valandil988
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
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I previously posted this in a previous thread but didn't get any feed back on what people thought about it so I decided to post it as a separate thread.
Origin of the Juubi?
The vaguely humanoid shape of the Gedo Mazo suggest a man made origin. Possibly from the "ninja" or chakra practitioners of the time. what do we know about this time. The sage was likely an adept in Senjutsu that much is pretty sure about him. Most users of chakra likely knew it as magic of some sort or other. The sage discovered the "truth" about chakra...he didn't create it so it must have been around a long time before, he created the "science" of chakra basically ninjutsu and genjutsu, I doubt he created them as a school of techniques he just figured out what everyone was likely already doing.
The rinnegan and the body both come from the juubi...so that leaves very little to go on really. We know the Juubi is a big mass of out of control senjutsu chakra...that may or may not have a mind of its own. If it has no mind it couldnt have been around for very long...ie it came into existence within the sages lifetime.
If it did have a mind then it could have been around a very long time except it was a peaceful creature. In which case this suggests some sort of spiritual origin.
My reasoning for this is the human race would have gone extinct long before the sage came along had the juubi been nothing but a mass of chakra and been around for ages. But if it was a relatively new creature with no mind it had to be created around the same time the sage was born or was alive.
Lets work with the reasoning that the Juubi is mindless. This means that the Juubi had to come into existence during the lifetime of the Sage.
To grapple this this we have to take a closer look at Senjutsu as we know it. Could it be that the Toad Slug and Snake versions of sage mode are actually safe guards...the fact that Senjutsu was passed onto the summoning clans (which require contracts) yet not the families of the sage is very interesting. Could it be that the sage altered the summoning contracts to actually kill the users of Senjutsu if they couldn't control the nature chakra. And the only way to learn of Senjutsu and to train in it was to be a user of one of these contracts...
Another question is why is Senjutsu so unknown to everyone and almost completely unpracticed if its so powerful...you would think a person like Madara would pursue it in his quest for power if it was well known. Again the question why didnt the sage pass down his teachings of Senjutsu to his family...
The sage we can assume was an unaligned user of Senjutsu without the usual animal like transformations (which never made sense to me)...could it be that when the Sage tried to teach Senjutsu to others...or at least an apprentice or even his "original" eldest son or daughter they couldn't control it and transformed...a sage transformation with no limits or death guards to kill the user. Senjutsu poured into the vessel in an unlimited fashion...if the body doesn't die then what happens? Perhaps this transformation gave rise to the Juubi a physical avatar or vessel of nature chakra. If the mind wasnt destroyed it would certainly be broken by such an experience and hence completely unreasonable. The fact it is an unaligned sage transformation could also explain the humanoid appearance of the Gedo Mazo...its certainly not an animal transformation...
It would also explain the fatherly relationship the sage has with the tailed beasts. The beasts he created would in essance be the salvaged consciousness of his eldest eldest son or apprentice...or daughter who ever.
Jugo's clan have a limit on how much sage chakra they can accumulate (if they didnt they would be just like the Juubi)...but unlike the toads sage mode you don't die using it without perfect balance...Senjutsu seems to have different rules for different users....though I can't see how DNA would effect how someone can use senjutsu. Jugo's clan seem like another example of forced limits.
Well thats it make what you will of my thoughts, its not really a theory as such more of a hypothesis using what little we know about that time.
Conclusion:
The Juubi was the first attempt of the Sage teaching Senjutsu to someone without safe guards that kill the user creating a physical vessel of the worlds infinite Senjutsu. When said student couldn't control the nature chakra they lost balance and the senjutsu overwhelmed them but didn't kill them. Creating the Juubi. After this failure the Sage passed on the senjutsu teachings only to the summoning clans not his family for fear of thier inability to control it. He altered the sealing summoning contracts to influence users of senjutsu to kill them if they fail to keep control i.e. stone toads etc Bare in mind for more detail and reasoning read the full text.
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Also I am sure I'm about to get alot of people saying "Wot?! teh sage had the rinnegan and Body from birth and beat dah juubi" yeah anyone with half a brain knows that didnt happen and the Rinnegan and the Body are derived from the influence the Juubi had on the sage after becoming its jinchuriki...so please if you don't agree with that aspect move on to the rest of the theory and give me your thoughts on that. This is not a thread to talk about whether the sage had the Rinnegan and the body before fighting the juubi or not.
Origin of the Juubi?
The vaguely humanoid shape of the Gedo Mazo suggest a man made origin. Possibly from the "ninja" or chakra practitioners of the time. what do we know about this time. The sage was likely an adept in Senjutsu that much is pretty sure about him. Most users of chakra likely knew it as magic of some sort or other. The sage discovered the "truth" about chakra...he didn't create it so it must have been around a long time before, he created the "science" of chakra basically ninjutsu and genjutsu, I doubt he created them as a school of techniques he just figured out what everyone was likely already doing.
The rinnegan and the body both come from the juubi...so that leaves very little to go on really. We know the Juubi is a big mass of out of control senjutsu chakra...that may or may not have a mind of its own. If it has no mind it couldnt have been around for very long...ie it came into existence within the sages lifetime.
If it did have a mind then it could have been around a very long time except it was a peaceful creature. In which case this suggests some sort of spiritual origin.
My reasoning for this is the human race would have gone extinct long before the sage came along had the juubi been nothing but a mass of chakra and been around for ages. But if it was a relatively new creature with no mind it had to be created around the same time the sage was born or was alive.
Lets work with the reasoning that the Juubi is mindless. This means that the Juubi had to come into existence during the lifetime of the Sage.
To grapple this this we have to take a closer look at Senjutsu as we know it. Could it be that the Toad Slug and Snake versions of sage mode are actually safe guards...the fact that Senjutsu was passed onto the summoning clans (which require contracts) yet not the families of the sage is very interesting. Could it be that the sage altered the summoning contracts to actually kill the users of Senjutsu if they couldn't control the nature chakra. And the only way to learn of Senjutsu and to train in it was to be a user of one of these contracts...
Another question is why is Senjutsu so unknown to everyone and almost completely unpracticed if its so powerful...you would think a person like Madara would pursue it in his quest for power if it was well known. Again the question why didnt the sage pass down his teachings of Senjutsu to his family...
The sage we can assume was an unaligned user of Senjutsu without the usual animal like transformations (which never made sense to me)...could it be that when the Sage tried to teach Senjutsu to others...or at least an apprentice or even his "original" eldest son or daughter they couldn't control it and transformed...a sage transformation with no limits or death guards to kill the user. Senjutsu poured into the vessel in an unlimited fashion...if the body doesn't die then what happens? Perhaps this transformation gave rise to the Juubi a physical avatar or vessel of nature chakra. If the mind wasnt destroyed it would certainly be broken by such an experience and hence completely unreasonable. The fact it is an unaligned sage transformation could also explain the humanoid appearance of the Gedo Mazo...its certainly not an animal transformation...
It would also explain the fatherly relationship the sage has with the tailed beasts. The beasts he created would in essance be the salvaged consciousness of his eldest eldest son or apprentice...or daughter who ever.
Jugo's clan have a limit on how much sage chakra they can accumulate (if they didnt they would be just like the Juubi)...but unlike the toads sage mode you don't die using it without perfect balance...Senjutsu seems to have different rules for different users....though I can't see how DNA would effect how someone can use senjutsu. Jugo's clan seem like another example of forced limits.
Well thats it make what you will of my thoughts, its not really a theory as such more of a hypothesis using what little we know about that time.
Conclusion:
The Juubi was the first attempt of the Sage teaching Senjutsu to someone without safe guards that kill the user creating a physical vessel of the worlds infinite Senjutsu. When said student couldn't control the nature chakra they lost balance and the senjutsu overwhelmed them but didn't kill them. Creating the Juubi. After this failure the Sage passed on the senjutsu teachings only to the summoning clans not his family for fear of thier inability to control it. He altered the sealing summoning contracts to influence users of senjutsu to kill them if they fail to keep control i.e. stone toads etc Bare in mind for more detail and reasoning read the full text.
---------------------------------------
Also I am sure I'm about to get alot of people saying "Wot?! teh sage had the rinnegan and Body from birth and beat dah juubi" yeah anyone with half a brain knows that didnt happen and the Rinnegan and the Body are derived from the influence the Juubi had on the sage after becoming its jinchuriki...so please if you don't agree with that aspect move on to the rest of the theory and give me your thoughts on that. This is not a thread to talk about whether the sage had the Rinnegan and the body before fighting the juubi or not.
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