[VS] (Kages) vs (DrProof) Kakashi vs Kisame Debate!

[CharlieBundels]

Interested to see Proof's counter to Kamui. I honestly was under the impression Kakashi could one shot him, but lets see if he can change my mind.

 

[Amaterasuice]

Which is why these kinds of threads should be made in private since random people aren't allowed to join in which is the whole purpose of a forum. A private debate should be made in private, period.

A lot of people agree with me actually.


Think before you post and who you're siding with kid

Are you a judge? No? Then shut up. -_-

Anyway, I'm going to be watching this from a distance. For the most part. So, yeah. I'm intrigued.

 

[DrProof]

Spoiler

How Kakashi can beat Kisame​

How Kakashi counters Water Dome
Kakashi has shown a way to counter this specific technique many times in the manga, but the best choice would be to use Raiton in the water. The technique that Kakashi would use would be Lightning Cutter on the water to electrify the water and roast Kisame, getting Kisame to unsummoned as he doesn't want to die by the lightning. You may say Kakashi doesn't have enough chakra to channel lightning through all of the dome, but he can direct it to only where Kisame is, like he did against Pain with Lightning Beast Running Technique.

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How Kakashi counters regular Water Release techniques

Kakashi can copy, cancel out, and use almost every Water Release technique Kisame has to offer. Of course, the ones he has enough chakra for. Kakashi is said to copy techniques that arent KKG, which Kisame has none of. This was also shown when Kakashi fought Kisame in Part 1.

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Kakashi against Samehada

Kakashi has displayed many speed feats great enough to dodge Samehada's slashes. Not to mention the technique Kakashi used in this link would be a good counter to some of Kisame's Water Release techniques.

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Kakashi can also use Mystical Palm to heal from Samehada's slash. If Kakashi's dogs are already out, then they can give him chakra to display the Mystical Palm. Kakashi's strength can also stop Samehada for at least 2 seconds, because he stopped and broke Pain's black rod.

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Also Kakashi can use Kamui On Kisame's head to kill him and therefore win the battle.


Phew, sorry that took me a while to do. I know I forgot some techniques of Kisame but I will counter those later

Kakashi Doesn't Counter Kisame's Water Dome


Your main point here is that Kakashi counters Kisame's water dome via Raikiri redirection correct? Well this is a false claim indeed I see how you got the inception that lightning is deadlier in water, which is correct, however the fact that this isn't regular electricity this is lightning based CHAKRA changes the situation all together.

Kisame when conjuring up his Water Prison Shark Dance technique fuses with Samehada which allows him to absorb all chakra passively. Thus Kakashi's imbued Raiton chakra would nevertheless be ineffective causing this counter futile.

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Kisame is also said to track others chakra while him, and Samehada are conjoined.

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To add one to Kakashi's death here, I will also add this scan "Kisame is faster underwater".

Spoiler

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Mimicing Kisame's Suiton/Defending Against Samehada Is Moot


There would be no point in mimicing Kisame's Water based technique due to him having near limitless chakra (hence why he is referred to as the Tailless tailed beast) thus' his chakra would constantly be replenished in the end his attacks would just increase, while as Kakashi's would decrease due to his depletion in chakra.

Your point on Kakashi defending against Kisame's Samehada is noteable I suppose, however I don't really see Kisame using it for Taijutsu in this fight rather for absorbing chakra. Also Kakashi does not possess Mystical Palm the people who DO possess such a technique are listed here:

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This wasn't really a well thought out category, however your next counter as to how Kakashi can defeat Kisame is the most interesting in which I will address it now.

Kisame CAN Counter Kamui



What is Kamui first of all? Kamui is CHAKRA focused from the users Sharingan deployed to which bends time itself; transports the users target into a different dimension at the use/suspense of CHAKRA. The key word in this is chakra, why exactly? Isn't it obvious? Every jutsu that can be absorbed is related to chakra somehow, and this is one of those occasions.

Some may be iffy to except such a fact, but since Kamui is chakra itself it can, and it will be absorbed by Samehada.

Spoiler

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The databook itself states that no JUTSU can counter Kamui, however Samehada isn't a jutsu it's a legendary weapon with the power to absorb chakra.. It also states that Kamui requires chakra to use, thus I believe this is how chakra is deployed within the Sharingan.

Spoiler

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As seen in the scan above, a user has chakra points in their head (eyes) thus' the chakra builds up when using Kamui directing strain (cause of unavoidable blindness overtime) then deploys the techniques at the user, no matter how fast Kamui may seem to be Samehada is able to absorb the said attack due to it's large size (more range to absorb) etc..

However, I don't think Kakashi would make it out of Kisame's Water Shark Prison Jutsu.

 

[Kages]

Proof I will counter your arguement tomorrow; I'm really busy, sorry, but I will definitely get to it in a couple of hours

 

[DrProof]

Proof I will counter your arguement tomorrow; I'm really busy, sorry, but I will definitely get to it in a couple of hours

Not a problem.

 

[Owarij]

Yeaa, I guessed that would be the counter you was thinking of

 

[DrProof]

Yeaa, I guessed that would be the counter you was thinking of

Was it legit? =DD

 

[Owarij]

Was it legit? =DD

Theoretically yea, though we don't know for sure if it distorts only on the familiar plane and not also the alien one

 

[Gold Lightning]

Can I just say that I think it's ridiculous to think Sahmehada can absorb Kamui. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Bijuu13]

Can I just say that I think it's ridiculous to think Sahmehada can absorb Kamui. That's just my opinion though.

lol Yea I'd say so myself .. The chakra is coming from the sharingan and user, not the location in which the Kamui is being casted. But let them do their argument

 

[Kages]

Kakashi Doesn't Counter Kisame's Water Dome


Your main point here is that Kakashi counters Kisame's water dome via Raikiri redirection correct? Well this is a false claim indeed I see how you got the inception that lightning is deadlier in water, which is correct, however the fact that this isn't regular electricity this is lightning based CHAKRA changes the situation all together.

Kisame when conjuring up his Water Prison Shark Dance technique fuses with Samehada which allows him to absorb all chakra passively. Thus Kakashi's imbued Raiton chakra would nevertheless be ineffective causing this counter futile.

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Kisame is also said to track others chakra while him, and Samehada are conjoined.

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To add one to Kakashi's death here, I will also add this scan "Kisame is faster underwater".

Spoiler

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Mimicing Kisame's Suiton/Defending Against Samehada Is Moot


There would be no point in mimicing Kisame's Water based technique due to him having near limitless chakra (hence why he is referred to as the Tailless tailed beast) thus' his chakra would constantly be replenished in the end his attacks would just increase, while as Kakashi's would decrease due to his depletion in chakra.

Your point on Kakashi defending against Kisame's Samehada is noteable I suppose, however I don't really see Kisame using it for Taijutsu in this fight rather for absorbing chakra. Also Kakashi does not possess Mystical Palm the people who DO possess such a technique are listed here:

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This wasn't really a well thought out category, however your next counter as to how Kakashi can defeat Kisame is the most interesting in which I will address it now.

Kisame CAN Counter Kamui



What is Kamui first of all? Kamui is CHAKRA focused from the users Sharingan deployed to which bends time itself; transports the users target into a different dimension at the use/suspense of CHAKRA. The key word in this is chakra, why exactly? Isn't it obvious? Every jutsu that can be absorbed is related to chakra somehow, and this is one of those occasions.

Some may be iffy to except such a fact, but since Kamui is chakra itself it can, and it will be absorbed by Samehada.

Spoiler

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The databook itself states that no JUTSU can counter Kamui, however Samehada isn't a jutsu it's a legendary weapon with the power to absorb chakra.. It also states that Kamui requires chakra to use, thus I believe this is how chakra is deployed within the Sharingan.

Spoiler

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As seen in the scan above, a user has chakra points in their head (eyes) thus' the chakra builds up when using Kamui directing strain (cause of unavoidable blindness overtime) then deploys the techniques at the user, no matter how fast Kamui may seem to be Samehada is able to absorb the said attack due to it's large size (more range to absorb) etc..

However, I don't think Kakashi would make it out of Kisame's Water Shark Prison Jutsu.

Countering Water Dome

Your arguement is valid I suppose. You are correct that Raiton would get absorbed however, if that doesn't work, Kakashi can always try Kamui on himself. He would Kamui himself, which he can, out of the dome to the parallel world, then transfer back out of the dome, then keep shooting large range attacks on Kisame. One of the attacks I'm talking about would Kakashi to summon his dogs, and they would give him chakra, then he can use a giant earth Wall which he would then have chakra for. You might say the dogs don't have enough chakra; no problem, Kakashi has been seen to use Kamui many times in this war, even on a Tailed Beast. This was without Kyuubi chakra, the Kyuubi only restored him to full health, not gave him more chakra than he needed. Besides, Kisame will use this technique at the start of the battle as he isn't stupid enough to toy with Kakashi from the start and I believe the intent is to kill. Kakashi had enough chakra to even transport Gyuki, like I already mentioned, which is at least 1/4 the size of the dome so I believe he would have enough chakra to make a giant earth wall that is taller and larger than the dome, but I admit this would waste at least 1/4 of his chakra. I'm,not a Kakashi fan or anything but I believe this would happen. It's tentacle is still huge but I still believe that with the 8+ dogs' chakra and his chakra he would be able to use the wall.

Spoiler

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To add on to that, this thread may also help clear some things up about Kakashi/Gyuki and Kamui.

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Thanks Bogard, lol. :scorps:

Kakashi's Water Release against Samehada

While its true that Samehada can absorb all Water Release techniques Kakashi throws, Samehada will be in Kisame's hand and he won't allow it to move on it's own, that's how he fights. Kisame will be too distracted at using his Water Release in which Kakashi copies the technique just as fast as the user.

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Also, it is said that they copy techniques

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Even Zabuza said that Kakashi used the technique

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Zabuza again stated Kakashi made the technique

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Kisame will be too distracted using the technique to have Samehada absorb it, plus Samehada can't fly if the technique is used in the air, like almost every technique of Kisame has. The technique is in the air,

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Kisame against Kamui

Your arguement seems legit, but it is hard to believe. I guess Samehada possibly could absorb Kamui, but Kakashi would separate Samehada from Kisame before Kisame fuses with it or even has it with him. I say this because Kakashi dogs would distract Kisame while Kakashi throws Samehada. I know Samehada's spikes would hurt Kakashi, but Mystical Palm might heal him. To counter your Mystical Palm arguement, you are probably correct. However, Kakashi would only have to transfer chakra through his hand to heal him. I know it's not Mystical Palm, yet it would still channel chakra through his nerves and would heal him. Anyway, back on Kamui topic, even,if Samehada isn't separated from him, Samehada can't absorb as quick as Kakashi can use Kamui, so if Kakashi uses Kamui twice, Samehada wil still be focused on the first one. I know that this might be hard to understand but please try to. It wasn't even able to suck up all the chakra of Itachi's Fire Ball technique

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So Samehada isn't that quick to suck up chakra very much. So to sum it up it will be too focused on the first Kamui but Kakashi can always make a shadow clone to use the other Kamui. If all these

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use Kamui on Kisame then Samehada won't have near enough time to suck up all the Kamui. Remember that I'm not saying Kakashi has enough chakra, but at least 5 shadow clones can which would be enough as Samehada isn't that quick to suck up chakra so one of them will eventually get at least one of Kisame's body parts, preferably his head to end the battle.

Nice counters and sorry this took a while

 

[DrProof]

Kakashi doesn't have Mystical Palm Kages.

 

[Kages]

Kakashi doesn't have Mystical Palm Kages.

I know I conceded from that arguement

 

[DrProof]

I know I conceded from that arguement

No use in mentioning what he hasn't shown then.

 

[Kages]

No use in mentioning what he hasn't shown then.

Well sorry :shrug:

 

[Booker]

Kisame is not countering Kamui, which is unfortunate because otherwise Kisame would wreck.

 

[Kages]

Kisame is not countering Kamui, which is unfortunate because otherwise Kisame would wreck.

It's plausible but I agree with you that Kakashi would win (I think you think so)

 

[BloodSeed]

kakashi>kisame im kishimoto!!!!

 

[Bogard]

Nice debate here. It can be interesting. Just wanted to show a jutsu Kakashi can use to come out of the water dome if he really wants. Not sure if he really wants to fight inside Kisame's territory, so it's more likely that in this situation, he would try to get out of it. He can use the

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he

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. In fact this technique allowed Kisame

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and cover an insane distance that Gai needed

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, plus

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, plus

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to actually manage

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and he even arrived later when Kisame had already

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[pateuvasiliu]

Kisame may or may not be able to absorb Kamui ( which seems ridiculous to me ) but Kakashi should be able to make a Kamui of such a big scale that it absorbs Kisame before Samehada can absorb all of Kamui ( think how he Kamui'd the Eight Tails. Kisame is but a fraction of that beast's size ).