WikiLeaks Treason or Liberation

Kenotthib

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This site has successfully exposed several shady things about are government but some feel that exposing too much information will ultimately lead to negative outcomes. I love wikileaks it provides average US citizens with more intelligence of what there government is capable of. Plus it has brought things to light that I was unaware of. Should the people responsible for this website be persecuted? I personally don't think so. Why shouldn't we know what are troops are currently doing in the middle east? I personally will observe all the information presented on this site because I feel this site may be removed in the future. I also feel information in the wrong hands could (well most likely have negative outcomes). But do the ends justify the means? I admire what Bradley Manning did and don't think he should be punished for it. Many troops are beginning to realize that their current occupations (plural) is morally wrong (In my opinion). So many young people are pushing education to the side to join the military smh. Why are they willing to allow themselves to be used and manipulated by their government. I do understand some student can't afford to go to college but to fight in a war without knowing the government's true intentions is stupid. To all who say 9/11 is the reason don't be foolish. It may be true that you can't believe everything on the internet but by THOROUGHLY researching 9/11 you will come to find holes in the story that our government could probably answer but they don't. So by scratching out 9/11 what else would be probable causes for our occupation in the middle east (research or come to your own conclusions). Okay I'm done with my rant Lol. Tell me what you think?
 

Cypher

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i couldnt care less about what th gov does they are gonna do it regaurdless until people stand up and go to war with them but tbh that would suck to cuz many people would die and still wouldnt change a thing because the gov have a military
 

obito777

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Expose the whole government because they are all scum trash garbage individuals, every last one of them. The people have a right to know.
 

Kenotthib

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i couldnt care less about what th gov does they are gonna do it regaurdless until people stand up and go to war with them but tbh that would suck to cuz many people would die and still wouldnt change a thing because the gov have a military

I doubt the military would aid the government in going to war with its citizens especially since most of our troops are just regular ordinary citizens who believe they are fight for the freedom of those citizens.
 

Smd

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This site has successfully exposed several shady things about are government but some feel that exposing too much information will ultimately lead to negative outcomes. I love wikileaks it provides average US citizens with more intelligence of what there government is capable of. Plus it has brought things to light that I was unaware of. Should the people responsible for this website be persecuted? I personally don't think so. Why shouldn't we know what are troops are currently doing in the middle east? I personally will observe all the information presented on this site because I feel this site may be removed in the future. I also feel information in the wrong hands could (well most likely have negative outcomes). But do the ends justify the means? I admire what Bradley Manning did and don't think he should be punished for it. Many troops are beginning to realize that their current occupations (plural) is morally wrong (In my opinion). So many young people are pushing education to the side to join the military smh. Why are they willing to allow themselves to be used and manipulated by their government. I do understand some student can't afford to go to college but to fight in a war without knowing the government's true intentions is stupid. To all who say 9/11 is the reason don't be foolish. It may be true that you can't believe everything on the internet but by THOROUGHLY researching 9/11 you will come to find holes in the story that our government could probably answer but they don't. So by scratching out 9/11 what else would be probable causes for our occupation in the middle east (research or come to your own conclusions). Okay I'm done with my rant Lol. Tell me what you think?

you forgot about all the proof of aliens and there interaction with our society for years.

Leaked from CIA, USAF, Other world wide intels.

which is much more of a problem then anything
 

Kenotthib

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you forgot about all the proof of aliens and there interaction with our society for years.

Leaked from CIA, USAF, Other world wide intels.

which is much more of a problem then anything

Really? I'll have to research about that smh.
 

YowYan

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There's no such thing as ''exposing too much''
 

Aim64C

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In concept - a site like Wikileaks is necessary in order to keep the mechanics of government as honest as humanly possible.

In practice... it's a mess.

Wikileaks has shown itself to be partisan and to have a political agenda of its own. This undermines the entire premise of the organization.

Even more damage is done by the indescriminate release of information. Names and detailed descriptions of investigations have been released... which is something that should not be released raw to the public. Though that is a bit difficult to accomplish without exposing coverage to media bias.

This behavior, however, fundamentally undermines the goal of the organization. When one releases information to Wikileaks - it is no different than when one turns over information to a spy network. The informant puts his/her -life- in the hands of the inteligence network they are feeding. The data they release can, if mishandled, lead to the identity of the leak's source being revealed - which brings severe punishment (particularly if we are talking about what the organization is supposed to vanguard against - totalitarian and out-of-control government policies).

That's the ultimate problem that wikileaks fails to understand. People won't hand you information (or, not very many will) if they feel like you are going to put a political spin on it or directly/indirectly expose them to legal punishment.

The concept has a place.

Wikileaks, unfortunately, is a very poor first attempt at implementing that concept.
 

Darthlawsuit

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If the government was doing things correctly they would have laughed at Wiki and ignored the leaks. You only get upset when you have things you aren't proud of and don't want others seeing. If the government doesn't want other people seeing it then they are doing something wrong.
 

Aim64C

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If the government was doing things correctly they would have laughed at Wiki and ignored the leaks. You only get upset when you have things you aren't proud of and don't want others seeing. If the government doesn't want other people seeing it then they are doing something wrong.

This kind of depends.

The 'problem' is that everyone feels as though he/she has a valid opinion on an issue. Take an internal military investigation into whether or not a guard at a checkpoint made a 'good shoot.' Let's say someone leaks the reports and files related to that investigation to wikileaks.

An article is, later, published based on that leak that reveals the soldiers' name, known information about the casualty, names of witnesses and details of their testimony, etc.

Now civilians are passing their own form of judgment against that person - be they praising or condemning his/her actions (regardless of the investigation's findings).

Further - AQ cells (or whoever our enemy at the time happens to be) now have a name and, possibly, face to designate as a target (and his/her family) as a means of retribution.

That directly undermines the capability of the military to operate and perform its functions. Soldiers need to be able to pull the trigger and be judged for that action in a court of his/her peers, rather than have every Tom **** and Harry telling them that they should have "shot their legs" or some other unrealistic nonsense they believe because of Hollyweird.

So - just because certain things are kept in confidence does not mean that things are being done wrong, injustly, or incorrectly.

If you want to parallel it with an issue - it's no different than the idea of doctor-patient confidentiality. You -are- horribly upset by the idea that doctors should be required to 'snitch' medical conditions to the federal government. There are things that have their place as part of public knowledge. There are things that have no place being public knowledge.

The challenge is affording the necessary amounts of confidentiality and secrecy to a government for it to fulfill its duty of national defense, while keeping it transparent enough to stave off abuse and corruption.

Right now - I think the government's biggest obfuscating factor is not secrecy - but is in simply overwhelming the analytical capabilities of those committed to government oversight. 3,000 page legislative actions can trigger enough cases to jam up the federal court system for a decade. And they pass two to three such monstrocities every year. Even assuming there are those committed to oversight who have read and understood every piece of legislation passed - the legal battles over its contents are of such great volume that it's nearly impossible to keep the system in check.

This is classic electronic warfare... when you can't evade detection - simply flood the receiver with so many false returns that it can't distinguish between what's real and what's a generated return.
 

Germanicus

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Ha, the children throwing all of these generalizations around.

Yes kiddies, just wait for the big bad government men to censor you completely and kill your families.

When you have valid points behind your impossible to prove assertions of the entirety of government being evil, then maybe your opinions won't be complete jokes.

Wikileaks is just the future of information sharing. A giant cluster fuk of pure data, which will be interpreted in so many ways that it will be hard to effectively utilize it. Until we learn how to properly interpret the information as a whole, people will never be able to properly use such a source and it's information.
 

Darthlawsuit

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Now civilians are passing their own form of judgment against that person - be they praising or condemning his/her actions (regardless of the investigation's findings).

That directly undermines the capability of the military to operate and perform its functions. Soldiers need to be able to pull the trigger and be judged for that action in a court of his/her peers, rather than have every Tom **** and Harry telling them that they should have "shot their legs" or some other unrealistic nonsense they believe because of Hollyweird.
Already happens with about every court case for civilians. It starts as a big deal then everyone forgets about it in a week -_-;;

Further - AQ cells (or whoever our enemy at the time happens to be) now have a name and, possibly, face to designate as a target (and his/her family) as a means of retribution.
When an organization is at war with the USA as a whole it is a bit hard to target specific people, even if you can identify them, when they have much bigger targets to plan for. Perhaps for special OPS against someone we are not at war with this would apply but we shouldn't be doing special OPS against countries we are not at war with anyways. That is why we have so many enemies today.

Also nowadays all you need is a photo and some time on the internet to find someone. If they are on facebook you can find them -_-;;

If you want to parallel it with an issue - it's no different than the idea of doctor-patient confidentiality. You -are- horribly upset by the idea that doctors should be required to 'snitch' medical conditions to the federal government. There are things that have their place as part of public knowledge. There are things that have no place being public knowledge.
The government is not a person. The government is suppose to be the people's collective will. They should HAVE to report to the people about what they are doing or else they will do things that are against our best interests. Freedom of the press was designed to give the press the ability to find government secrets and reveal them.

The challenge is affording the necessary amounts of confidentiality and secrecy to a government for it to fulfill its duty of national defense, while keeping it transparent enough to stave off abuse and corruption.
They are usually failing at that since they cause most of our national defense issues by sticking their nose into everyone's business and using special OPS for every little thing they -THINK- they can fix. They fail at it, piss off both sides, then we have a new enemy and the government is hiding their little failure yet again.

Secrets should be temporary and they should NOT hide failures. If anything failures should be brought to light so that we can try to fix the problems in the future. Same thing with the Catholic church and pedofiles. If they just accepted their failures and tried to fix them neither would have as many problems as they do now.

Right now - I think the government's biggest obfuscating factor is not secrecy - but is in simply overwhelming the analytical capabilities of those committed to government oversight. 3,000 page legislative actions can trigger enough cases to jam up the federal court system for a decade. And they pass two to three such monstrocities every year. Even assuming there are those committed to oversight who have read and understood every piece of legislation passed - the legal battles over its contents are of such great volume that it's nearly impossible to keep the system in check.
We do pass way too many laws without fixing old ones. No one wants to admit to failures in the law so they just keep duck taping the leaks -_-;;
 

Aim64C

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Already happens with about every court case for civilians. It starts as a big deal then everyone forgets about it in a week -_-;;

Only in your big-name crimes that draw attention from the media.

Even so, Jurors are intentionally isolated from the outside world during the course of trials. They are not to leak information to anyone, and they are not to be swayed by news reports attempting to cover the case.

When an organization is at war with the USA as a whole it is a bit hard to target specific people, even if you can identify them, when they have much bigger targets to plan for. Perhaps for special OPS against someone we are not at war with this would apply but we shouldn't be doing special OPS against countries we are not at war with anyways. That is why we have so many enemies today.

There are half as many hostile nations as you seem to think there are, but easily twice as many enemies as you would expect.

I'll let you ponder on what, exactly, that means.

What it implies, however, is that individual targets are the 'in' thing, right now.

Also nowadays all you need is a photo and some time on the internet to find someone. If they are on facebook you can find them -_-;;

Some soldier shoots your brother's roomate's friends' dog's clansmate. Even if you saw the event happen - you do not know the man's name, would not be taking photos of him (we look for such things - taking photos, particularly of a checkpoint and a shooting incident, there - would get security officers all kinds of fired up. The guy would be caught - and in some areas, taking a photo of an incident like that is grounds for a good shoot.

Anyway - even if you got a clean photo - the soldier is likely wearing sunglasses, some kind of cloth protection over their face, the list goes on.

And it does take more than a photo to find someone, these days. A lot of people in the military do not have facebook accounts for various reasons - and even if they did, "search for photo" technologies are relatively primitive and would not do much to reduce operator burden (and that assumes a picture of them in fatigues is available to the public).

The government is not a person. The government is suppose to be the people's collective will. They should HAVE to report to the people about what they are doing or else they will do things that are against our best interests. Freedom of the press was designed to give the press the ability to find government secrets and reveal them.

Freedom of the press was designed so that the press could never be prosecuted for publishing factual information - particularly in the event that factual information was damaging to any given interests within the government.

It does not mean that the press can simply walk in and demand any information they so desire. It means that they cannot be prosecuted, harassed, etc for the publishing of information that is factual (making shit up is illegal, and certain forms of irresponsible reporting are also illegal).

They are usually failing at that since they cause most of our national defense issues by sticking their nose into everyone's business and using special OPS for every little thing they -THINK- they can fix. They fail at it, piss off both sides, then we have a new enemy and the government is hiding their little failure yet again.

This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Though, once again, you are grossly overestimating the number of enemies that have been created in this manner.

Secrets should be temporary and they should NOT hide failures. If anything failures should be brought to light so that we can try to fix the problems in the future. Same thing with the Catholic church and pedofiles. If they just accepted their failures and tried to fix them neither would have as many problems as they do now.

Secrets are 'temporary.' When I enlisted, I signed an 80 year NDA.

Technically, I've probably already broken that thing (along with every other military service member) - but there are things that do need to be kept secret for a considerable amount of time. I know strengths and weaknesses of certain strategies, tactics, equipment, etc within our arsenal. I walk up to military bases and shudder at how easy it would be for me to sneak in or, in some cases, barge right in. I know how we search vehicles for weapons and bombs, and know exactly the places we knew some industrious individual (or group) could hide a bomb... but it's impractical to search every vehicle in that location.

These are things that do not need to be public knowledge.

But they do represent valid concerns - and there are ways of voicing those concerns in a responsible manner.

We do pass way too many laws without fixing old ones. No one wants to admit to failures in the law so they just keep duck taping the leaks -_-;;

That's not really what they are doing. They aren't trying to 'fix' anything.

There are two things a representative does (generally speaking) - try to bring federal spending to his/her state, and try to bring federal spending in line with his/her ideal picture of the government. Occasionally, they will write a law that tries to enforce their vision of morality.

They aren't concerned with a functional system. "We have to pass the law before we know what's in it." The reason representatives approved of that bill was because it brought federal spending to their states - and happy, content people tend to vote for the incumbent in elections.
 

Darthlawsuit

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There are half as many hostile nations as you seem to think there are, but easily twice as many enemies as you would expect.

I'll let you ponder on what, exactly, that means.

What it implies, however, is that individual targets are the 'in' thing, right now.


I'm not worried about nations as they are not dumb enough to attack us, well except for NK. It is populations I worry about and that is who we piss off the most. Everytime we help overthrow someone in secret, every time we funnel weapons, everytime we try to "fix" problems in secret we just make more enemies.

We were far better off in the early 1900's when we only paid attention to things next to us and things that were a real threat to us. Back then Britain was the evil empire and they were the one receiving all of the flak.

Freedom of the press was designed so that the press could never be prosecuted for publishing factual information - particularly in the event that factual information was damaging to any given interests within the government.

It does not mean that the press can simply walk in and demand any information they so desire. It means that they cannot be prosecuted, harassed, etc for the publishing of information that is factual (making shit up is illegal, and certain forms of irresponsible reporting are also illegal).
They can and do walk in demanding information. They get denied a lot then good reporters find the info anyways. Wikileaks revealed a lot of illegal things that soldiers were doing and how the military covered it up and ignored the problem. If you ignore the problem it only gets worse. When soldiers do blatantly wrong acts you do need to bring them to court and punish them for their actions.

There are two things a representative does (generally speaking) - try to bring federal spending to his/her state, and try to bring federal spending in line with his/her ideal picture of the government. Occasionally, they will write a law that tries to enforce their vision of morality.

They aren't concerned with a functional system. "We have to pass the law before we know what's in it." The reason representatives approved of that bill was because it brought federal spending to their states - and happy, content people tend to vote for the incumbent in elections.
Both things don't fix any problems. We need to address many issues with the law, especially regarding lawsuits. Fixing problems should be their #2 concern and balancing the budget should be their #1. Anything else should come after that.

Yeah our representatives are worthless fools that don't do their job. There is a reason no one has faith in congress right now and it is their current way of thinking that is making the approval rating drop.
 
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