[SPOILERS] Tobirama/Danzo =/= Hashirama/Hiruzen

[Chatte]

Ok, so I've wanted to discuss some things since the new chapters is up. It's just me or Danzo's way of leadership is similar to Tobirama's and Hiruzen's to Hashirama?
We all know that Danzo took some harsh decisions, morally debatable however, politically correct since it was for the protection of the village, in the end. However, Hiruzen was more caring like Hashirama's type.
So I was wondering...could Tobirama have been Danzo's master and Hashirama Hiruzen's? Or both Hashirama and Tobirama trained Danzo and Hiruzen and each of them took different paths? Because as we've seen in this last chapter, Tobirama seems to be more like Danzo, leading his people with an "iron hand" to say like this, while Hashirama seems to be caring towards his people like Hiruzen was.
So, what's your input on this? Thoughts? Do you agree with what they did? Both Tobirama and Danzo. Don't? Let's discuss!
But, I ask you all, let's have a nice and polite debate or else I'll close this down in the immediate moment someone goes overboard.
Thanks!

 

[MrSimple]

There's a difference between Danzo and Tobirama. Danzo cared for the village only and Tobirama cared for his clan firstly and then the village.

 

[Kurama04]

Yea I agree

 

[Chatte]

There's a difference between Danzo and Tobirama. Danzo cared for the village only and Tobirama cared for his clan firstly and then the village.

Actually, I'd argue that. Danzo didn't cared for the village only. He wanted the position as Hokage. He did many not so good things, to say like that, in order to get it. There were both personal interests and village interests in the middle.
And Tobirama, as I previously stated, did this not quite for his clan. Did it as a back-up plan for the village given the fact that he was right not to trust into the Uchihas. And since the both clans have been fighting for a long time, it was only a back-up plan in case they go rebels.
This manga chapter only enforces the idea.

 

[Miuku24]

Not sure if it was in the anime or manga, but Tobirama Gave the title of hokage to hiruzen at the war, when someone had to stay as a decoy, and hiruzen said he should stay before danzo did.. So im thinking tobirama was either both of their master, and maybe hiruzen also knew hashi? I dont know, to be honest. But you're indeed right, they are similar to one another.
Also, of what Tobirama did, I understand him giving the police force over for the uchicha, their eyes, are superior, and the yare strong, thus making for a perfect police task force. the problem is, he did corner them a bit to much. hiruzen, should in my opinion, have tried to change that, and give them, maybe a bigger role in the village, and maybe even a change at becoming hokage instead of this killing? maybe he should of appointed itachi as a hokage?
As of Danzo, I dont agree for what he did, Alright he did protect the village, that was his ultimate goal, but he did go around in the wrong way to do so. It seemed to me, that all he cared about, was to be hokage, and everything else were a side matter to him..

So in conclusion, Tobirama, was good, and I understand what he did, and there is nothing wrong with it in a way. Danzo was a good guy in a Discuise, and dont like him. Hiruzen could of changed things in my opinion. And Hashi... just a badass cant believe he actually made the village with madara and others..

 

[GenKiDama]

Danzo was more the darker side of konoha while I think tobirama was just down to earth on what he wanted done and wasn't afraid to do so

 

[chibi kyuubi]

yea.. i agree that it looks like danzo followed tobirama's style of leadership while hiruzen followed hashis. it makes sense with them carrying on the leadership of the village and carrying on the clash of idealoligies on how to lead the village. on a side note your post reminded me of when tobirama died and we got the flashback.
maybe hiruzen was in hashirama's 3 man team and danzo was in tobirama's 3 man team
i think i remember 6 ninjas with tobirama at the time.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

the chapter page of 481 shows the two teams.
the team that hashi lead consisting of hiruzen n the elders
n tobirama had danzo n the uchiha n akimichi.
with hashirama dead tobirama leads them all on this mission.

post script... i know we saw hiruzen being trained by both senju bros. well maybe they noticed how nice he was and lavished some brotherly attention on him. because they knew he was the best one to protect the leaf for them.

 

[Thane]

And then Tobirama died without any major ramifications or impact on the story.

Just like Danzo.

 

[GenKiDama]

Not sure if it was in the anime or manga, but Tobirama Gave the title of hokage to hiruzen at the war, when someone had to stay as a decoy, and hiruzen said he should stay before danzo did.. So im thinking tobirama was either both of their master, and maybe hiruzen also knew hashi? I dont know, to be honest. But you're indeed right, they are similar to one another.
Also, of what Tobirama did, I understand him giving the police force over for the uchicha, their eyes, are superior, and the yare strong, thus making for a perfect police task force. the problem is, he did corner them a bit to much. hiruzen, should in my opinion, have tried to change that, and give them, maybe a bigger role in the village, and maybe even a change at becoming hokage instead of this killing? maybe he should of appointed itachi as a hokage?
As of Danzo, I dont agree for what he did, Alright he did protect the village, that was his ultimate goal, but he did go around in the wrong way to do so. It seemed to me, that all he cared about, was to be hokage, and everything else were a side matter to him..

So in conclusion, Tobirama, was good, and I understand what he did, and there is nothing wrong with it in a way. Danzo was a good guy in a Discuise, and dont like him. Hiruzen could of changed things in my opinion. And Hashi... just a badass cant believe he actually made the village with madara and others..

Hashirama taught hiruzen if I remember properly

 

[Kikki]

Good thoughts. I fully agree but I still have that slight feeling that Tobirama could turn out to be a traitor. There are two possible ways: he either deeply cares for the safetly of the village and puts it over the single individual. He shunned and outcasted a group of people because he cared for the village only. That would just be like Danzo's way (Danzo was powerhungry though, I wonder if Tobirama was).

Or could it be that Kishi will go further with his plot twist and show Tobirama did even worse? His words were strong like those of a fanatic or even like those of some traitor who pulled the strings and did even worse? We will have to wait and see. That would be interesting.

The big deal is probably not even the background story. Kishi attempts to make Sasuke's decision harder. Sasuke is about to find out how his clan was a victim. He will probably see how his own revenge will become legit and understandable. BUT... the question is, will he follow in his brothers' footsteps and put the village over his beloved? The harder the decision, the more interesting it will be. That's why the chapter is like it is and will probably show even more reasons for the Uchiha.

 

[~Zonta~]

yeah it may sound like that but Tobirama was not obessed as Danzo was his measure to protect the village were based on resonings were as Danzo's resonings were far too crude IMO such as the curse seal and root....

Hashirama is just like Naruto hehe I thought he would be serious but he is totally like Naruto and Tsunade hehehe

I already started liking him even more now hehehe

 

[Chatte]

Not sure if it was in the anime or manga, but Tobirama Gave the title of hokage to hiruzen at the war, when someone had to stay as a decoy, and hiruzen said he should stay before danzo did.. So im thinking tobirama was either both of their master, and maybe hiruzen also knew hashi? I dont know, to be honest. But you're indeed right, they are similar to one another.

It was in the manga as well. The thing is, from my part at least, Tobirama created some sort of plan back there, to see who was brave enough to offer himself as a decoy, that would be the one to be Hokage. The whole thing with to die to protect your village, etc. And since Hiruzen offered first, Tobirama picked him. From Danzo's flashbacks we saw he was kind of scared and that led to his jealousy on Hiruzen.
As for the masters thing, I do remember a picture from the anime with both Tobirama and Hashirama with Hiruzen but I can't tell for sure if it was Danzo in there and if that happened in the manga as well.

Also, of what Tobirama did, I understand him giving the police force over for the uchicha, their eyes, are superior, and the yare strong, thus making for a perfect police task force. the problem is, he did corner them a bit to much. hiruzen, should in my opinion, have tried to change that, and give them, maybe a bigger role in the village, and maybe even a change at becoming hokage instead of this killing? maybe he should of appointed itachi as a hokage?
As of Danzo, I dont agree for what he did, Alright he did protect the village, that was his ultimate goal, but he did go around in the wrong way to do so. It seemed to me, that all he cared about, was to be hokage, and everything else were a side matter to him..

Indeed, he did kinda cornered the Uchihas, that's why I said his method of leadership pretty much seems similar to Danzo's. Something like the Root Anbu's, you know? But he did have a reason behind it. As I pretty much see [and this leads me to an other theory] he did studied the Uchihas, given, probably, the countless times they fought. So he expected the fact that the Uchihas would go wild one day, hence the "I was expecting them to do something like that sooner or later". So basically, the situation is similar to Danzo's.
While I don't agree with it myself and I said that it's morally debatable however politically correct since this would've lead to the Leaf's crumble, Danzo's resolve is pretty much similar to Tobirama's. And while Hiruzen didn't agree with it, it was a rough situation. He wanted things to go his way, however, he was in that reality-check of Danzo's, with the crumble of the Leaf if the Uchihas will rebel.
And while I agree that he wanted to be Hokage, probably this was his excessive way of loving the village? You know...there's always 2 sides of the coin here. Same as Tobirama/Hashirama as well as Danzo/Hiruzen.
One has to work in the light, one in the dark. There has to be that guy who'll do the dirty work you know and from what I've seen both Tobirama and Danzo "meet these requirements"...

So in conclusion, Tobirama, was good, and I understand what he did, and there is nothing wrong with it in a way. Danzo was a good guy in a Discuise, and dont like him. Hiruzen could of changed things in my opinion. And Hashi... just a badass cant believe he actually made the village with madara and others..

As I said, yes, I do believe Tobirama was good. Just too strict, maybe? And with Danzo, as I said, I believe that from his excessive desire to protect the village since once he had failed being too afraid of it, this lead to his behavior and while it is morally debatable what he did, politically, it's kinda correct.
Nice way of Kishi paralleling the generations heh.

Danzo was more the darker side of konoha while I think tobirama was just down to earth on what he wanted done and wasn't afraid to do so

True, might be the case. I find this Danzo matter a bit paralleled with Uchiha's curse of love, you know? In order to protect Konoha, he went so downhill and obsessed about it that he forgot to think that if his actions were really good, you know? Same with Uchihas. From their desire to rebel for power, they didn't think that in the process they'll harm their village.

yea.. i agree that it looks like danzo followed tobirama's style of leadership while hiruzen followed hashis. it makes sense with them carrying on the leadership of the village and carrying on the clash of idealoligies on how to lead the village. on a side note your post reminded me of when tobirama died and we got the flashback.
maybe hiruzen was in hashirama's 3 man team and danzo was in tobirama's 3 man team
i think i remember 6 ninjas with tobirama at the time.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

the chapter page of 481 shows the two teams.
the team that hashi lead consisting of hiruzen n the elders
n tobirama had danzo n the uchiha n akimichi.
with hashirama dead tobirama leads them all on this mission.

post script... i know we saw hiruzen being trained by both senju bros. well maybe they noticed how nice he was and lavished some brotherly attention on him. because they knew he was the best one to protect the leaf for them.

Good observation there! Maybe that's why Tobirama gave in the end the leadership to Hiruzen.

And then Tobirama died without any major ramifications or impact on the story.

Just like Danzo.

Sadly, true as well..

 

[shonu]

Yeah..I agree to what u say..But both danzo and hiruzen were tobirama's students!!

 

[Aertes]

Hhmm I think Danzo and Tobirama have more differences than similarities.Danzo was too trying to protect the village and put it above anything else, but he used many unorthodox ways to do so.He craved for power so much that he secretly made experiments with Oro,a well known enemy of the village and stole sharingans to enhance his power.He also tried to manipulate the kages in the summit to his own benefit.I believe that Danzo was after the Hokage title so bad not only to protect the village but to satisfy his own ambitions too.
Tobirama on the other hand might seem that was more harsh, but as far as we 've seen, he never tried to use his power for his ambitions or mistreated the Uchiha's to gain something.He even sacrificed himself and gladly gave the Hokage title to Hiruzen.From his words I conclude that he respected the Uchiha clan and his power but he considered that their love/hate curse could compromise the peace of the village so he tried to contain them.

 

[captainEO]

First, I'll say I haven't read every post in the thread but I just want to add the following:

Tobirama seems quite corrupt. I had grown tired of nearly every Uchiha being portrayed as villain-like. Finally! The tables turn and the Senju aren't that angelic after all. It was way too one sided before.

I'm sure he's hiding a lot too and I think that by the end of this "chat", there'll be a major division between the Kage.

I don't see how one could support either Danzo or Tobirama, they're extremists. They're terrible. There were so many instances of Tobirama's wickedness in this chapter, it's insane.

 

[Chatte]

Good thoughts. I fully agree but I still have that slight feeling that Tobirama could turn out to be a traitor. There are two possible ways: he either deeply cares for the safetly of the village and puts it over the single individual. He shunned and outcasted a group of people because he cared for the village only. That would just be like Danzo's way (Danzo was powerhungry though, I wonder if Tobirama was).

Thanks a lot! Hmmm...interesting thoughts you have there...Though I don't think he was powerhungry or anything like that, just really really strict. And I do see him caring more about the village than anything else. Similar to how Danzo had them killed rather than put the village into a instability, politically speaking.

Or could it be that Kishi will go further with his plot twist and show Tobirama did even worse? His words were strong like those of a fanatic or even like those of some traitor who pulled the strings and did even worse? We will have to wait and see. That would be interesting.

Well, what can I say, you did make me look even further into events and more and more curious about Tobirama than I was before. Though, as I said, I do doubt that he was a traitor or anything like that.
In the end he did die for the village.

The big deal is probably not even the background story. Kishi attempts to make Sasuke's decision harder. Sasuke is about to find out how his clan was a victim. He will probably see how his own revenge will become legit and understandable. BUT... the question is, will he follow in his brothers' footsteps and put the village over his beloved? The harder the decision, the more interesting it will be. That's why the chapter is like it is and will probably show even more reasons for the Uchiha.

Right? I saw Sasuke this chapter going from calm, indifferent, raged, feeling overwhelmed with emotions, raged again. I do believe he will make Sasuke's decision quite hard and I do feel Tobirama is the 'centric' factor here. The others seem to care very much for the village, however, Tobirama confirms him that part with making the Uchihas castaways that Tobi told him. And that played a big part in his revenge as he said he wanted to purify the Uchiha name.

Hhmm I think Danzo and Tobirama have more differences than similarities.Danzo was too trying to protect the village and put it above anything else, but he used many unorthodox ways to do so.He craved for power so much that he secretly made experiments with Oro,a well known enemy of the village and stole sharingans to enhance his power.He also tried to manipulate the kages in the summit to his own benefit.I believe that Danzo was after the Hokage title so bad not only to protect the village but to satisfy his own ambitions too.

Well about that unorthodox...do you find Edo Tensei to be orthodox? I surely don't. And well regarding Oro and experiments, I do have another theory about this. In the end, Tobirama seemed like a experiments person himself. The way e studied the Uchihas makes me believe that. I know all the things Danzo did were morally debatable, however, what do you do when your village in in danger? Who do you chose first?

Tobirama on the other hand might seem that was more harsh, but as far as we 've seen, he never tried to use his power for his ambitions or mistreated the Uchiha's to gain something.He even sacrificed himself and gladly gave the Hokage title to Hiruzen.From his words I conclude that he respected the Uchiha clan and his power but he considered that their love/hate curse could compromise the peace of the village so he tried to contain them.

This part, I do totally agree with it that's how I see him too, mainly.
And all those things that he probably did, were never out of respect or anything, just out of too much care for his village.

First, I'll say I haven't read every post in the thread but I just want to add the following:

Tobirama seems quite corrupt. I had grown tired of nearly every Uchiha being portrayed as villain-like. Finally! The tables turn and the Senju aren't that angelic after all. It was way too one sided before.

I'm sure he's hiding a lot too and I think that by the end of this "chat", there'll be a major division between the Kage.

I don't see how one could support either Danzo or Tobirama, they're extremists. They're terrible. There were so many instances of Tobirama's wickedness in this chapter, it's insane.

I do agree many dark things will arisen and I do agree that Danzo was quite an extremist himself, however, I don't see Tobirama that way. Not yet at least.

 

[MrSimple]

Actually, I'd argue that. Danzo didn't cared for the village only. He wanted the position as Hokage. He did many not so good things, to say like that, in order to get it. There were both personal interests and village interests in the middle.
And Tobirama, as I previously stated, did this not quite for his clan. Did it as a back-up plan for the village given the fact that he was right not to trust into the Uchihas. And since the both clans have been fighting for a long time, it was only a back-up plan in case they go rebels.
This manga chapter only enforces the idea.

He acted though because of his title- Hokage. For me this union between Senju and Uchiha shouldn't evah! happening.
He didn't entrust Uchiha because of his fear- Madara.
Tobirama realize that the loosing of your lover makes Uchiha stronger than Senju. Allowing them to have power that equalize Hashirama's power.
Tobirama knew that Madara is stronger than him, so he manage to suppress Uchiha another way. Because a huge clan like Uchiha have the possibility to have another member strong as Madara. And since Tobirama and Madara didn't settle down nor Hashirama this hatred amongs the two clans even Sasuke suffered it now.
Tobirama tried to put Senju over Uchiha just as Madara was trying to put Uchiha over Senju which cause an endless fight between them and the village.

 

[Venus]

Hmmmm Thinking about it from your point of view, it does seem as though things would have been like that. What I personally think is that Tobirama was both Danzo and Hiruzen's Sensei but I believe that Hiruzen would have looked up to Hashirama a bit more than Tobirama which in turn gave him a bit of both personality traits of the two Kage brothers. Hiruzen has a strong will and a firm hand like Tobirama but he has a gentle way of doing it, much like Hashirama.

I think I made sense, if not then. Blaaah

 

[chibi kyuubi]

look i think some people are overlooking this fact.
Danzo was NOT power hungry for the seat of hokage just to be hokage.
Danzo had a goal the unification of the shinobi world. how hashirama united the clans to form a village he would unite the villages together.
Becoming hokage was only important to him for purposes of furthering that goal.
you guys think he loves being hokage he wants it so bad. when his ultimate goal is to do away with the hokage position forever by uniting all villages.

honestly this is just like the 9 tails charka. naruto is going to get the other half of kurama chakra every five minutes. why did half the base forget that minato sealed that chakra in himself and why dont people go do a discount double check. cmon people this is naruto not school. you must study hard and be perfect.

 

[GwemBaba]

<div class="bbWrapper">Hmm, someone already made a thread like this, does it mean i can close it too?<br /> Like you did to mine?</div>