Why Madara Could Break ET But Tobirama Can't

PrinceMyshkin

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For those of you who somehow still don't understand why Madara was able to break the Edo Tensei I will explain it to you in the way that I understand it, and explain why Tobirama will be unable to do the same thing.

1. The Misconception

"Madara broke out of the Edo Tensei because he is an Uchiha badass who is too strong to be constrained by the Edo Tensei"

This seems to be the most common misconception. I see people saying that no Uchiha can be Edo Tensei'd because he broke out of it, or that people think he broke out of it because he was so powerful that Kabuto couldn't control him. Let me go over why this is wrong.

Another misconception is that Madara's talisman was special and this is why he was able to break Kabuto's control, but this is also wrong which I will show.

2. How the Edo Tensei works

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As you can see the Edo Tensei works by taking the body of a dead person and using it as a vessel for the soul of another. But that's not the important part for my purposes. The most important part is where Kabuto says that the ET is a variant of the summoning techinique.

Now as we know summoning techniques require contracts this can be seen as Naruto signs the contract with the toads in order to be able to summon his toads.

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3. The Theory about the Edo Tensei

My theory about the Edo Tensei is that like any other summoning jutsu it requires a contract between the summoner and the one who is summoned. This means that when Kabuto summons his Edo Tensei summons he not only is bringing their souls back into the world by having a dead body act as a medium, but that he also has a summoning contract with each soul that he summons back.

4. The Risk of the Edo Tensei

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According to my theory of the Edo Tensei, Kabuto establishes a summoning contract with the dead souls he brings back to the world. This is the one risk of the Edo Tensei.

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As we can see Minato is able to rip away Obito's contract with Kurama. I believe that this is exactly what Madara was able to do to break free of Kabuto's control.

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I believe that what Madara is doing here is taking control of his own summoning contract which Kabuto abandoned when he released the Edo Tensei.

5. Why can Madara take control of his own summoning contract but Tobirama can't?

I believe that the key difference in these two cases is that Kabuto released the Edo Tensei whereas Orochimaru has never actually released Tobirama. Tobirama has been sealed once and resummoned, but we've never seen Orochimaru use the signs to undo the jutsu.

Why this is important.
1. Edo Tensei summons can momentarily control their summoned bodies and use jutsu when the Edo Tensei is released via hand signs.

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This means that as Kabuto released the ET Madara was able to act on his own and use his own jutsu/hand signs.

2. Releasing the ET releases the summoning contract.

This is important because it means that by releasing his jutsu, Kabuto forfeited his contract with Madara's soul, which allowed Madara (who was now able to use his own jutsu) to establish a summoning contract with his own soul using his Edo body.

6. Conclusion

Madara now owns his own soul's summoning contract. If Madara weaved the seals to undo the Edo Tensei himself he could release his summoning contract and unsummon himself. This is important because the circumstances of Madara breaking the ET were never available to Tobirama. This means if Orochimaru undid his jutsu Tobirama could "break out" the same way Madara did. There is no plot hole, we just have circumstances surrounding Madara's edo that Tobirama never had.
 

medal32

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maybe the senju bros will break out when the "talk" will be over
 

KGB Kakuzu

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The simplicity of the matter is that the seal simply breaks the contract of Edo Tensei, and thus the Edo body operates freely.

Tobirama was incapable of doing so in his first fight because he was robbed of his free will. Madara on the other hand, was given complete control by Kabuto. With this, he could choose to break the contract whenever he found it fit to do so. Tobirama currently is in that same position; however, the minute he starts weaving hand seals, he is immobilized and loses his will by Orochimaru.

It is all a concept of timing for Tobirama where Madara had free will. Also, he performed it while Kabuto was under a genjutsu, and thus incapable of stopping him even if he figured out what he was doing! Orochimaru is completely focused on the Hokages, and as such Tobirama has this restriction on him.
 

Orochimaruofthesound

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The simplicity of the matter is that the seal simply breaks the contract of Edo Tensei, and thus the Edo body operates freely.

Tobirama was incapable of doing so in his first fight because he was robbed of his free will. Madara on the other hand, was given complete control by Kabuto. With this, he could choose to break the contract whenever he found it fit to do so. Tobirama currently is in that same position; however, the minute he starts weaving hand seals, he is immobilized and loses his will by Orochimaru.

It is all a concept of timing for Tobirama where Madara had free will. Also, he performed it while Kabuto was under a genjutsu, and thus incapable of stopping him even if he figured out what he was doing! Orochimaru is completely focused on the Hokages, and as such Tobirama has this restriction on him.

this well thought out
 

MorphyRulez

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Well Thank you, Somebody have to post that thread. I'm too lazy for these things.+ Another misunderstanding i see from some threads. Itachi did'nt break Edo Tensei. He just removed Kabuto's Talisman thanks to KA, He programmed himself kinda... If he was, break edo tensei, he would dissappear. It's another story... rep for explanation, it's really needed.
 

medal32

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The simplicity of the matter is that the seal simply breaks the contract of Edo Tensei, and thus the Edo body operates freely.

Tobirama was incapable of doing so in his first fight because he was robbed of his free will. Madara on the other hand, was given complete control by Kabuto. With this, he could choose to break the contract whenever he found it fit to do so. Tobirama currently is in that same position; however, the minute he starts weaving hand seals, he is immobilized and loses his will by Orochimaru.

It is all a concept of timing for Tobirama where Madara had free will. Also, he performed it while Kabuto was under a genjutsu, and thus incapable of stopping him even if he figured out what he was doing! Orochimaru is completely focused on the Hokages, and as such Tobirama has this restriction on him.

yay, someone who isnt bat**** crazy
 

-Tremendous-

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Read the whole thing and half of what you said is true well no one can't predict the contract and the risks.
 

TheRedAndGreenBeast

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Wasn't Madara only able to break ET because he was being released?
 

Pragmatic

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Agreed, the reason Madara could break free from the Edo Tensei is because Kabuto was not "Controling" his actions at the time he was letting him do his own thing, allowing Madara to preform the hand seals to release him from Kabuto's control.
 

PrinceMyshkin

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The only reason why I think he might have established his own contract with himself is that if he didn't then wouldn't any other ET user (Orochimaru) who has his DNA be able to establish a contract with Madara and control his edo body?
 

Shinobi God

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that doesnt mean tobirama cant break free, he is the one created the technique which implies that he knows the seal to break free leaving there 95% probability of him breaking free
 

FearxDeath

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Your argument is founded on the premise that Madara couldnt break out of the jutsu ealier, when it is quite likely that he just didnt need to. He already had full control so wasting time revealing that he could break out of the jutsu was pointless. It wasnt until the jutsu was release did madara undo the jutsu.

Regarding tobirama's situation he also has no reason to undo the jutsu. Remember the first thing he asks Orochimaru is if he is going to have them attack konoha again, Oro says no and then they move on. At this point Sasuke and Orochimaru are not threats and and answering questions about the Uchiha's past does no harm. So as of now Tobirama is giving Oro and Sasuke the illusion of control in order to have there gaurds lowered, also getting them to answer some of the hokages questions about the current condition of konoha etc... As soon as the situation changes he will undo the jutsu and go on the offensive. But just like madara, at this current moment he has no reason to undo the jutsu, especially if he has no clue why he was summoned or what is going on around them... No doubt he has felt the chakra of the Juubi.
 

madarasasuke5

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Like 4 madara kabuto gave him d free will dat y he was able to break it bt with tobirama he may as well think along dat line.
 

PrinceMyshkin

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Your argument is founded on the premise that Madara couldnt break out of the jutsu ealier, when it is quite likely that he just didnt need to. He already had full control so wasting time revealing that he could break out of the jutsu was pointless. It wasnt until the jutsu was release did madara undo the jutsu.

Regarding tobirama's situation he also has no reason to undo the jutsu. Remember the first thing he asks Orochimaru is if he is going to have them attack konoha again, Oro says no and then they move on. At this point Sasuke and Orochimaru are not threats and and answering questions about the Uchiha's past does no harm. So as of now Tobirama is giving Oro and Sasuke the illusion of control in order to have there gaurds lowered, also getting them to answer some of the hokages questions about the current condition of konoha etc... As soon as the situation changes he will undo the jutsu and go on the offensive. But just like madara, at this current moment he has no reason to undo the jutsu, especially if he has no clue why he was summoned or what is going on around them... No doubt he has felt the chakra of the Juubi.

That's a correct assessment of my premise. The reason I think that Madara would've broken free earlier if he could is because of his Uchiha pride. Somehow I don't think it's in line with his character to be a pawn. Sure he had free will, but every second he was considered to be controlled by Kabuto degraded his name. Pride isn't something practical so I don't think him being "practically" free is good enough to satisfy his pride.
 
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