[Fear] Truth behind the FTG (Flying Death God)

[FearxDeath]

I read your thread, and I do believe that you thought this theory out very well. However, I think that this may be an instance of over examination. After we were informed about the possibility to mix different chakra natures to create a unique nature, we were introduced to many different elemental kekkei genkai. I think that one of the most important aspects of a kekkei genkai is that it cannot be mimicked, only stolen. I do not believe that Kisame and the Onoki working together could manipulate wood release, nor do I believe that Naruto and Yamato collaborating could create ice release. As Yamato explained, elemental kekkei genkai are not simply Element "A" plus Element "B," but rather a mixture of the elements creating a completely new chakra for said nature. In other words, the two chakra are mixed internally, resulting in a chakra that is different from either of its individual parts. If the flying thunder god was indeed a kekkei genkai, then it should not be replicable, even by capable jonin.

I agree with you when you say that Kishimoto uses a lot of mythology in his manga, from names of characters to the names of jutsu. However, what he also uses when he write the manga is phonetical puns. He gives a jutsu a name that has the sound of another word, but it's individual kanji are different, giving it another meaning. This is seen in Darui and A's attacks, Kitsuchi's attack, and in relation to this thread, Minato's flying thunder god. The mechanics of the flying thunder god's is like that of a lightning rod (which is also read as hiraishin) in that Minato has a seal placed somewhere, and its to that seal that he is "attracted." You said the same thing, but explained that his body is compressed into lightning and then attracted to the seal. That would mean that he is traveling in a relatively direct manner, from point A directly to point B, as opposed to how we have seen him actually move. If Minato was lightning moving to the seal, then how would we explain him teleporting from an outside area to an inside area without damaging the surrounding. From what we have seen, he simply appears, which is very reminiscent of all space-time ninjutsu shown thus far. Your theory would be adding another step that does not seem consistent across all areas of usage.

Lastly, you took an interesting approach by providing your own assumption of the combination of elements it takes to create the kekkei genkai of the hiraishin. From what I have seen with elemental kekkei genkai, there is no need for a medium to use them (in your case, the seal of the flying thunder god.) The user can simply use it. And there is no reason to believe that, instead of lightning and wind creating the hiraishin, it makes the magnet release. The same evidence can be used (magnet release users were only shown to be from the sand and cloud villages, so maybe the combination of wind and lightning creates jinton? This is a theory to be pursued another day.)

I am not here to say that your theory is incorrect, because we do not know that. However, what we have been told is that (1) the flying thunder god is a space-time ninjutsu (2) kekkei genkai cannot be copied or replicated without having said kekkei genkai. These two statements conflict with your theory. I believe that you are focusing too specifically on the "raiSHIN" part of the name of the jutsu (the name of the god was RaiJIN, but Kishimoto specifically used the raiSHIN way of naming it) and not enough on the technique name as a whole. At this point in the manga, it would be too forced to give Minato a kekkei genkai, after establishing him as a "hard working genius" not endowed with a genetic superiority. I believe that my opinion is better supported by the manga.

As much as I appreciate the rebuttle and it is infact a very well thought out one I have to agree to disagree on the following:

1) You use Yamato's analysis of kekkie genkia to try to say that 2 people working together could not reproduce it and then use that as a basis to say an even stronger statement as to say that kekkie genkia cannot be replicated. But I disagree with your interpretation of what Yamato is saying just for the fact that the Rasengan itself can be used when 2 people collaborate with one providing the chakra while the other provides the shape transformation. If we take that into consideration then why does it become impossible to believe that 2 different people could provide the chakra while another provides the nature/shape transformation. You say that Element A + Element B doesnt = kekkia genkia but rather a mixture of the two and yet you fail to acknowledge that it is very well possible that that mixture does not have to be internal and that just as the rasengan is an external manipulation of pure chakra so too can a kekkia genkia technique be manipulation in the same manner.

To even take it one step further let us use Genjutsu for example, it is the process of placing your chakra into someone else and using said chakra to manipulate there brain flow. With this they would simply be placing there chakra into someone else for the purpose of allowing them to use it, hence why the Hokage Platoon must keep there fingers connected while using the jutsu as in to keep the chakra flow connected and steady. All in all I dont feel as though you adequately show that a kekkia genkia cannot be done by more than 1 person. I also think that if kisame and Oonoki got together and trained hard enough then they would be able to use wood release, but at that they would have to sit still and would require a 3rd person to mold the chakra for them and so the technique wouldnt be very good in a fight.

2) Notice that I say he is compressed into a stream of light(Hence the yellow flash) and not lightning, light moves incredibly fast as we all may know and in the time it takes for a homing missile steam of light to make its way around into a crack in a wall and near the seal would be so fast as to not make any noticable difference from whether it had a direct and open path. Light moves at 186,000 milles per second just to let you know.

3) Did you get that from the wiki? because the wiki goes on to say that the magnet release has unknown nature entails, meaning no one knows what nature types make it up. So where you get the idea that Wind + Lightning make up Magnet Release is beyond me. At this point it is still up for grabs until kishi says otherwise. Besides that it would make more sense for the Magnet Release to be Earth + Lightning...

As far as your opinion being better support I again would disagree although you do make some extremely good points, I think you may have missed a few key parts of my theory. Hopefully with the information I just posted you can better see what I mean, please let me know if you still disagree

 

[Lost Woods Denizen]

Well, to address your first statement, I don't think that rasengan and kekkei genkai should be compared. When I said that the chakra mix, I meant that they mix to create a completely new chakra that is specifically that element. If someone provided the shape manipulation and another person provides the chakra, the nature of the chakra itself is not being changed. Yamato stated that for him to use the wood release, imagine him having generating earth chakra on one side, and water chakra on the other. He then combines them, and because he has the kekkei genkai for wood release, his combination of the two chakra result in a new chakra, wood release chakra. Creating elemental kekkei genkai chakra is limited to those with the kekkei genkai, otherwise it would fail to be a kekkei genkai and become a sort of hiden jutsu.

Let us take Mei and Hiruzen to use as brief examples. Mei has the kekkei genkai to create lava through her mixture of earth and fire chakra. Hiruzen also has the ability to separatey use fire and earth chakra. However, because Mei has the genetic coding that allows her to be ABLE to mix the two chakra, she has the lava release, while the most Hiruzen could do is shoot flaming mud balls. Now let us add another person to make it two people using the jutsu. These two people, who are even farther separated than one individual mixing it, must somehow synchronize their chakra so that one does not overwhelm the other, then somehow mix it together into a completely different element. I don't think that this can be done, and though Kishimoto has not stated outright that it can NOT be done, he has lent more evidence that says it cannot (naming them bloodline abilities in the first place. Bloodline limits, as in limited to that bloodline.)

As for Minato and his theoretical kekkei genkai. Light would most definitely be more reasonable than lightning, but it still does not form a complete argument. Let us first argue from the information stated in the manga. Kakashi referred to the technique as a space-time ninjutsu, as well as Minato himself. He did not make any reference to a bloodline limit, as he referred to his technique, Obito's technique, and Tobirama's technique in the same manner: space-time ninjutsu. Also, his demonstrations of the jutsu lead to me to believe that it could not be an elemental manipulation. He has simply disappeared and appeared in other places, in the same pose as well he disappeared. This lends to the theory that he simply disappears and reappears in an instant, rather than travels from one location to the other location. Something moving at the speed of light and then suddenly stopping would cause a lot of collateral damage. Rather than that, I believe he simply appears wherever the seal is located, much akin to a teleport. Because for all intents and purposes, it is a teleportation technique. For your theory to be correct, Minato himself would have to be turned into light, then travel as that light, and be able to perceive everything around him while moving at the speed of light. If that jutsu existed, he would have no need for the hiraishin seals, as he is basically light, and can attack targets that, to him in his light form, appear to not be moving at all. You can probably then say that the seals are necessary because those are what attracts his light form, but that becomes too complex of a technique, where as what we have been shown is him simply appearing, akin to summoning.

My take on the magnet release was not to be taken at face value, as I wanted to point out that because neither of us know what it consists of, my guess was as good as yours.

 

[accept pain]

this is a very nice theory..i appreciate

 

[FearxDeath]

Well, to address your first statement, I don't think that rasengan and kekkei genkai should be compared. When I said that the chakra mix, I meant that they mix to create a completely new chakra that is specifically that element. If someone provided the shape manipulation and another person provides the chakra, the nature of the chakra itself is not being changed. Yamato stated that for him to use the wood release, imagine him having generating earth chakra on one side, and water chakra on the other. He then combines them, and because he has the kekkei genkai for wood release, his combination of the two chakra result in a new chakra, wood release chakra. Creating elemental kekkei genkai chakra is limited to those with the kekkei genkai, otherwise it would fail to be a kekkei genkai and become a sort of hiden jutsu.

Let us take Mei and Hiruzen to use as brief examples. Mei has the kekkei genkai to create lava through her mixture of earth and fire chakra. Hiruzen also has the ability to separatey use fire and earth chakra. However, because Mei has the genetic coding that allows her to be ABLE to mix the two chakra, she has the lava release, while the most Hiruzen could do is shoot flaming mud balls. Now let us add another person to make it two people using the jutsu. These two people, who are even farther separated than one individual mixing it, must somehow synchronize their chakra so that one does not overwhelm the other, then somehow mix it together into a completely different element. I don't think that this can be done, and though Kishimoto has not stated outright that it can NOT be done, he has lent more evidence that says it cannot (naming them bloodline abilities in the first place. Bloodline limits, as in limited to that bloodline.)

As for Minato and his theoretical kekkei genkai. Light would most definitely be more reasonable than lightning, but it still does not form a complete argument. Let us first argue from the information stated in the manga. Kakashi referred to the technique as a space-time ninjutsu, as well as Minato himself. He did not make any reference to a bloodline limit, as he referred to his technique, Obito's technique, and Tobirama's technique in the same manner: space-time ninjutsu. Also, his demonstrations of the jutsu lead to me to believe that it could not be an elemental manipulation. He has simply disappeared and appeared in other places, in the same pose as well he disappeared. This lends to the theory that he simply disappears and reappears in an instant, rather than travels from one location to the other location. Something moving at the speed of light and then suddenly stopping would cause a lot of collateral damage. Rather than that, I believe he simply appears wherever the seal is located, much akin to a teleport. Because for all intents and purposes, it is a teleportation technique. For your theory to be correct, Minato himself would have to be turned into light, then travel as that light, and be able to perceive everything around him while moving at the speed of light. If that jutsu existed, he would have no need for the hiraishin seals, as he is basically light, and can attack targets that, to him in his light form, appear to not be moving at all. You can probably then say that the seals are necessary because those are what attracts his light form, but that becomes too complex of a technique, where as what we have been shown is him simply appearing, akin to summoning.

My take on the magnet release was not to be taken at face value, as I wanted to point out that because neither of us know what it consists of, my guess was as good as yours.

I am a stickler for not repeating myself so I will just comment on what you have said that I disagree with.

• I believe that if he had wanted to Hiruzen could have been able to learn a kekkia genkia technique, but it would have been extremely hard. it is said that it is possible for a person to master all 5 chakra styles but it would be nearly impossible because it would take multiple life times. The same can be said for Hiruzen. He learned to master 3 chakra natures and for him to master a 4th, the lava style, would be unheard of. Your taking something that is obvious, Hiruzen not being able to learn 4 chakra natures, and using it as proof that you are correct. Mei on the other hand has it easier because she was born with the kekkia genkia and thus it is easier for her to use, but I dont think it is out of the question for everyone else, chakra is chakra and how you mold it is key. A good example of this would be a ninja's first chakra type. Much like kakshi showed with the special paper that would shrivel, get damp, turn to ashe, be sliced in half or turn to dirt depending on a ninja primary chakra type. This primary chakra type is what would come naturally to said ninja with additional chakra types being harder to master than the original, but not impossible, because as I said before, chakra is chakra and it all depends on how you mold it. The kekkia genkia user has more than 1 natural chakra type, or so goes my theory, and thus they have an easier time mastering said kekkia genkia, but it is not impossible for others to master it as well, because again, chakra is chakra.
  
  In the slide below Kakashi explains how jutsu's work, it begins with the mixing of spiritual and physical energies into the body to create chakra and the type of chakra used will reflect on the jutsu. All i would propose would be a 3rd artificial mixing done by the hokage guard which would merge the 2 types of chakra's. You say that isnt possible, but I would believe you alot more if you provide a scan as I have.
  
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  Incase the link does work it is
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• You also make a huge fuss, excuse the word fuss its not that im being degrading its just late and i cant come up with a better word x__x, over the fact that kekkie genkia are bloodline limits and cannot be used otherwise. But then how are the Jinchuriki able to use blood line limits? The Data handbook along with the wiki state say this "creating a new chakra type unique to the users, which is usually impossible for normal ninja", but as we know the hokage guard are not normal ninja and are specifically trained by Minato to be able to use this technique.
  
• Yes, he refers to it as Space-Time jutsu because that is what it is. The same way the Wood release is refered to as wood release and not wood kekkie genkia.
  
• I already stated why there would be no collateral damage, even at that I am not sure when the last time I saw light damage anything...
  
• No I already explained as to how the jutsu works, your reiterating everything I said as if there was a debate on whether it was infact what I thought was... pretty pointless... But yes I do believe Minato becomes reduces to a stream of light and thus moves at the speed of light, this light is then, as i already said, draw to the seal he designated prior to initiating the jutsu and he then materializes in the position he designated prior. I am not sure how you mistook this for him being able to run around and attack people or wher you get the idea that he can perceive what is around him in this light form.
  
• In regards to the Magnet Release, your guess is as good as mine, So I dont see how that adds or takes away from the argument at all?
  
• Lastly along with why I believed in my theories I also laid out a huge paragraph on why if my theory was incorrect the plot behind the FTG wouldnt make sense, you havent seemed to even try to discuss these inconsistencies, rather you hard on a few technicalities...

Apologies in advance if I come off as offensive, people say I can be when I really am not trying to be. Good discussion so far.

 

[End of Days]

1. It's FTG (Flying ThunderGod). Idk how you can mess that up.
2. I'm going to stick with the assumption that it's a reverse summon.

Good try.

this is the correct answer

The only problem with that Theory is that you cannot Summon yourself, because you cannot form a contract with yourself. So that theory doesnt explain how he uses the jutsu on himself. Or how he resummons himself somewhere else.

On top of that isnt blood required for summong? Yet he does this summoning without blood?

it is not a theory, its pretty much a fact

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[Lost Woods Denizen]

I am not offended, as I actually prefer debating the mechanics of things. I did not think that I would need to debate what a blood line limit actually meant, seeing as it was established early on what one was. And we were also given an explanation for the mechanics of the flying thunder god. You seem adamant to stick to your opinion that Minato has a kekkei genkai that we were not told about, so I will leave you to that. I believe that it is not, and the manga has also stated that it was a space-time ninjutsu. Until it is stated otherwise, my opinion remains stated fact, and yours remains theory. Until they say that it is possible to teach yourself a genetic trait found in someone else, Minato's jutsu remains a space-time ninjutsu, he has no kekkei genkai, and they three shinobi that were assigned to guard him know the technique because they were taught the seal for the technique.

 

[Kakashobito]

Re: [Fear] Truth behind the FTG (Flying Thunder God)[Updated]

[Before you post something claiming that I am wrong I ask that you provide some actual proof of it, it could be a link to a different site, a thread or even a scan, just dont post some nonsense telling me to go on a wild goose chase to find the contradicting proof you believe is out there somewhere.]

UPDATED As of 9:19PM - 3/17/2013 (Added stuff to the Mythology Section, Revised some parts throughout, Added to the Inconsistencies)

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It is my firm belief that the FTG[

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] otherwise known as the Flying ThunderGod Technique is a Kekie Genkia requiring both Lightning style[

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] and the Wind style[

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]. The premise behind this is that Minato was infact a Lightning style user.



Lightning Reference in Jutsu Name

• The Flying Thunder God technique otherwise known as the Flying Raijin Technique goes by another name in romji, that is Hiraishin no Jutsu. In romji the word Hiraishin translates to mean "Lightning Rod[
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  ]", this speaks to the fact that the technique requires seals as a form of Lightning rod attracting the "Lightning ".
• The fact that Minato was infact known as the "Yellow Flash", yellow flashes are also characteristics of Lightning and in many cases if you look up an image of a thunder bolt it will often be yellow. This is yet another Lightning style undertone.
• The other part of the name is "Flying" this to me references the fact that the jutsu requires Wind Style as well

Mythology

In the Japanese Folklore the Raijin (The Thunder God) is always accompanied with the Fujin, take a wild guess at what the Fujin is.. Thats right, the Wind God.

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Kishimoto is known for making parrallels between the Narutoverse and japanese folklore with some of his favorites being in jutsu, for instance.

• Izangi and Izanami are Japanese Gods envolved in an epic tragedy.
• In the tragedy Izanami is Izangi's Wife who ends up dying giving birth, Izangi goes to the underworld to bring her back but she cannot go with him, she then makes him promise not to look at her which he breaks by Lightning up a fire and looking at her, it is then that she chases after him and he escapes the underworld. As he leaves she says that she will kill 1000 people everyday to which he responds then 1,500 will be born everyday. In Naruto Izanami is Izangi's counter part and where one lets you escape your destiny and avoid death the other choses it for you granted you fulfill a certain condition.
• Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susan'o are the 3 Demi-God created by Izangi as he cleans himself after leaving the underworld.
• Tsukuyomi the God of the moon was created when he washed his left eye, Susan'o the god of the storms was created when he washed his nose and Amaterasu the goddess of the Sun was created when he washed his right eye.
• Totsuka is the sword Izangi uses to kill the child that Izanami bore during her pregnancy. It was afterwards passed down to Susan'o.

As you can see Kishimoto loves to make these parallels between the manga and kapanese lore and this is something people should take note of, So the question is when creating a technique that pays homage to the Thunder God (So much as to be named after him), Why would he neglect to also pay homage to his counter part the Wind God?



How the Jutsu Works

Minato starts the Jutsu by covering himself with Wind Chakra, much like the how Asuma incases his Brass Knuckles with Wind Chakra. He then Super Charges the Wind Chakra surrounding him with Lightning Style which compresses him reducing his body to a stream of Light (Which moves at 186,000 miles per second) which is then draw to whichever seal, like a Lightning rod,[

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] he was focusing on prior to using the technique, once it arrives it his body then materializes instantly.


Reasoning behind Hokage Guards supposed incompetance

Here are some inconsistencies you would find if my Theory was incorrect

• Another good reason for why my Theory works is because it explains why the "Hokage Guard[
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  ]" are not able to use the Jutsu individually. Minato was not regarded for having an extraordinarily large amount of Chakra and even at that he spams FTG so much that one would believe that even if it did require alot of chakra the average ninja would be able to use it at least once.
  
• What could possibly be the reason why a highly skilled ninja would not be able to use it, Genma Shiranui[
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  ] alone was a skilled ninja. Here are his stats from the DataBook[
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  ]:
  
  
  
  Ninjutsu-Taijutsu-Genjutsu-Intelligence-Strength-Speed-Stamina-Hand seals-Total
  4.5-----------3----------3-----------3-----------3--------3.5------3----------4--------27​
  
  Keep in mind that Hokage level Ninja max out at around 33-35 Total points. So why would a technique that a person with 33-35 Total points can use require 3 Ninja that are 27-30 Total points? Simple, Seperatatly they do not have the required Chakra Natures, but together they form a "MakeShift" Wind/Lightning Kekie Genkia user. And by coming together[
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  ] they can use a kekkie genkia that would normally require a single person possessing different Chakra Natures. Much like how Naruto uses his Rasengan, Normally the Rasengan would require one person to mix and gather the chakra in there hands. But Naruto bypasses that by using a clone and splitting the job into two different tasks. With that it is also possible that with 1 Lightning style user, 1 wind style user, and 1 person that molds the chakra a group of skilled ninja would be able to use a jutsu that would require 1 person to do all of that at the same time.

Response to Comments

I find it extremely hard to say that his Space-Time ninjutsu has no techs, In reference to the S-T Jutsu itself there are several different ways to make use of Space-Time Jutsu and everyone who uses it employs it in different ways. I believe that Minato uses the kekkie Genkia to employ S-T Jutsu. And so when you say "It is a S-T Ninjutsu that doesnt involve Lightning and wind" it is weird because the fact that it is an S-T Jutsu doesnt exclude the fact that it could also be a kekkie genkia.

You end by pairing S-T Jutsu's with Summoning Jutsu's, making Summonings the standard to which S-T Jutsu's are held to. And thus you say that S-T Jutsu's cannot require techs because Summonings do not require techs, but Summonings do require seals, we know that kamui is a type of S-T Jutsu and we know that Kamui does not require seals. What this shows is that S-T Jutsu come in different forms and sizes and just because one may not employ techs that does not mean the other cannot. That added with my above stated inconsistencies created if my theory is wrong we are left with a higher probability of me being right than wrong, and for you to say otherwise you will need to address my proposed inconsistencies .​

You are then left addressing why Minato could use the technique while it requires 3 highly skilled ninja (The Hokages Gaurd, so we know there not pushovers) to replicate the technique. Minato was not especially blessed as far as having an enourmous chakra pool and summoning/reverse summoning is fairly uncomplicated since almost every ninja can do it with relative ease.
​

Conclusion

The FTG is a kekkie genkia technique, much like hashirama's wood style jutsu, requiring someone to have both Lightning and wind style.

Thats where your Logic failed, kekkei genkkei is a bloodline limit. You cant just perform a kekkei genkkei by combining chakra natures-.-! Nice try...

 

[FearxDeath]

I am not offended, as I actually prefer debating the mechanics of things. I did not think that I would need to debate what a blood line limit actually meant, seeing as it was established early on what one was. And we were also given an explanation for the mechanics of the flying thunder god. You seem adamant to stick to your opinion that Minato has a kekkei genkai that we were not told about, so I will leave you to that. I believe that it is not, and the manga has also stated that it was a space-time ninjutsu. Until it is stated otherwise, my opinion remains stated fact, and yours remains theory. Until they say that it is possible to teach yourself a genetic trait found in someone else, Minato's jutsu remains a space-time ninjutsu, he has no kekkei genkai, and they three shinobi that were assigned to guard him know the technique because they were taught the seal for the technique.

I can see how I can look a little incredulous, but that is only because what I feel your are stating to be fact is not.

1) You say that the bloodline limit can only be passed on by blood. But the Jinchuriki's lava style and steam release are blood line limits that are not passed on by blood. So I was only saying that for your definition of the limit to be correct then the jinchuriki would not have those abilities. I secondly posted a qoute from the wiki that stated itself that "Other kekkei genkai include mixing one type of elemental chakra with another, creating a new one unique to the users, which is usually impossible for normal ninja." Here it clearly states that it is usually impossible, which itself hints towards exceptions to the rule.

2) You reference the fact that Minato's technique is a space-time jutsu, but any jutsu that manipulate space-time would be one. The term itself is not mutually exclusive, something can be both a space-time jutsu and a kekkia genkia.

3) Your mean reason for not believing what I am saying seems to be that it was not mentioned in the manga, but ofcourse it wasnt, if it wasnt I wouldnt have a reason to post this because it would be common knowledge. Just because kishimoto does not specifiically say that minato has a kekkia genkia doesnt mean he does not because kishi never says he doesnt have one either, there are alot of things kishi never directly says that we can infer to be probably by analyzing the series.

Lastly you still didnt answer my question, I would really like you to re-read my analysis of the inconsitencies surrounding the hokage guard again. The question isnt that the hokage taught them, the question is why would it require 3 of them, why wouldnt just one of them be able to do the technique, I elaborate on this in the thread.

It seems we may have to agree to disagree on this one, but keep in mind that this is a theory and by definition theories are not really meant to be taken as absolute facts. Theories are just things that could be possible/likely based on the evidences I give. If we both agree that it is likely or possible then ive done my job, but for you to say it isnt likely or impossible then you would have to show why, that is what I feel you havent done adequately.

 

[TheCCV]

It would be so freaking awesome if it was a KKG.

 

[FearxDeath]

It would be so freaking awesome if it was a KKG.

It could be