Myth Busting Thread #3 - Hanzo was not this incredible, super kage level shinobi

[NLee]

I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

The 3rd of these is that Hanzo of the Salamander was some amazingly awesome Shinobi. He wasn't.

Hanzo was a good ninja, no doubt there. And he had a great rep. But the more we've seen of him, the clearer it has been that he isn't anything special. The guys big claim to fame was that he fought evenly with the Sannin back when they were teenagers. This fight doesn't mean much though, because:
a) they were teenagers, who hadn't gotten nearly as strong as they would later. Tsunade didn't have her regen techniques for instance, Jiraiya doesn't seem to have Sage mode or the Rasengan (which hadn't been invented yet), Oro hadn't gone through numerous power ups from absorbing other host bodies, and adding their strength to his own, nor had he invented numerous techniques that would make him way stronger than Hanzo (like Edo Tensei). None of them seem to have had their summons available for the fight either (or were too tired to summon them). This brings me to the 2nd point,
b) We don't know the circumstances of the fight. For all we know the Sannin were exhausted from killing all Hanzo's men (see all the dead bodies visible in the fight?), and by the time Hanzo showed up they were in no condition to take him and his Salamander.

Your entire reasoning here is backwards.

Hanzo's fame didn't come from fighting the Sannin. The Sannin's fame came from fighting Hanzo. They were given the title by Hanzo. As a matter of fact, they were spared because they impressed him.

As for his placement in the war, you do realize that not a single of the War fights has been about action. Almost every single fight we've seen has been about the shinobi's feelings and history. We've seen Zabuza and Haku vs Kakashi, Gaara vs his father, Sasori vs Kankuro, and Hanzo vs Mifune. Kishi wanted that fight to do what it did - to explore Hanzo and Mifune's past.

 

[NowNoon]

He beat 3 sannin when they were young, not OLD like when we fans were first introduced to them. Can't count them out just cuz they were young, look at Naruto and Sasuke, still teens themselves. Hanzo was a monster.

 

[The Infernal Spirit]

Hanzo himself was a legendary shinobi he didn't just fight the soon to be dubbed sanin.They were the were the only ones to survive the fight.

He was pointed out to be powerful because he was based off of Japan's most famous and lgendary ninja Hattori Hanzo

Hanzō may have been named after a famous real-life samurai and widely believed ninja Hattori Hanzō (服部半蔵). This is further accentuated by his connections with samurai of the Naruto universe and his final act of suicide, typical of real-life samurai.
It is popular Japanese legend that Hattori Hanzō was killed by Fūma Kotarō. Pain's first Animal Path was said to be from the Fūma clan.
He may also be named after the Japanese giant salamander. This species is also called the hanzaki (半割), which shares the first kanji with Hanzō's name.
Hanzō's nickname and his element affinity have significant meaning because in ancient mythology, although being amphibious, the salamander was considered the living symbol of fire and as such was completely fireproof and able to live in fire itself.


Most Kishi fans know he draws a lot of inspiration from mythology and history.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Jiraiya's statement of not believing a single man can beat him, along side of the fact that the ninja he was interrogating claimed "this is a God we're talking about", in reference to someone needing to be so powerful to defeat Hanzo, says quite a bit. Jiraiya also says "impossible" over the shock of him being beaten, he even starts to sweat. Jiraiya obviously held him in pretty high regard.

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Jiraiya doesn't go around praising random fodders. When he's in disbelief over someone getting defeated, I would take it seriously.

In regards to his placement with the Edos, Mifune himself says Hanzo isn't what he once was. If I remember correctly, he said Hanzo was a shell of his former self, or something to that effect.

 

[ghetto gladiator]

nice

 

[ItachiStyle]

Your entire reasoning here is backwards.

Hanzo's fame didn't come from fighting the Sannin. The Sannin's fame came from fighting Hanzo. They were given the title by Hanzo. As a matter of fact, they were spared because they impressed him.

Yes, as teenagers they gained a rep from impressing Hanzo and surviving a battle (of which fighting Hanzo was only one part). But that isn't the reason the Sannin are ranked where they are now, because after that they went and got alot stronger. At any rate, lots of Shinobi have a good rep. Sasori had a rep, white fang had a rep. It didn't make them stronger than someone just because they were famous, it's not like Jiraiya told us "Hanzo is the strongest Shinobi I've ever seen in battle", at least then we'd have something decisive to go off. Even if we were to give some cred to his (vague and undefined) rep, that evidence is nowhere near as persuasive as what we actually saw him do in battle when edo'd... which is to say, not very much. Feats trump a vague rep every time.

As for his placement in the war, you do realize that not a single of the War fights has been about action. Almost every single fight we've seen has been about the shinobi's feelings and history. We've seen Zabuza and Haku vs Kakashi, Gaara vs his father, Sasori vs Kankuro, and Hanzo vs Mifune. Kishi wanted that fight to do what it did - to explore Hanzo and Mifune's past.

The fact that the fight was a metaphor (as many are) in no way, shape or form means we should disregard the outcome of the fight.

Jiraiya's statement of not believing a single man can beat him

Jiraiya never says that. I can see how you might infer it to be one reading, but it's vague and unclear. I could also infer a very different meaning from it. What isn't vague and unclear are the rock solid feats we got from seeing Hanzo edo'd... in which he was nothing special. Jiraiya says "impossible" in response to the claim he destroyed all the Amagakure by himself... not at the fact he beat Hanzo. He expresses susprise a single man could have beaten Hanzo, but that's right after we have this fodder shinobi explain that Hanzo took crazy security measures, so it seems more likely Jiraiya is shocked about the fact one guy could fight his way through Amagakure's defences, and then defeat Hanzo, unaided. Not that a single guy could beat Hanzo period. We know that's not too tough... Mifune did it.

In regards to his placement with the Edos, Mifune himself says Hanzo isn't what he once was. If I remember correctly, he said Hanzo was a shell of his former self, or something to that effect.

Mifune doesn't say he physically got weaker, merely that he "lost his faith", part of some metaphysical wankery Kishi is pulling during the fight. His actual power was the same... and that power is someone who Kabuto put in the ambush unit because he wasn't worth using on the front lines, and who can't do jutsu without seals (and whose hyped up Salamander can be killed with a sword swung by Mifune).

 

[Killer B]

The real question: Is Mifune kage level?

 

[Noni]

He might not be as big as most people say but he was definitly worthy of a kage level

 

[TheWillofFire]

I disagree, hanzo is some incredible kage level

Shunshin no jutsu, a rare, super awesome kage jutsu

 

[ItachiStyle]

He might not be as big as most people say but he was definitly worthy of a kage level

I can't think of one Kage we've seen in action who he could beat. Indeed, I can think of alot of non-Kages who are clearly more powerful than him. So far one of the weakest Kage we've seen in action is Gaara's father, and he looks like he's own Hanzo pretty easily.

 

[DESTRUCTO]

This entire thread is simply your opinion and how YOU view the manga and its character levels. You really haven't provided any facts and you're pretty much down playing everything. I don't even think we're reading the same manga. I think if i see your name as the producer of a thread, I'll probably just skip it and read a different one. So, using your own words "respect isn't given, it's earned..." You have been a member of the base for probably about a week or two, and you're not doing a very good job of earning MY respect, and I'm sure a few others would agree with me. Peace ya piece...

 

[Wysten]

To be fair, we have relatively little data to compare against.

We saw him fight the aftermath 3 Senin, he won but let them go. We don't have any real indications on how strong they were, or whether they were merely the last 3 standing out of an army conflict. We really don't have any idea what happened, only Hanzo was probably instrumental in that battle.

We saw him fight against Nagato twice, the first time he was forced to flee from the sheer assualt, the second time he was easily dealt with largely due to simply how powerful the 6 paths are. (To not, even Naruto hasn't fought the 6 paths of pain at the same time since God path was unavalible at the time. Even then, he had the asistance of summoned creatures, so Pain can logically descimate most ninja in the naruto world in a 6 on 1 battle with relative ease. The only character who fought the six paths and lived was J-Man, and he went back there and subquently died.)

We saw him fight a Samuari guy who was experienced and had been training to counter ninja. This hardly paints him in a good light since he really didn't do much that fight, he had been forced to play at the samurai's game and again, we really don't get much out of this battle either. Most likely the writer just wanted to get that battle done with quickly so the more importent issues could be addressed.


So really, we can either conclude he's really weak. Or has simply been put at a overwelming disadvantage whenever we have seen him.

What we can extract though is that he is a Kage level ninja, probably on the same level as those at the Kage summit. Which is respectively strong, but typically overly specialised. So that characters with a resistance to his speciality would walk all over him.

 

[ItachiStyle]

What we can extract though is that he is a Kage level ninja, probably on the same level as those at the Kage summit. Which is respectively strong, but typically overly specialised. So that characters with a resistance to his speciality would walk all over him.

Actually the idea of Kage level ninja is that they are more than mere specialists, who can't be paper-scissor-rocked easily. Who are these specialist Kage you're thinking of, who are walked all over in this fashion? Again, I can't think of any. I can't think of any who'd lose to Mifune either.

 

[Dannyd416]

Not Bad but you are missing a couple key elements to Hanzo. Hanzo was weak when he fought Mifune because years before his death he stopped training to "preserve" his skills. In reality his powers had seriously deteriorated to point where one path of pain was able to defeat him. The Hanzo brought back wasn't the Same Hanzo who defeated the Sannin. One more testament to his power is the fact that he is the only rain ninja who survived Pein's summoning of the demonic statue of the outer path. He even managed to cripple Nagato to point where he is unable to move properly. Although I think he is stronger than you give him credit, it is true that he is seriously hyped up.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Not Bad but you are missing a couple key elements to Hanzo. Hanzo was weak when he fought Mifune because years before his death he stopped training to "preserve" his skills. In reality his powers had seriously deteriorated to point where one path of pain was able to defeat him. The Hanzo brought back wasn't the Same Hanzo who defeated the Sannin. One more testament to his power is the fact that he is the only rain ninja who survived Pein's summoning of the demonic statue of the outer path. He even managed to cripple Nagato to point where he is unable to move properly. Although I think he is stronger than you give him credit, it is true that he is seriously hyped up.

I see alot of people say this, and it's almost a myth worthy of debunking on its own. Hanzo is never said to have substantially lost his skills, he is said to have "lost his faith", which Mifune evokes as a tired metaphor through their fight. His actual "power" is still exactly the same, and as a matter of fact he fought all 6 of the paths:

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Hanzo was the same Hanzo as far as we know, except without as much "faith" or whatever metaphysical wank Mifune wants to claim (though Mifune also tells us later that he will speak of him as one who "never lost his faith", so a bit inconsistent here).

At the end of the day Hanzo lost to Mifune, and has very little to suggest he's awesome, aside from stalemating some well below peak Sannin when they were young, under unclear circumstances.

 

[thegame]

Mhh, you just make a bunch of assumptions, which you have no knowledge about. Fact is, more evidence points against you. I revise you to read chapter 369 - About Pain. Jiraya is clearly amazed that Hanzou could be defeated by a single man. And we're talking about grown up, prime Jiraya here.

The other thing is, you make assumptions on facts, like Tsunade not having her seal, and that the 3 of them didn't use their summons. How do you know? You don't.

Fact is that, when Jiraya, Tsunade, and Oro met for the first time in the actual manga, they all summoned each of their giant summon. Gamabunta said something interesting. "It's been a while, Oro, Tsunade, you holding some reunion." And he also talked about Katsuyu and Manda.

So clearly the 3 had been summoned together at some point in time. Now here it gets tricky, because Tsunade left Konoha after the 2nd war. Jiraya didn't return to Konoha for 2 years after losing to Hanzou, so clearly it must have been either during the Hanzou fight, or before it. So if you ask me, they used all disposable summon in that fight U_U But here I am just assuming things as well, but it is ore likely that they used them, than what you assume.

I will give you that, Tsunade probably didn't have that byakugou seal, since Oro didn't know about it. Of course it's possible, she didn't use it, but more likely she didn't have it.

The last thing is that Jiraya had already learned sage mode, when they had that fight. Did he use it? We don't know, but he certainly had it. It was clearly stated by Fukasaku (and as I recall, we saw flashbacks of young Jiraya meeting the old priest toad).

Also you mention the circumstances, surely we don't know them, but this goes for any past fight. Madara may as well be >>>>>>>> Hashirama, we don't know, but lets not base theories on unknown facts, it's silly. Besides Hanzou let the 3 sannin live, because Konoha was gonna win the war anyway. He had simply no reason to kill them, since the outcome of the war, was obvious. So they most likely weren't fighting alone, they were just the last shinobi standing.

In the end, you base your argument, on edo tensei Hanzou losing to Mifune. Pretty vague, since Mifune isn't that bad either. Not only was he immune to his poison, he also seem to have some pretty neat sword techniques. Of course, more would be expected from Hanzou, but again it was in edo tensei. In general the standard edo tensei summon is weaker than its real self. That is, if the summon isn't being directly controlled or wants to win the fight himself.

Anyway, as I said, read the chapter about Pain, Hanzou was a fearsome shinobi, besides the strength of a shinobi, should be measures by his actions/reputation, not what he can do as some edo tensei puppet U_U

 

[ItachiStyle]

Mhh, you just make a bunch of assumptions, which you have no knowledge about. Fact is, more evidence points against you. I revise you to read chapter 369 - About Pain. Jiraya is clearly amazed that Hanzou could be defeated by a single man. And we're talking about grown up, prime Jiraya here.

This has been covered. That's not really what he says. He is surprised a single guy could beat Hanzo, but that's after we're explicitly told about all Hanzo's security precautions and such. He could equally be surprised someone he's never heard of could do all that. And what is Jiraiya's reaction after? He doesn't say "gee, if this guy could single handedly get past all Hanzo's security and still beat Hanzo, he must be stronger than me". Instead he says "yeh, this guy could be strong, I'll take the key out as a precaution, but I think I'll be fine to go fight him... shouldn't take too long". So clearly Jiraiya is backing himself to beat someone who was apparently much stronger than Hanzo.

The other thing is, you make assumptions on facts, like Tsunade not having her seal, and that the 3 of them didn't use their summons. How do you know? You don't.

Well, we don't see them, and even in the anime (which suggests they had them during the war), the summons are depicted as substantially smaller than they would grow to be. It may just be that by the time Hanzo rocked up they were too exhausted to use them. I'm not going to just grant that the Sannin had them 25-35 years ago, just because it suits your argument. Tsunade didn't have her seal, and we know she hadn't developed regen yet (as you admit) because Oro didn't know about it... which says nothing of her even better Regen tech, which she didn't use until the Madara fight.

So clearly the 3 had been summoned together at some point in time. Now here it gets tricky, because Tsunade left Konoha after the 2nd war. Jiraya didn't return to Konoha for 2 years after losing to Hanzou

Over 3 years actually.

The last thing is that Jiraya had already learned sage mode, when they had that fight. Did he use it? We don't know, but he certainly had it. It was clearly stated by Fukasaku (and as I recall, we saw flashbacks of young Jiraya meeting the old priest toad).

There is a world of difference between knowing how to use Sage energy, and being able to go into Sage mode. There is no evidence Jiraiya went into it, and if he did why would he have stopped using it during the fight (given it not only makes him vastly stronger, but doesn't run out of energy)? It's pretty unlikely he used it, or was even able to use it yet.

This has all been gone over in depth. There's little reason to give Hanzo much cred, and lots of reason not to (the latter evidence being more persuasive, and less hyperbolic). Repeating arguments that were long ago debunked is not constructive, and you should stop it.

 

[thegame]

This has been covered. That's not really what he says. He is surprised a single guy could beat Hanzo, but that's after we're explicitly told about all Hanzo's security precautions and such. He could equally be surprised someone he's never heard of could do all that. And what is Jiraiya's reaction after? He doesn't say "gee, if this guy could single handedly get past all Hanzo's security and still beat Hanzo, he must be stronger than me". Instead he says "yeh, this guy could be strong, I'll take the key out as a precaution, but I think I'll be fine to go fight him... shouldn't take too long". So clearly Jiraiya is backing himself to beat someone who was apparently much stronger than Hanzo.

Mhh, you do realize that you don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him? Jiraya originally infiltrated to obtain information on Pain. What he found out, led to the flashback, where the elder said, he one day would need to make a very important choice. Jiraya thought that day had come, and he knew he had to face his former student.
Also you are terribly wrong, thinking Jiraya went there to fight Pain. It was Pain that engaged Jiraya, rather it was Konan. Jiraya had disguised himself as the guy he interrogated.
When Jiraya learned Pains true strength, he ran away for a moment, then they tried a sick OP genjutsu, and even later, when he could still escape, he made his "choice".
Truly IMO Hanzou is kage material. He led a country for long, and showed explicit leader material through good negotiations and such.

Well, we don't see them, and even in the anime (which suggests they had them during the war), the summons are depicted as substantially smaller than they would grow to be. It may just be that by the time Hanzo rocked up they were too exhausted to use them. I'm not going to just grant that the Sannin had them 25-35 years ago, just because it suits your argument. Tsunade didn't have her seal, and we know she hadn't developed regen yet (as you admit) because Oro didn't know about it... which says nothing of her even better Regen tech, which she didn't use until the Madara fight.

Yeah, they were smaller, but they most likely still had them. We don't know about their strength at the time. The only early picture we saw of Gamabunta, he is still quite large. And this is, when Jiraya is like 12-15 years old. I simply wanted to point out that it's more likely that they actually used all summons in that particular fight.

There is a world of difference between knowing how to use Sage energy, and being able to go into Sage mode. There is no evidence Jiraiya went into it, and if he did why would he have stopped using it during the fight (given it not only makes him vastly stronger, but doesn't run out of energy)? It's pretty unlikely he used it, or was even able to use it yet.

Hmm, Jiraya was never able to use it. He needed to summon both elder toads. If they admitted defeat, he would unsummon them. That would be natural of course. I also don't think he used them though. It seems his relationship with them is rather personal, but still if it was to protect his comrades, I have no doubt that he would summon them. Again, no evidence.

This has all been gone over in depth. There's little reason to give Hanzo much cred, and lots of reason not to (the latter evidence being more persuasive, and less hyperbolic). Repeating arguments that were long ago debunked is not constructive, and you should stop it.

Well, the way of shooting Hanzou down, is not arguable IMO. Basing it one fight, where he was in edo tensei state, is not very provable. It's not like Sasori or Deidara used their full arsenal of jutsu either, and they even wanted to fight. Hanzou was in an emotional state, realizing all his errors, as he saw the united shinobi alliance, and the person he once defeated.

I don't know, why Kishi chose Hanzou to give Mifune (and the Samurai) some credit. But most people agree that it was just a plotted fight, which allowed Mifune to win. Besides Hanzou didn't use any ninjutsu in that fight. I think Mifune did something in the start to prevent it, so tbh, you can't really use it for anything at all. Kishi had to give the Samurai some shine, and whether it had been Mifune or perhaps one of the 3 kages, does not matter. I don't see that fight as much valid evidence. Hanzou has been given enough credit throughout the manga, but we will never reach an agreement on that, I bet.

 

[thegame]

Also, you may wanna read through their fight again. Hanzou was able to even neglect the orders from Kabutos talisman due to his feelings and belief. Hanzou actually defeated himself with his own poison.
Samurai uses IAI, which is a very fast strike with the sword. The opening created from performing seals, is enough for the samurai using this. So it's quite strong. So once a samurai gets in close combat of a shinobi relying on hand seals, he has a huge advantage. Though I wonder, why he couldn't use some replacement thing to escape, but that is why, I call it plot. Besides of that, he could likely have some strong jutsu to fight Jiraya and Oro. Else it wouldn't make sense. The 3 of them are/were still referred to by the name Hanzou gave them, so his reputation is without doubt U_U

 

[ItachiStyle]

Mhh, you do realize that you don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him? Jiraya originally infiltrated to obtain information on Pain. What he found out, led to the flashback, where the elder said, he one day would need to make a very important choice. Jiraya thought that day had come, and he knew he had to face his former student.
Also you are terribly wrong, thinking Jiraya went there to fight Pain. It was Pain that engaged Jiraya, rather it was Konan. Jiraya had disguised himself as the guy he interrogated.
When Jiraya learned Pains true strength, he ran away for a moment, then they tried a sick OP genjutsu, and even later, when he could still escape, he made his "choice".
Truly IMO Hanzou is kage material. He led a country for long, and showed explicit leader material through good negotiations and such.

This is a minor point (compared to your usual errors), but it's important to point out Jiraiya was not "just going to get intel", he tells the frog key inside him as much; "I'm going to fight someone strong" as his justification for removing him. So yeh, Jiraya thought he could take the guy who single handedly got through all Hanzo's security, and killed Hanzo... that makes it pretty clear he thinks he's stronger than Hanzo. He also tells the frog "I shouldn't be long", so in "I don't expect it to take long to beat this guy".

Yeah, they were smaller, but they most likely still had them. We don't know about their strength at the time. The only early picture we saw of Gamabunta, he is still quite large. And this is, when Jiraya is like 12-15 years old. I simply wanted to point out that it's more likely that they actually used all summons in that particular fight.

There is no evidence they did. There is evidence Hanzo is owned by Mifune. When confronted with 2 bits of evidence, one of which is weak and ambiguous, and the other one is strong and clear, you go with the strong one.

Well, the way of shooting Hanzou down, is not arguable IMO. Basing it one fight, where he was in edo tensei state, is not very provable. It's not like Sasori or Deidara used their full arsenal of jutsu either, and they even wanted to fight. Hanzou was in an emotional state, realizing all his errors, as he saw the united shinobi alliance, and the person he once defeated.

In the case of Sasori, he was handicapped by not having any of his tools, etc, which in his case was what made him so strong. Deidara looked plenty strong fighting Onoki, and was plot-no-jutsu'd away quickly in the next fight he was in, so that he couldn't kill everyone. Deidara always had some weaknesses, so it's not surprising he'd go down to someone... he was a guy who was hard to rank for that very reason (great long distance, weak up close). Hanzo was seemingly at full strength, and he loses to Mifune... his Salamander (long hyped by Hanzo fans) also has a very poor showing.

I don't know, why Kishi chose Hanzou to give Mifune (and the Samurai) some credit. But most people agree that it was just a plotted fight, which allowed Mifune to win. Besides Hanzou didn't use any ninjutsu in that fight. I think Mifune did something in the start to prevent it, so tbh, you can't really use it for anything at all. Kishi had to give the Samurai some shine, and whether it had been Mifune or perhaps one of the 3 kages, does not matter. I don't see that fight as much valid evidence. Hanzou has been given enough credit throughout the manga, but we will never reach an agreement on that, I bet.

It doesn't really matter if you disagree with Kishi. The fight is what it is, and in it Hanzo fought how he fought. That fight is the best and most in depth we saw his fighting abilities... and they were so-so. If you don't like it, that's too bad, but it is what it is.

Hanzou was able to even neglect the orders from Kabutos talisman due to his feelings and belief. Hanzou actually defeated himself with his own poison.
Samurai uses IAI, which is a very fast strike with the sword. The opening created from performing seals, is enough for the samurai using this. So it's quite strong. So once a samurai gets in close combat of a shinobi relying on hand seals, he has a huge advantage

1) Willpower is nice, but it has nothing to do with power, which is something wholly different. Hanzo has "will", but his actual power is inconsequential compared to Kage level guys.
2) Yes... I get what it is... and as I've explained repeatedly, it is pathetic that Hanzo can't counter IAI. What Kage level ninja are helpless without seals? I can't think of any