[Discussion] Ichigo's Zanpakuto

[adventnova]

I looked back 20+ chapters in the manga to look for some hidden or missed details last night and to catch up on some things even though ive read every chapter to date. i copied the bleach.wiki as it explained better than i could about the regarding info im talking about.

Quote from Bleach.wiki -
"Ōetsu comments to Renji that he did not protest about him sending Ichigo away. He explains that he knows why, as the creator of the Zanpakutō he knows the position of every Asauchi he has ever created, whether they are common soldiers or captains, one way or another a Shinigami needs an Asauchi in order to make a Zanpakutō. He further explains the nature of acquiring a Zanpakutō and that Ichigo having a Zanpakutō without an Asauchi confirmed he was not a Shinigami. He states to Renji that he knew the method he devised would not be passed by Ichigo and that Renji knew it as well, in fact the only one that didn't know was Ichigo himself. Ōetsu points out that Ichigo needs to find out where his soul lies."

With that being said they missed 2 details about Asauchi and Zanpakuto's in the wiki. Anyone who steals a Zanpakuto isnt suppose to release the stolen Zanpakuto (which Oetsu points out Zaraki Kenpachi through a flash back) and the way he was going about, Ichigo should not have been able to release his Zanpakuto AT ALL! He also points out that Ichigo's Zanpakuto is clearly stolen, which is a 50/50 among most of us readers and fans of the series that its actually stolen. He has no Asauchi for his Zanpakuto... then what in the hell was Zangetsu's Manifestations if they were not his Asauchi? Old Man Zang, Young Zang and Hollow Zang? That part has me confused which could be translation errors but for some reason i kind of doubt that...

It seems Ichigo is defeating all odds at every corner.

 

[Minato RG]

he created like the guy who created the first sword

 

[Cypher]

my theory since last chapter is that we know hollow can create zanpakto themselve so what i think is that hollow we see know will be sealed in ichigo somehow most likely through the hogioku by aizen

and later ichigo will transform it into his zanpakto and zangetsu is that hollow remember ichigos inner hollow is part of zangetsu

and aizen said he planned ichigo

 

[TheHokage]

Hmm interesting theory but I believe there's more to Zangetsu than we know, I think Zangetsu is incomplete somehow looking at Zangetsu now it just feels weird perhaps this recent hollow that's been shown has been acting as a asauchi in someway allowing Ichigo to use Zangetsu.

Anyway do you think Ichigo's Zanpaktou might have some sort of element ability to it I hope it does as Kaien's had a water element in his Zanpaktou and Isshin has a fire...

 

[gazz uzumaki]

Anyone who steals a Zanpakuto isnt suppose to release the stolen Zanpakuto (which Oetsu points out Zaraki Kenpachi through a flash back) and the way he was going about, Ichigo should not have been able to release his Zanpakuto AT ALL! He also points out that Ichigo's Zanpakuto is clearly stolen, which is a 50/50 among most of us readers and fans of the series that its actually stolen. He has no Asauchi for his Zanpakuto... then what in the hell was Zangetsu's Manifestations if they were not his Asauchi? Old Man Zang, Young Zang and Hollow Zang? That part has me confused which could be translation errors but for some reason i kind of doubt that...

It seems Ichigo is defeating all odds at every corner.

It's still too early to comment on anything about Ichigo's zanpakuto so I'm not gonna say anything about that yet.

Kenpachi however, is a different story. It is true that a person can't use someone else's zanpakuto abilities. But, since kenpachi defeated the shinigami with no weapon, we can safely assume that the shinigami was a low level one. If that is true, then it's likely that the shinigami hadn't bonded with his zanpakuto long enough to make it his own personal sword.

That sword was most probably still an asauchi blade when Kenpachi took it.

 

[alu]

Hmm interesting theory but I believe there's more to Zangetsu than we know, I think Zangetsu is incomplete somehow looking at Zangetsu now it just feels weird perhaps this recent hollow that's been shown has been acting as a asauchi in someway allowing Ichigo to use Zangetsu.

Anyway do you think Ichigo's Zanpaktou might have some sort of element ability to it I hope it does as Kaien's had a water element in his Zanpaktou and Isshin has a fire...

maybe ichigo has wind element

 

[adventnova]

Hmm interesting theory but I believe there's more to Zangetsu than we know, I think Zangetsu is incomplete somehow looking at Zangetsu now it just feels weird perhaps this recent hollow that's been shown has been acting as a asauchi in someway allowing Ichigo to use Zangetsu.

Anyway do you think Ichigo's Zanpaktou might have some sort of element ability to it I hope it does as Kaien's had a water element in his Zanpaktou and Isshin has a fire...

Yes, i actually thought about the Zanpakuto Elements they had back in the Fake Kurakura Town incident. Forgot Kaien's was water though. However it kind of makes sense. Ichigo's Reiatsu and Reishi have had 4 colors ive noticed... Black, Red, Blue and Purple. Well colors dont really signify too much but can help. i.e. Hollow = Black, Red = Fire, Blue = Water and/or Quincy and Purple would be Fire and Water/Quincy... thats if you're corresponding them that way. im not saying thats how it is. we dont know that yet or at all.

Ever since i noticed the transformation of Zangetsu's abilities affecting Ichigo and how it changes his look (i really noticed once he went through the Dangai to train in the Pressure zone for an hour to gain 1 years training to fight Accended Aizen). Zangetsu just keeps growing and changing but he never is never in a complete form, something is always physically missing or disconnected between the 2. When Ichigo goes from Shikai to bankai they both merge and the swords wraps start bonding with Ichigo's arm giving him a Coat and a sword with a short 7 link chain, when in bankai and he trained Zangetsu advanced and gave him a glove that was bonded with the swords chain and wrapped up his arm with the sleeve missing of his coat... still incomplete. then he uses Mugetsu, that form is not even close to complete, his whole left arm is exposed. IMO i believe Zangetsu and the Hollow soul (unless they both are completely 1 soul, not talking about Merged Young Zangetsu) held back their powers to prevent a permanent good bye.

 

[Smd]

my theory since last chapter is that we know hollow can create zanpakto themselve so what i think is that hollow we see know will be sealed in ichigo somehow most likely through the hogioku by aizen

and later ichigo will transform it into his zanpakto and zangetsu is that hollow remember ichigos inner hollow is part of zangetsu

and aizen said he planned ichigo

This but there was no ichigo at this time, unless.. ichigo dad had *** with ichis mom already.

 

[adventnova]

They just met at this flash back so there was no time to procreate. Unless he was like - "I like you, thanks for saving me... *Bam!* you're having my child right now!"

You know what TheHokage, From the start after Ichigo got his powers back after Byakuya had cut them away. Ichigo Developed his Hollow mask before he gained Shinigami Powers... So your Theory would be spot on if the Hollow was strong enough in him from the start to manifest a Zanpakuto and share its powers, which could be the reason for Ōetsu to say he isnt even a shinigami.

 

[TheHokage]

They just met at this flash back so there was no time to procreate. Unless he was like - "I like you, thanks for saving me... *Bam!* you're having my child right now!"

You know what TheHokage, From the start after Ichigo got his powers back after Byakuya had cut them away. Ichigo Developed his Hollow mask before he gained Shinigami Powers... So your Theory would be spot on if the Hollow was strong enough in him from the start to manifest a Zanpakuto and share its powers, which could be the reason for Ōetsu to say he isnt even a shinigami.

Hmm, I agree I don't think Isshin and Masaki got it on straight away either...I think it was similar to how Ichigo and Rukia met you know, and Ryuken probably didn't make it easy.

Anyway Ichigo's hollow has even stated that he is Zangetsu however...

Perhaps Zangetsu is a mixture of the hollow and Ichigo's soul and that's why I think his Zanpaktou is incomplete and possibly it's also why Ichigo doesn't have a sealed form for Zangetsu I know we where told it's because he has to much spirit pressure but perhaps there's another reason.

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

cool theory but i don't think you need the asachi to know the name of your zankpaktou....that's kinda what i thought but gotta look at the context....captain commander who's way older needed a asachi when they were not even created???...you get what i'm trying to say....that hip hop squad zero dude was not the first shinigami....so how did all the shinigami before him know the names of their zanpaktou with out him?

the asachi is just a bridge which is used to get the name of your zanpaktou easier....i believe unlike most others that zanpaktous have their own spirit....ppl think im crazzie when i say that but im pretty sure it's been said in the manga and that over time the zanpaktou connects to the shinigami while that is happening the zanpaktou is manifesting itslef by using the essensse of your soul so that the zanpaktou is unique to each user. cuz all shinigami have the same sword, when it is released(the spirit of the zanpaktou) is shikai which are all different. the whole asachi stuff is confusing tough

 

[adventnova]

I see what you are saying. Only thing though, is even the Captain Commander had an Asauchi. He may be well over 1,000 years old but he isnt the oldest among all of soul society. He definitly looks the oldest, but that is because i think he does not focus and train his reishi/reiatsu like all the other captains and their subordinates, which also his Flame Zanpakuto is pretty much the Fiery Essence of Death which could also be reflecting why he is looking unforgivingly aged. He had an Asauchi before his Captain commander days, he was a rebel Shinigami just slaughtering everyone. Then got booted from Upper SS and tasked to be the leader of Lower SS and the 13 Quart Guards.

The way Ōetsu said it, there was no Zanpakuto's, because they are Asauchi and he created them. I know jsut like you and everyone else would know, how would they fight without one? maybe they had regular swords, pikes, bows, who knows. If so they wouldnt last against hollows that way. So im assuming Ōetsu and many others in the upper Tier SS are a lot older than what we think they are. Especially the Soul King... Heck Rukia is a couple hundred years old and she looks around Ichigo's age if not 5 or so years older.... but her drawings still suck.

 

[TheHokage]

cool theory but i don't think you need the asachi to know the name of your zankpaktou....that's kinda what i thought but gotta look at the context....captain commander who's way older needed a asachi when they were not even created???...you get what i'm trying to say....that hip hop squad zero dude was not the first shinigami....so how did all the shinigami before him know the names of their zanpaktou with out him?

the asachi is just a bridge which is used to get the name of your zanpaktou easier....i believe unlike most others that zanpaktous have their own spirit....ppl think im crazzie when i say that but im pretty sure it's been said in the manga and that over time the zanpaktou connects to the shinigami while that is happening the zanpaktou is manifesting itslef by using the essensse of your soul so that the zanpaktou is unique to each user. cuz all shinigami have the same sword, when it is released(the spirit of the zanpaktou) is shikai which are all different. the whole asachi stuff is confusing tough

I don't think it was ever mentioned when Yamamoto got his Zanpakto perhaps that squad 0 member is not that far off Yamamoto's age.

 

[adventnova]

I don't think it was ever mentioned when Yamamoto got his Zanpakto perhaps that squad 0 member is not that far off Yamamoto's age.

it wasnt mentioned when he got his, but he had is throughout his back story of being a rebel ruthless squad just slaughtering people until he was charged with being leader of Lower SS. Some of 0 Squad are said to have been with him before they were promoted to Upper SS ranks.

 

[NLee]

With that being said they missed 2 details about Asauchi and Zanpakuto's in the wiki. Anyone who steals a Zanpakuto isnt suppose to release the stolen Zanpakuto (which Oetsu points out Zaraki Kenpachi through a flash back) and the way he was going about, Ichigo should not have been able to release his Zanpakuto AT ALL!

He also points out that Ichigo's Zanpakuto is clearly stolen, which is a 50/50 among most of us readers and fans of the series that its actually stolen. He has no Asauchi for his Zanpakuto... then what in the hell was Zangetsu's Manifestations if they were not his Asauchi? Old Man Zang, Young Zang and Hollow Zang? That part has me confused which could be translation errors but for some reason i kind of doubt that...

It seems Ichigo is defeating all odds at every corner.

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Ouetsu never said a stolen Asauchi can't be released.
Zaraki got his Asauchi from a dead Shinigami. Asauchi. That means it was still an Asauchi meaning it was unmolded.

If it's unmolded then it means it's still a blank slate. Zaraki took the blank slated Asauchi, and made it his own.


Ichigo's zanpaktou was never stolen. Exactly who did he steal it from? Ouetsu never said that. Ichigo's "zanpaktou" was manifested when he attained his powers. Just because we don't know it's origins doesn't mean it was stolen.

 

[adventnova]

Ichigo's zanpaktou was never stolen. Exactly who did he steal it from? Ouetsu never said that. Ichigo's "zanpaktou" was manifested when he attained his powers. Just because we don't know it's origins doesn't mean it was stolen.

Ouetsu hinted it was stolen by similarizing it to Zaraki. I agree Ichigo officially Manifested his own Zanpakuto when Urahara took him to the basement training area and he gained his hollow mask. I wasnt saying anything about its origins and referring it to be stolen, i was referencing what Ouetsu had said.

 

[gazz uzumaki]

Ouetsu hinted it was stolen by similarizing it to Zaraki. I agree Ichigo officially Manifested his own Zanpakuto when Urahara took him to the basement training area and he gained his hollow mask. I wasnt saying anything about its origins and referring it to be stolen, i was referencing what Ouetsu had said.

Ouetsu wasn't hinting towards the way Kenpachi obtained his at all, he was stating one of the ways to gain to gain a asauchi apart from joining the 13 court guards. Since Ichigo didn't do either of them, he is not sure how Ichigo got a zanpakuto.

From what Ouetsu said, all a asauch does it help a shinigami manifest their zanpakuto from within them since they can't do it on their own. Ichigo is a different case as he managed to do it without an asauchi's help. But we're gonna have to wait and see how he did it.

 

[adventnova]

Ouetsu wasn't hinting towards the way Kenpachi obtained his at all, he was stating one of the ways to gain to gain a asauchi apart from joining the 13 court guards. Since Ichigo didn't do either of them, he is not sure how Ichigo got a zanpakuto.

From what Ouetsu said, all a asauch does it help a shinigami manifest their zanpakuto from within them since they can't do it on their own. Ichigo is a different case as he managed to do it without an asauchi's help. But we're gonna have to wait and see how he did it.

sorry not trying to turn your very good argument around here to benefit me.

Your first paragraph was exactly what i was trying to say, but today i cant think properly at all, very very tired...

Your second paragraph is what i've been thinking on my own exactly to a T, just that the Manga translations have been confusing me towards deciphering this exact thought and what Ouetsu was actually saying or suggesting.

 

[sameer1]

Reading the first page it makes me more confuse about Ichigo.What is his real power ?What is the relation between the soul and zanpakuto?Back then the creator of zanpakuto said that Ichigo hasn't find his soul yet......what does he mean?

 

[adventnova]

He knows about Ichigo, just as much as aizen knows about him. He knows he is not a just a shinigami. He is a Mutt, mixed breed, mud-blood (if you prefer that term). He knows Ichigo is the only one that doesnt know who he actually is, which in turn would be what are his true powers since he can call upon his Zanpakuto without the help of an Asauchi. This baffles Ouetsu since he created the Asauchi for the Zanpakuto to help shinigami commune and release them.