Other thread was locked while I was writing up my response to draegod, since it was in the wrong section I guess?, so its remade in the correct one, no flaming please
As i said, their were conversations, summonings were brawling in the tower, on the outside of it, they made their way up, and then back in again... ALOT happened, and its inconceivable to thing that was only 60 seconds.. complete madness.. as 1 page alone can indicate 1 minute in the naruto manga.. 7 pages +? no ...even the anime had the whole process at like 10 minutes..
Wrong. The very fact that Itachi knows he doesn't have much stamina, will make him resort to ending the fight quickly..as a prolonged fight would be the worst thing he could possibly do.. So your argument that his sickness would cause him to not go all out in the beginning doesn't stand.
I already posted my argument on why jiraya entering sage was not 1minute... infact.. Kabuto entering sage mode wasn't even 1min and HE can enter MUCH faster, considering he has juugo's dna etc...
This , my friend is nothing but speculation.. Jiraya has no idea what the extent of Itachi's power is.. He was travelling the world in the time that Itachi grew up in Konoha.. all he would know is that Itachi is the kid that put an end to the uchiha clan... Jiraya is smart , but what even intellect he holds cannot be even closely compared to the likes of even Orochimaru, much less Itachi...It took him numerous amounts of chapters and help to simply realize that rinnegan has shared vision, while Itachi did it in a few minutes in the nagato vs IKN fight..
Shee, a ninja who is extremely smart, and had knowledge on what the sharingan is capable of , still fell to sasuke's genjutsu.. and alot of the hokage were looking into the eyes of Madara until warned by onooki.. So your argument about Jiraya not underestimating him.. when Jiraya CLEARLY underestimated Nagato... who held the eyes of the rikkudo sennin... For all Jiraya knew those eyes could cast genjutsu as well.. yet he still looked into them throughout the fight..
One again, like the other debaters, you jump into sage mode without any explanation as how he gets into it in the first place.. while having to dodge abilities such as Paralysis genjutsu in base without use of the buddy method.. or amaterasu and tsukyomi...
Ma and pa being on his shoulders may give him immunity to the basic genjutsu that Itachi holds, but definitely not Itachi's mangekyou ability, Tsukyomi.. If you desire an explanation on why cancellation effects cannot work(As stated by Kakashi) , tell me and i'll reply.. But I believe you should very well know why..
Ma and pa unfortunately does not make Jiraya 3 times smarter... He simply has two other heads to help him in the fight... unfortunately we don't know exactly how smart the two frogs are, We do however, know that even the three of them collectively still took longer than Itachi to figure out the abiltiies of the Rinnegan.
Jiraya's blindspots still are not protected, seeing as ma and pa are still facing a forward direction when on his shoulders... Nothing much changes really..
Tsukyomi
Your argument that the distance we saw in the manga being the only distance tsukyomi can be used from is fallacious in logic.. Tsukyomi is listed under close range, as all Visual ocular genjutsu are listed.. There is nothing in the manga that even suggests you have to be right infront of the person to use Tsukyomi
We have seen Sasuke cast ocular genjutsu on Deidara who was at a decent height in the sky
You argue the drawbacks of tsukyomi, that it takes alot of chakra etc.. but fail to realize that once tsukyomi lands the match is over.
Onto Amaterasu...
To start things off,... you're wrong.. amaterasu doesn't require the user to close their eyes.. Dissaproved a few times already ...EG -
You state that if the ninja is moving fast enough he can escape the user's eye sight.. true. Unfortunately, Jiraya does not know this.. he doesn't know how tsukyomi works, nor does he know how amaterasu works.. he literally has no knowledge on Itachi and his abilities... Not only that but Jiraya doesn't have the reflexes or speed on par with v2 Raikage to escape the sharingan's eyesight.. as Sasuke, with his sharingan was keeping up with v1 raikage to an extent... as well as kyuubi cloaked Killer bee
Amaterasu may burn slow, but it burns hot and spreads fast... It engulfed the entire hachibi which btw is gigantic.. in no time flat.. and it was hot enough to burn through jiraya's gate in seonds... considering they only have seconds before the wall closed in..
Not even going to argue the sealing counter you posted.. Have no idea why you think jiraya, while already set on fire, will have time to pull out a scroll, pen and ink and start writing the fire sealing inscription on it..
And itachi would simply watch him while he does it
When you add all these things up, Jiraya is at an extreme disadvantage, with or without sage mode on.. Once again, not that he'll get into sage mode in the first place.
You claim swamp of the underworld is a counter to Itachi and his susanno, I disagree. swamp of the underworld may work well against summonings, But itachi is no fool.. A simple counter for swamp of the underworld would be placing chakra under your feet. Considering Itachi is an expert at chakra control (considering he's a genjutsu user) , This would be no problem what so ever for him
To start off, Itachi's speed,both movement and handseal wise, far out weighs anything Jiraya has shown in base.. this means that once their fight begins, jiraya would be at an extreme disadvantage.. His katon jutsu will be easily predicted and read by the sharingan and countered with suiton... His summonings will be turned against him by the manipulative power of the doujutsu... He'll have shruiken flying at him at blindspots he can't even see... Crow summonings used for distractions coupled with Clones charging at him with speeds that kabuto , a sm sensor ninja couldn't distinguish from the real Itachi.. all capable of exploding with a force far greater than any normal exploding tag..
Not to mention Itachi's non eye contact genjutsu, which alone would be is needed to incapacitate jiraya for a few seconds, to end his life in real time.. Considering Itachi's genjutsu can simulate reality perfectly.. And jiraya who isn't the most analytical ninja in the manga(as explained before) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two worlds...
Jiraya simply has nothing to compete with Itachi
As i said, their were conversations, summonings were brawling in the tower, on the outside of it, they made their way up, and then back in again... ALOT happened, and its inconceivable to thing that was only 60 seconds.. complete madness.. as 1 page alone can indicate 1 minute in the naruto manga.. 7 pages +? no ...even the anime had the whole process at like 10 minutes..
Wrong. The very fact that Itachi knows he doesn't have much stamina, will make him resort to ending the fight quickly..as a prolonged fight would be the worst thing he could possibly do.. So your argument that his sickness would cause him to not go all out in the beginning doesn't stand.
I already posted my argument on why jiraya entering sage was not 1minute... infact.. Kabuto entering sage mode wasn't even 1min and HE can enter MUCH faster, considering he has juugo's dna etc...
This , my friend is nothing but speculation.. Jiraya has no idea what the extent of Itachi's power is.. He was travelling the world in the time that Itachi grew up in Konoha.. all he would know is that Itachi is the kid that put an end to the uchiha clan... Jiraya is smart , but what even intellect he holds cannot be even closely compared to the likes of even Orochimaru, much less Itachi...It took him numerous amounts of chapters and help to simply realize that rinnegan has shared vision, while Itachi did it in a few minutes in the nagato vs IKN fight..
Shee, a ninja who is extremely smart, and had knowledge on what the sharingan is capable of , still fell to sasuke's genjutsu.. and alot of the hokage were looking into the eyes of Madara until warned by onooki.. So your argument about Jiraya not underestimating him.. when Jiraya CLEARLY underestimated Nagato... who held the eyes of the rikkudo sennin... For all Jiraya knew those eyes could cast genjutsu as well.. yet he still looked into them throughout the fight..
One again, like the other debaters, you jump into sage mode without any explanation as how he gets into it in the first place.. while having to dodge abilities such as Paralysis genjutsu in base without use of the buddy method.. or amaterasu and tsukyomi...
Ma and pa being on his shoulders may give him immunity to the basic genjutsu that Itachi holds, but definitely not Itachi's mangekyou ability, Tsukyomi.. If you desire an explanation on why cancellation effects cannot work(As stated by Kakashi) , tell me and i'll reply.. But I believe you should very well know why..
Ma and pa unfortunately does not make Jiraya 3 times smarter... He simply has two other heads to help him in the fight... unfortunately we don't know exactly how smart the two frogs are, We do however, know that even the three of them collectively still took longer than Itachi to figure out the abiltiies of the Rinnegan.
Jiraya's blindspots still are not protected, seeing as ma and pa are still facing a forward direction when on his shoulders... Nothing much changes really..
Tsukyomi
Your argument that the distance we saw in the manga being the only distance tsukyomi can be used from is fallacious in logic.. Tsukyomi is listed under close range, as all Visual ocular genjutsu are listed.. There is nothing in the manga that even suggests you have to be right infront of the person to use Tsukyomi
We have seen Sasuke cast ocular genjutsu on Deidara who was at a decent height in the sky
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You argue the drawbacks of tsukyomi, that it takes alot of chakra etc.. but fail to realize that once tsukyomi lands the match is over.
Onto Amaterasu...
To start things off,... you're wrong.. amaterasu doesn't require the user to close their eyes.. Dissaproved a few times already ...EG -
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You state that if the ninja is moving fast enough he can escape the user's eye sight.. true. Unfortunately, Jiraya does not know this.. he doesn't know how tsukyomi works, nor does he know how amaterasu works.. he literally has no knowledge on Itachi and his abilities... Not only that but Jiraya doesn't have the reflexes or speed on par with v2 Raikage to escape the sharingan's eyesight.. as Sasuke, with his sharingan was keeping up with v1 raikage to an extent... as well as kyuubi cloaked Killer bee
Amaterasu may burn slow, but it burns hot and spreads fast... It engulfed the entire hachibi which btw is gigantic.. in no time flat.. and it was hot enough to burn through jiraya's gate in seonds... considering they only have seconds before the wall closed in..
Not even going to argue the sealing counter you posted.. Have no idea why you think jiraya, while already set on fire, will have time to pull out a scroll, pen and ink and start writing the fire sealing inscription on it..
And itachi would simply watch him while he does it
When you add all these things up, Jiraya is at an extreme disadvantage, with or without sage mode on.. Once again, not that he'll get into sage mode in the first place.
You claim swamp of the underworld is a counter to Itachi and his susanno, I disagree. swamp of the underworld may work well against summonings, But itachi is no fool.. A simple counter for swamp of the underworld would be placing chakra under your feet. Considering Itachi is an expert at chakra control (considering he's a genjutsu user) , This would be no problem what so ever for him
To start off, Itachi's speed,both movement and handseal wise, far out weighs anything Jiraya has shown in base.. this means that once their fight begins, jiraya would be at an extreme disadvantage.. His katon jutsu will be easily predicted and read by the sharingan and countered with suiton... His summonings will be turned against him by the manipulative power of the doujutsu... He'll have shruiken flying at him at blindspots he can't even see... Crow summonings used for distractions coupled with Clones charging at him with speeds that kabuto , a sm sensor ninja couldn't distinguish from the real Itachi.. all capable of exploding with a force far greater than any normal exploding tag..
Not to mention Itachi's non eye contact genjutsu, which alone would be is needed to incapacitate jiraya for a few seconds, to end his life in real time.. Considering Itachi's genjutsu can simulate reality perfectly.. And jiraya who isn't the most analytical ninja in the manga(as explained before) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two worlds...
Jiraya simply has nothing to compete with Itachi
