[Theory] What really happened to Yagura

[Moe22]

Good theory.

Thanks man! It has some flaws though

 

[JMannn]

Not very plausible. For starters, Obito completely disconnected with 'this world'' when he got his new resolution. He could have killed Kakashi for letting Rin die, ending his hatred, but didn't, meaning he probably wouldn't do the same for Kirigakure. He also didn't have the power to do ir.

There's only one genjutsu capable of controlling a person without them knowing it, Kotoamatsukami, so it is probably the only genjutsu to work in tailed beasts (something remarked by Ao in the Kage summit, who says he didn't doubt the tech was related to Yagura being controlled). Tobi wanted Danzo's Shisui's eye to get the tech, so he didn't have it. There's 3 options:
-Shisui, but he wouldn't do it because reasons (we all know);
-Danzo. He was aligned with Akatsuki (Yahiko), and Tobi presenting himself as Akatsuki could get his help, but seems less plausible;
-Madara. The guy's a beast, knew Rikuddou jutsus and all, could have Kotoamatsukami. Could've been his eye's original powers, or Izuna's. This theory goes better with another one, the attack to Rin.

Kiri attack's at Rin could've been staged by Madara in order to attract Obito to his side. That would also break all the timeline mess goin around aobut this stuff.

Cheers

 

[JMannn]

Uhm, a rather new assumption, although I don't think all your arguments are valid. Especially about KA:

1. KA doesn't work on a jinchuriki? Well this is, if it's a perfect jinchuriki, meaning the bijuu accepted its master. Nothing suggests that Yagura and the 3 tailed was that close.
2. Assuming they were that close, you can't just say genjutsu wouldn't work. KA is too complex. It is true that a bijuu can take his host out of the genjutsu, but only when it realizes that his host is caught in one. How does it realize something like that, when it's the subconsciousness of the host that is affected?
3. Danzo's KA could not possibly control Yagura that perfectly. Danzo's KA compared to Itachi's are waaaaay different. Danzo's places an idea in the targets mind. This is as good as untraceable, however, you could not use this to control someone for a longer period.

So IMO, it could not have been KA. Shisui was dead at the time, when Kisame was recruited, Itachi couldn't use his eye, and Danzo had just acquired Shisui's eye within less than a year from Kisame's meeting with "Madara" and Yagura. Assuming Yagura was under control for a longer period, it is simply impossible. This can easily be proven, since Kisame joined Akatsuki after Itachi, and Ibiki was shown in one of Kisame's flashbacks (proving Kisame's age at the time). Also Shisui could not have used the eye years before this, since Ao saw it in action.

Rinne tensei , is a long shot. It was said (as I remember) that they had to wait 3 years after Yagura's death for the 3-tail to respawn, i.e. they had no reason to capture Naruto before the time skip. So this clearly proves the 3 tails were never extracted from Yagura. Yagura was killed somehow, without it being extracted.

Why control him? Well your guesses are as good as mine. You mention something important, to keep Kiri out of political affairs. They never were involved with any politics. They never took part in any war (raikage said that at the meeting). We have no knowledge of the 3rd Mizukage? Most people assume it was simply Madara, because where else could he have been for all the years, where he was not bound to the three? Perhaps by controlling someone else. The obvious guess would simply be, that he left that job to Obito.

1-Yagura WAS a perfect jinchuriki. Danzo stated it. The OP has it as signature
2-This I agree.

Shisui wasn't dead at the time. When Shisui died, Itachi was already an Anbu. Itachi had 7 years during Kurama attack, meaning he wasn't an Anbu, and so Shisui was alive.

And I would like to know the basis to your conjecture "Danzo's KA could not possibly control Yagura that perfectly. Danzo's KA compared to Itachi's are waaaaay different. Danzo's places an idea in the targets mind. This is as good as untraceable, however, you could not use this to control someone for a longer period." The only thing we know is, Danzo could use KA more frequently due to Hashiroids.

 

[Moe22]

1-Yagura WAS a perfect jinchuriki. Danzo stated it. The OP has it as signature
2-This I agree.

Shisui wasn't dead at the time. When Shisui died, Itachi was already an Anbu. Itachi had 7 years during Kurama attack, meaning he wasn't an Anbu, and so Shisui was alive.

And I would like to know the basis to your conjecture "Danzo's KA could not possibly control Yagura that perfectly. Danzo's KA compared to Itachi's are waaaaay different. Danzo's places an idea in the targets mind. This is as good as untraceable, however, you could not use this to control someone for a longer period." The only thing we know is, Danzo could use KA more frequently due to Hashiroids.

Yes I agree I never necessarily said It would be Shisui, but instead it was his jutsu. Maybe Obito learned KA, and I'm sure Madara knew some form of it. And you're right, Ao said KA is similar to the jutsu that was controlling Yagura, which leads to my specualtion it WAS KA, or a similar jutsu. And yeah, I still believe Yagura was a perfect jin.
Oh and based on the reason of "getting revenge on Kiri" my main problem was the fact that Obito doesn't care about this world anymore. So I think the more plausible theory is that Kiri was being used as a starting point and base for the Akatsuki.

 

[thegame]

Okay, you got me, my theory is kinda stupid no that I look at it XD
But I'm really interested in your theory. So I have a question regarding your statement (which is brilliant by the way). So Let's say Kabuto finds the DNA of Sakumo Hatake. And he does the ritual, are you saying it simply won't work? So everyone that was edo-tensei'd could not move on to the pure world?

No, edo tensei is different, or so I believe. Since edo tensei is also called impure world Resurrection, I said in my theory, that it was a jutsu originally made to bring back people from the pure world. I think nobody know/knew about this world between (except for someone possessing the rinnengan!). I mean if you look at it, some of the people brought back with edo tensei, had issues. Sasori for instance. Sasori was never able to "Move on", because of what happened with Chiyo and his parents, etc. His edo tensei broke on its own due to this. So I believe that a person brought back from the world between, is actually in an unstable state, given he is brought back with edo tensei. But it may also just be the same, who knows, but it's obvious that a guy like Sasori was placed in this world.

1-Yagura WAS a perfect jinchuriki. Danzo stated it. The OP has it as signature
2-This I agree.

Shisui wasn't dead at the time. When Shisui died, Itachi was already an Anbu. Itachi had 7 years during Kurama attack, meaning he wasn't an Anbu, and so Shisui was alive.

And I would like to know the basis to your conjecture "Danzo's KA could not possibly control Yagura that perfectly. Danzo's KA compared to Itachi's are waaaaay different. Danzo's places an idea in the targets mind. This is as good as untraceable, however, you could not use this to control someone for a longer period." The only thing we know is, Danzo could use KA more frequently due to Hashiroids.

1. No, he never stated that. He just said, he could control a tailed beast.

Uhm, point was that Shisui could not have used KA, since 1. Ao saw it in action (takes 10 years from that). 2. he tried to use the other KA on the Uchiha members. So it's simply impossible, that it was KA. Although I don't think the other KA takes up 10 years, but it also has a weaker effect, and couldnt control Yagura for long.

And no it's wrong. It is obvious that Hashi DNA would not amplify the usability of a jutsu with 25000 times (250 days in 10 years to 1 day). Also the way each KA worked was way different. Should be quite obvious to most? U_U

 

[Moe22]

No, edo tensei is different, or so I believe. Since edo tensei is also called impure world Resurrection, I said in my theory, that it was a jutsu originally made to bring back people from the pure world. I think nobody know/knew about this world between (except for someone possessing the rinnengan!). I mean if you look at it, some of the people brought back with edo tensei, had issues. Sasori for instance. Sasori was never able to "Move on", because of what happened with Chiyo and his parents, etc. His edo tensei broke on its own due to this. So I believe that a person brought back from the world between, is actually in an unstable state, given he is brought back with edo tensei. But it may also just be the same, who knows, but it's obvious that a guy like Sasori was placed in this world.[QUOTE/]


The thing that gets me is that most of them are in the same scenario as Sasori

Dan wanted to see Tsunade again:

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Asuma wanted to see his students thrive:

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And finally Haku and Zabuza wanted the other to know how they felt:

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I think these people were in the "impure world", just like Sakumo Hatake.

 

[Almighty Ra]

Great theories and alot of valid points..thanks for posting guys great read

 

[thegame]

The thing that gets me is that most of them are in the same scenario as Sasori

Dan wanted to see Tsunade again:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Asuma wanted to see his students thrive:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And finally Haku and Zabuza wanted the other to know how they felt:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I think these people were in the "impure world", just like Sakumo Hatake.

Yes that is true, many of the resurrect shinobi, had probably not moved on. Their souls hadn't. However, people like Chyiu and Deidara were revived. Both of them should have had no problems with moving on to the pure world, given the way they died. If we are to accept, what Jiraya said, a shinobi is judged by the way he dies, they both surely felt that they died in the "right" way (well Deidara was just a maniac). Also their Edo state seemed rather stable, especially Deidara's, and Chiyo wasn't defeated though.

Another example is Hanzo, who also wasn't sealed. He was in the same state as those you mention, I believe. At least it would make sense that way. Anyway nice discussing with you.

 

[Moe22]

Yes that is true, many of the resurrect shinobi, had probably not moved on. Their souls hadn't. However, people like Chyiu and Deidara were revived. Both of them should have had no problems with moving on to the pure world, given the way they died. If we are to accept, what Jiraya said, a shinobi is judged by the way he dies, they both surely felt that they died in the "right" way (well Deidara was just a maniac). Also their Edo state seemed rather stable, especially Deidara's, and Chiyo wasn't defeated though.

Another example is Hanzo, who also wasn't sealed. He was in the same state as those you mention, I believe. At least it would make sense that way. Anyway nice discussing with you.

Yes, very nice indeed! Although you basically proved my theory wrong

 

[thegame]

Yes, very nice indeed! Although you basically proved my theory wrong

Well, just part of it, however, that is why, you make theories. To try and disprove them, or at least give other alternatives.

 

[Moe22]

Well, just part of it, however, that is why, you make theories. To try and disprove them, or at least give other alternatives.

Yes. But No doubt Yagura was controlled. What are your thoughts regarding detail?

 

[thegame]

Yes. But No doubt Yagura was controlled. What are your thoughts regarding detail?

Hmm, it doesn't make much sense, if Yagura was a perfect host being controlled through normal genjutsu, however, it's not impossible to control a person through other means such as kidnapping his nearest friends or family. Yagura would quickly realize, that he could not touch Obito, and Obito could keep them in his own dimension, and only feed them, as long as Yagura did, whatever Obito wanted. He was just a child, and might not be able to separate emotions from the kage-job.

Why did Obito do it? Well it might be to get a hiding place, where he could gather information and recruit members for akatsuki. It might also be out of hate, or perhaps just to find out, why those mist ANBU wanted to capture Rin.

 

[Moe22]

Hmm, it doesn't make much sense, if Yagura was a perfect host being controlled through normal genjutsu, however, it's not impossible to control a person through other means such as kidnapping his nearest friends or family. Yagura would quickly realize, that he could not touch Obito, and Obito could keep them in his own dimension, and only feed them, as long as Yagura did, whatever Obito wanted. He was just a child, and might not be able to separate emotions from the kage-job.

Why did Obito do it? Well it might be to get a hiding place, where he could gather information and recruit members for akatsuki. It might also be out of hate, or perhaps just to find out, why those mist ANBU wanted to capture Rin.

Yagura wasn't a kid He was actually an adult, albeit one with a childish appearance.

 

[thegame]

Yagura wasn't a kid He was actually an adult, albeit one with a childish appearance.

By "kid" I also mean he is same age as Naruto or Gaara, but thinking about it, that is obviously wrong, since he would then be kage, when he was about 5 years old, since it was about that time, where Zabuza and Haku tried to kill him. So he's probably around 10 years older than Naruto. Yet my point is still the same. Whether it's 16 or 26, you are still young for a kage, i.e. it's hard to think higher of your village than your family or friends. Naruto would not be able to do that for many years.

EDIT: And when I think even deeper, was it ever mentioned, that Zabuza and Haku aimed for the 4th mizukage? I don't think it was, so basically, we can't be sure xD but it would not make sense if it was the 3rd, who we never heard of..

 

[Moe22]

By "kid" I also mean he is same age as Naruto or Gaara, but thinking about it, that is obviously wrong, since he would then be kage, when he was about 5 years old, since it was about that time, where Zabuza and Haku tried to kill him. So he's probably around 10 years older than Naruto. Yet my point is still the same. Whether it's 16 or 26, you are still young for a kage, i.e. it's hard to think higher of your village than your family or friends. Naruto would not be able to do that for many years.

Yeah, I recall him saying that he's a lot older then he looks If Haku can look like a girl, why can't Yagura look like a kid?