Tazzilla88
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The sannin are one of those teams where the sum of its members strength does is lesser than their group strength.
What I mean to say, is that each of the sannin have quite OP Jutsus.
Frog Song (which is different from frog call)
Byakugou
Edo-Tensei
And these are their strongest techniques. However, as a team this is not the height of their power. Even their weaker techniques become a lot stronger in the face of teamwork
Body Pathway Derangement
Toad Flatness
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough
Even those weaker techniques have a place in a setting such as theirs.
So to evaluate their team strength let's start with their summons.
Gamabunta: Of the main summons of the sannin Gamabunta is the smallest summon.
Though is he not the weakest nor the least versatile by a long shot. In fact he is the most offensive aligned summon the sannin posses. But I'll get to that in a little bit
Right now what I want to highlight is the size of the summons. They are the size of tailed beasts. As I am not a fan of relative size comparison as that's often inconsistent in the manga and inconsistent based on which area we are looking from. So I wish to start the comparison with direct comparisons of size.
when Gamabunta is put directly next to the nine tails their size is very similar
when Gamabunta is put next to Shukaku they are the roughly same size.
I will revisit size for later purposes
But for now let's finish our look at Gamabunta. Besides being large he is also very strong, and has on one occasion cut the arm off a tailed beast. (Shukaku)
in his arsenal he also has large suiton capabilities
and oil capabilities.
What's more is that he is fairly evasive, and has an affinity towards kenjutsu
Katsuyu: She is the middle sized summon of the sannin. Being being than Gamabunta but smaller than Manda. Her arsenal is designed to be a support defense summon more than it's designed to be an offense based summon. In her arsenal there is her ability to quickly spit acid over a wide area. An acid so strong it quickly melts through rock.
in addition she is able to divide into thousands of herselves. Now thousands may seem like an exaggeration of her abilities and before the War arc I would have agreed I would have said hundreds. But consider this Konoha is the military city in the Fire Country. (I mean for all intensive purposes the actual heads of state do nothing) Konoha houses the majority of the fire country's shinobi as Tsunade is in charge of the fire country's shinobi. The joint allied shinobi forces total 80k people. Among that you have shinobi from each of the five villages and samurai. There are probably less samurai than everyone else but for the sake of skepticism let's say that every put equal amounts into the army. 80000/6 would be 13, 333 people. It is konoha policy not to allow genins in war. Which would mean they're shinobi force would probably be around 14 thousand. Now in order to be a shinobi, they would need to get missions. The person who receives missions to give is the hokage. So it's safe to assume all shinobi either live in or near konoha for the sake of their livelihoods. We must also take into account that not everyone in konoha is a shinobi. There are shop keepers such as the ramen guy. There are various merchants, tailors, bankers, inn keepers and so forth. So let's continue to be skeptical and say that because konoha is mostly a military based city that there are only about 6 thousand civilians. ( Which is low balling it. I think. I think what Konoha has is a lot like what DC, and other nation's capitols have. Higher standards of living bring more people. And Higher standards of living seem to exist in the larger cities) So now we've agreed upon the conservative number of 20,000 people in or close to Konoha. Tsunade expected Katsuyu to attach herself to every villager and shinobi.
now obviously Katsuyu wasn't entirely successful in her task as 1. Nagato had to resurrect some. (though we do have to take into account a lot of people have died before Katsuyu got there like Kakashi or sometimes there was nothing that could be done like when Pein soul ripped shizune). and 2 we know she didn't reach every one as Tsunade said Katsuyu is attending to the majority of the villagers
Which even with our conservative number would leave over 10 thousand people with Katsuyu. Even divided in such a state, some minis were still larger than people. A seemingly coorelated ability of Katsuyu is that she appears to not be harmed by cutting based attacks.
In addition she has an innate durability. Having been able to protect people from Shinra Tensei and being able to withstand Naruto's chakra cloak.
Now some would argue that Katsuyu did not in fact experience the corrosive effects of the nine tails chakra. Why do they argue this? Because Naruto is not naked. They argue that if his clothes survived it then Katsuyu must have been protected by his clothes. A strange argument to me. But we find that the manga tries to avoid jutsus making character naked. For instance, Choji can expand to gigantic proportions and his clothes fit him. Tsunade tanked Madara's katon and stayed intact. Suigetsu sometimes switches to a water form and still keeps his clothes on. So I find the argument that the clothes protected her invalid. Furthermore to reinforce my point, Naruto's skin was still ripped of as according to Jiraiya the blood is what aids in the redness in color and the chakra had to pass through his clothes. Now note that at 4 tails Naruto chakra was corrosive enough to quickly burn completely through Orochimaru's snakes.
. And Katsuyu has a few more useful abilities that are worth mentioning. It's been said that she's protected villagers. And the way she was able to do that was by enveloping them. In that instance, this ability was used as defensive move. It can be offensive as well considering she was able to envelop the people in the room fast enough that there was not time to object or fight back.
. In such an instance no jutsus that require handseals could be performed as the enemies body would be restricted from moving. She however, also splits into even smaller versions of herself.
These minis can stay in your clothes. Why is this helpful? Because Katsuyu can use chakra, and because she can heal it logically follows that she can insert chakra. Likewise chakra can be inserted into her. Thereby creating a safety net for genjutsus. But like her last ability this ability to can be offensive. As Tsunade can channel medical ninjutsu through her it stands to reason that should Tsunade change the intent of the medical ninjutsu (By changing the intent and the way you are using your chakra it would seem that medical ninjutsu can be used to heal or harm.)
If such a thing happens that could potentially be a death jutsu. Finally, Katsuyu's use in terms of intel. She is able to transmit information as soon as one of her minis knows something
Manda: Manda is the largest of the main summons of the sannin. However, he seems to be the weakest and least versatile. That is not to say that he is weak however. What he likely possess given Orochimaru's fondness of poisonous snakes is poison. He is fast and agile. He sharp fangs that would be strong enough to pierce Bunta's skin.
Those are the main summons however, there are still more summons to be discussed for Jiraiya and some to be briefly mentioned for Orochimaru. Jiraiya has 2 other summons that compare in size to Gamabunta
. Those toads are skilled in combat. They've shown no other prowess than the skills displayed with their weaponry. The more powerful summons however are ma and pa. They have a diverse arsenal of jutsus. Ma's tongue for instance is able to sense and bind. And her Dust Cloud is able to blind the enemy. Independent of each other, they can use frog call to stun enemies. Together they can use Demonic Illusion Chant to trap their enemy in a sound based genjutsu. Shima posses a strong wind and fire release. Fukasaku possess a strong wind release and he is able to use frog katas and enhanced sage strength. They can also use the amphibian technique to join themselves to Jiraiya to gather sage chakra for him or to wake him from genjutsu. Jiraiya also has a few barrier toads. One of which takes you into a land with acidic waters. Orochimaru has many many other snakes. Some of them are equipped with many versions of the sword of kusanagi. Three of which are almost as large as Manda
I realize I spent a lot of time talking about summons but I often feel as though is discrepancy between perceived strength and their actual usefulness.
I'll start with strongest team jutsu the sannin would possess based on the skill set shown. It does assume sage mode and other summoning and under such conditions The sannin would be on Bunta's head and Jiraiya and Gamabunta would be putting out as much oil as possible for the to of them combined. Fukasaku and Orochimaru would be using their respective wind releases to spread the oil and stroke the flames. Shima would be providing the katon. And Tsunade would act as the battery for Shima and Orochimaru. As the fire dwindles the Katsuyu would spit her acid. Now this jutsu can still be performed out of Sage mode with a few alterations. Bunta alone would provide the oil. Jiraiya would provide the flame. Orochimaru would use wind release Great Breakthrough and Tsunade would serve as a battery for both the other sannin. Katsuyu would keep her original position.
Another useful set up would not necessitate Sage mode. In fact it would start with Orochimaru using Longsword of the Sky as the enemy tries to avoid being hit by the sword of kusunagi. Jiraiya uses a shadow clone which proceeds to use Toad Flatness- Shadow Manipulation. Tsunade then comes in and uses body pathway derangement. Allowing Jiraiya's clone to breathe once again. At which point the method of finishing off the opponent is theirs for the picking
To illustrate my point let's assume that we are back when the nine tails was attacking the village and let us agree that this the sannin were there and that Minato, Hiruzen, and Kushina was not. Let's say that sannin have all of their abilities they possess right now with the exception of Edo-tensei as they are good guys in the scenario. With each of the sannin's summons being the same size as the nine tails, Kurama would run into problems. I imagine Gamabunta would start off with Water style: Cannonball. Orochimaru's summons I imagine would try something to the effect of Binding Snake Glare Spell while Jiraiya tries to enter Sage Mode. Tsunade and Katsuyu goes on the offensive. Katsuyu sprays her acid. And let's say Bunta goes butterfingers again and has dropped his sword. Tsunade could very well launch herself at Kurama with sword the way she did to Manda. But Taz, what about the TBB they don't have answer for it. That's wouldn't be entirely true. Where Minato used food cart destroyer with Gamabunta , Jiraiya could use Gamahiro While Bunta tries to push back or stall the TBB with Cannonball Orochimaru puts up the three Rashomon gates fallowed by Gamaken's shield and Katsuyu. As further protection as Hiro is pushing the ninetails towards the ground Jiraiya could use Earth Release: Dark Swamp to submerge Kurama's mouth making the immediate Earth around Kurama and Kurama himself take the brunt of the damage. While Kurama is stuck they could use the first jutsu mentioned to solidify the Earth that Kurama is stuck in similar, to the fashion that the allied shinobi forces tried to stick down the juubi. Except the flames would be hotter, and much bigger, and the nine tails would be submerged in mud rather than just his legs and tails being in it.
My point is when people think of the sannin they think of their strength as individuals but the sannin were the most successful team of there time. Many of there techniques are designed to blend together. So that when they fight they become much stronger as a group.
And with the sannin as they were when we saw them at their strongest with their culmulative strength. Should they fight together they would be stronger than the gokage. Stronger than the combination of Naruto and Bee. Not only would they have all of their powers and abilities. But they'd also have at their use All the hokages that have ever been. Orochimaru's edo tensei is problematic for him right now because Hashirama can defy it and while he can stop Tobirama, we're not necessarily sure he can control Tobirama. And should Tobirama truly decide to do so he can free himself. Therefore resurrecting those two under normal circumstances would be risky. But when Tsunade is there. They are more likely to willingly fight with and protect their granddaughter/niece. At their strongest, I hold that the sannin cannot be soloed.
Now one of the main things I would like to see out of this thread are team jutsus that requires each of the sannin or their summon.
What jutsus or combos can you guys come up with?
What I mean to say, is that each of the sannin have quite OP Jutsus.
Frog Song (which is different from frog call)
Byakugou
Edo-Tensei
And these are their strongest techniques. However, as a team this is not the height of their power. Even their weaker techniques become a lot stronger in the face of teamwork
Body Pathway Derangement
Toad Flatness
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough
Even those weaker techniques have a place in a setting such as theirs.
So to evaluate their team strength let's start with their summons.
Gamabunta: Of the main summons of the sannin Gamabunta is the smallest summon.
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Right now what I want to highlight is the size of the summons. They are the size of tailed beasts. As I am not a fan of relative size comparison as that's often inconsistent in the manga and inconsistent based on which area we are looking from. So I wish to start the comparison with direct comparisons of size.
when Gamabunta is put directly next to the nine tails their size is very similar
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But for now let's finish our look at Gamabunta. Besides being large he is also very strong, and has on one occasion cut the arm off a tailed beast. (Shukaku)
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Katsuyu: She is the middle sized summon of the sannin. Being being than Gamabunta but smaller than Manda. Her arsenal is designed to be a support defense summon more than it's designed to be an offense based summon. In her arsenal there is her ability to quickly spit acid over a wide area. An acid so strong it quickly melts through rock.
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Manda: Manda is the largest of the main summons of the sannin. However, he seems to be the weakest and least versatile. That is not to say that he is weak however. What he likely possess given Orochimaru's fondness of poisonous snakes is poison. He is fast and agile. He sharp fangs that would be strong enough to pierce Bunta's skin.
Those are the main summons however, there are still more summons to be discussed for Jiraiya and some to be briefly mentioned for Orochimaru. Jiraiya has 2 other summons that compare in size to Gamabunta
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I'll start with strongest team jutsu the sannin would possess based on the skill set shown. It does assume sage mode and other summoning and under such conditions The sannin would be on Bunta's head and Jiraiya and Gamabunta would be putting out as much oil as possible for the to of them combined. Fukasaku and Orochimaru would be using their respective wind releases to spread the oil and stroke the flames. Shima would be providing the katon. And Tsunade would act as the battery for Shima and Orochimaru. As the fire dwindles the Katsuyu would spit her acid. Now this jutsu can still be performed out of Sage mode with a few alterations. Bunta alone would provide the oil. Jiraiya would provide the flame. Orochimaru would use wind release Great Breakthrough and Tsunade would serve as a battery for both the other sannin. Katsuyu would keep her original position.
Another useful set up would not necessitate Sage mode. In fact it would start with Orochimaru using Longsword of the Sky as the enemy tries to avoid being hit by the sword of kusunagi. Jiraiya uses a shadow clone which proceeds to use Toad Flatness- Shadow Manipulation. Tsunade then comes in and uses body pathway derangement. Allowing Jiraiya's clone to breathe once again. At which point the method of finishing off the opponent is theirs for the picking
To illustrate my point let's assume that we are back when the nine tails was attacking the village and let us agree that this the sannin were there and that Minato, Hiruzen, and Kushina was not. Let's say that sannin have all of their abilities they possess right now with the exception of Edo-tensei as they are good guys in the scenario. With each of the sannin's summons being the same size as the nine tails, Kurama would run into problems. I imagine Gamabunta would start off with Water style: Cannonball. Orochimaru's summons I imagine would try something to the effect of Binding Snake Glare Spell while Jiraiya tries to enter Sage Mode. Tsunade and Katsuyu goes on the offensive. Katsuyu sprays her acid. And let's say Bunta goes butterfingers again and has dropped his sword. Tsunade could very well launch herself at Kurama with sword the way she did to Manda. But Taz, what about the TBB they don't have answer for it. That's wouldn't be entirely true. Where Minato used food cart destroyer with Gamabunta , Jiraiya could use Gamahiro While Bunta tries to push back or stall the TBB with Cannonball Orochimaru puts up the three Rashomon gates fallowed by Gamaken's shield and Katsuyu. As further protection as Hiro is pushing the ninetails towards the ground Jiraiya could use Earth Release: Dark Swamp to submerge Kurama's mouth making the immediate Earth around Kurama and Kurama himself take the brunt of the damage. While Kurama is stuck they could use the first jutsu mentioned to solidify the Earth that Kurama is stuck in similar, to the fashion that the allied shinobi forces tried to stick down the juubi. Except the flames would be hotter, and much bigger, and the nine tails would be submerged in mud rather than just his legs and tails being in it.
My point is when people think of the sannin they think of their strength as individuals but the sannin were the most successful team of there time. Many of there techniques are designed to blend together. So that when they fight they become much stronger as a group.
And with the sannin as they were when we saw them at their strongest with their culmulative strength. Should they fight together they would be stronger than the gokage. Stronger than the combination of Naruto and Bee. Not only would they have all of their powers and abilities. But they'd also have at their use All the hokages that have ever been. Orochimaru's edo tensei is problematic for him right now because Hashirama can defy it and while he can stop Tobirama, we're not necessarily sure he can control Tobirama. And should Tobirama truly decide to do so he can free himself. Therefore resurrecting those two under normal circumstances would be risky. But when Tsunade is there. They are more likely to willingly fight with and protect their granddaughter/niece. At their strongest, I hold that the sannin cannot be soloed.
Now one of the main things I would like to see out of this thread are team jutsus that requires each of the sannin or their summon.
What jutsus or combos can you guys come up with?
