is yet to come.