Current Kakashi's Kamui chakra consumption analysis (relative to Raikiri)

[Champ]

Kakashi as Chakra no jutsu for the war

 

[oShux]

And on top of that kakashi isn't even part of the uchiha clan it takes him much more chakra to use the sharingan imagine if he was part of the uchiha

 

[Takos]

It's more "there's no reason/explanation for Kakashi to have this much chakra".

There's much more evidence of it being Kakashi being restored by the cloak than it is "Kakashi somehow quadrupled his chakra reserves in a very short period of time".

If suddenly Sasuke, or anyone else, started spamming jutsus non stop for 24 hours or more would you say "well, his chakra reserves must have increased" even if you didn't like it or try to come up with an explanation like "the wind must have carried chakra from other people and Sasuke absorbed it, there is no other possiblity"?

We don't even know if Kyuubi can give his chakra to anyone besides Jinchuuriki, yet alone that he gave any to Kakashi.

 

[drknght]

I've got different answer assuming that he used these in order: 4raikiri, KB, 3raikiri, 4kamui and that it leaves him with no chakra.

100-(100-4r)/2+3r+4k=100
100-50-2r+3r+4k=100
50+r+4k=100
r+4k=50
2r+8k=100

 

[EliteKakashi]

First of all, Kakashi clearly wouldn't faint after using 2 kamuis at full stamina. :sy: Even at the beginning of part 2 he used 3 kamuis in a row, one of which was a big one and remained concious.

He might have meant other consequences of using Kamui, ex. his mobility. Kakashi didn't say anything about fainting explicitly. As Sakura is a medical ninja, she might be able to help him with that. Notice that he specifically talked to Sakura at this time, not to both of them or Naruto.

And once again, I'll have to repeat myself, him worrying about chakra was because he was about to lose half of his current chakra, God damn it. At the same time he knew he will have to fight a long time and that because of this chakra loss, he will find himself exhausted soon. And look, that's exactly what's going on right now.

You can argue that one of his uses of kamui vs Deidara didn't really harm him, due to the fact that he never actually warped anything with it. Deidara avoided and Naruto hit him with the rasengan. Kakashi has only showed exhaustion when he had to warp something, likely because warping the object requires a lot of chakra, where as opening the "wormhole" isn't as draining.

And you can look at that statement he made any way you want to. It still shows the drastic change from him going from worrying about his chakra levels because of 2 uses of kamui(to the point where he needs someone to take care of his body), to using it 4 times after using god knows how much chakra prior to. He had no time to train inbetween that fight with Sasuke given he had to prep for becoming hokage until Tsunade woke up, and once Tsunade woke up, the war had to be prepped for, and he was one of the generals as well as being on the council in konoha preparing for it.

You're using no logic at all.

 

[EliteKakashi]

If suddenly Sasuke, or anyone else, started spamming jutsus non stop for 24 hours or more would you say "well, his chakra reserves must have increased" even if you didn't like it or try to come up with an explanation like "the wind must have carried chakra from other people and Sasuke absorbed it, there is no other possiblity"?

We don't even know if Kyuubi can give his chakra to anyone besides Jinchuuriki, yet alone that he gave any to Kakashi.

If Sasuke started spamming jutsus where as just a very short time ago he was incapable of doing so, yes, I would look for a reason as to why he was capable of it. But that hasn't happened, nor has this issue occurred with anyone else in the manga. Only Kakashi. And I'm not buying his chakra reserves quadrupling(if not more) in a very short period of time where he had no opportunity to train.

 

[Champ]

Two Kakashi fanboys arguing I must watch

 

[Takos]

You can argue that one of his uses of kamui vs Deidara didn't really harm him, due to the fact that he never actually warped anything with it. Deidara avoided and Naruto hit him with the rasengan. Kakashi has only showed exhaustion when he had to warp something, likely because warping the object requires a lot of chakra, where as opening the "wormhole" isn't as draining.

And you can look at that statement he made any way you want to. It still shows the drastic change from him going from worrying about his chakra levels because of 2 uses of kamui(to the point where he needs someone to take care of his body), to using it 4 times after using god knows how much chakra prior to. He had no time to train inbetween that fight with Sasuke given he had to prep for becoming hokage until Tsunade woke up, and once Tsunade woke up, the war had to be prepped for, and he was one of the generals as well as being on the council in konoha preparing for it.

You're using no logic at all.

Here Kakashi starts using second (unsuccessful) Kamui against Deidara.

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After a moment of doing it, he looks like this:

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Do you really think it didn't tire him? That's kind of funny. I don't think you can argue further with this argument, so I don't need a reply for that.

And time doesn't say anything. We've seen cases of people getting a large power-up in a short period of time.
Take Naruto as an example. When Kakashi left the village to fight Kakuzu and Hidan, Naruto was much below him, basically he was on the same level as on the beginning of Shippuuden.
Before Kakashi's fight against Kakuzu was even concluded, Naruto got stronger to the point of Kakashi stating he's on his level.

I think you need to get this once and for all - people get power-ups in manga and it's too bad if you think "omg that shouldn't be". Kishi doesn't care, I can assure you.

 

[Bogard]

He used Kage Bunshin 2times, not only once. There is a part where you clearly see that his first kage bunshin disappeared, but besides from that i agree. Good explanation. Kakashi is boss anyway :scorps:

 

[Takos]

Two Kakashi fanboys arguing I must watch

Not only arguing, arguing over the matter of Kakashi's performance.
Buy some popcorn as this might take some time.

 

[Takos]

He used Kage Bunshin 2times, not only once. There is a part where you clearly see that his first kage bunshin disappeared, but besides from that i agree. Good explanation. Kakashi is boss anyway :scorps:

I think the only time we saw his KB disappear was after he used both his raidens. Can you show mi the scan, please?

Oops, accidental double post.

 

[Champ]

Not only arguing, arguing over the matter of Kakashi's performance.
Buy some popcorn as this might take some time.

I've read. I agree with EliteKakashi on his plot no jutsu Chakra

 

[Bogard]

I think the only time we saw his KB disappear was after he used both his raidens. Can you show mi the scan, please?

Oops, accidental double post.

We didn't clearly see that disappear, but on these pics, his Kage bunshin is not there anymore:

Spoiler

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It means that his Kage Bunshin somehow disappeared some time after the first Raiden. If it was a Kage Bunshin, he would not have worried against TBB. He used his other Kage Bunshin only after this moment

 

[Takos]

We didn't clearly see that disappear, but on these pics, his Kage bunshin is not there anymore:

Spoiler

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It means that his Kage Bunshin somehow disappeared some time after the first Raiden. If it was a Kage Bunshin, he would not have worried against TBB. He used his other Kage Bunshin only after this moment

Hm, I still wouldn't put it in the analysis, because many people would complain that we haven't exactly seen Kakashi's clone disappearing, and that's kind of true. But you have a point of course!

 

[Draw]

well chouji said in part 1 food pills were developed by the military for war. and were in a war. so they must be on food pills. kakashi used kamui like 2 or 3 times against deidara (i know poor example cause thats when he just started using it) and he was in the hospital for a long ass time. so for him to go through such a change to be able to use 12 kamuis and 10 raikiris (which he said he could use 4 or 5 times in a given day with full chakra in part 1) is a bit of a stretch. but plus rep+ for the effort and good analysis. I'm not disagreeing with you cause i wonder this same stuff, but I'm just saying what i know from the story

 

[EliteKakashi]

Here Kakashi starts using second (unsuccessful) Kamui against Deidara.

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After a moment of doing it, he looks like this:

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Do you really think it didn't tire him? That's kind of funny. I don't think you can argue further with this argument, so I don't need a reply for that.

He looked like that at the moment of doing it because he just got done warping Deidara's arm. There's no difference in his appearance from panel 1 to 2 other than him squinting trying to aim the kamui better. You didn't disprove a single thing I said...

And time doesn't say anything. We've seen cases of people getting a large power-up in a short period of time.
Take Naruto as an example. When Kakashi left the village to fight Kakuzu and Hidan, Naruto was much below him, basically he was on the same level as on the beginning of Shippuuden.
Before Kakashi's fight against Kakuzu was even concluded, Naruto got stronger to the point of Kakashi stating he's on his level.

I think you need to get this once and for all - people get power-ups in manga and it's too bad if you think "omg that shouldn't be". Kishi doesn't care, I can assure you.

Naruto developed an S-ranked technique, which is something he lacked, and on top of doing that, use the shadow clone method of training which allowed him to train insanely faster than really anyone else in the series is capable of. And it wasn't simply due to the rasenshuriken, either. Naruto's tactical intelligence improved as well. I'd argue that Kakashi still > Naruto at that point, but Naruto definitely closed the gap with developing that technique and using that training method.

Kakashi's "power up" would be him now being capable of warping an entire human body instantly with kamui. No one has improved their chakra reserves this drastically in the entire history of this manga, and I know no one has EVER done it without the use of training. You've given no explanation for it. There are several hints that Kakashi was running out of chakra prior to the cloak. It was him saying what he did when creating the clone, then the TBB incident where Gai stated he didn't have enough power to warp the TBB's away(and Kakashi didn't object that statement).

You continually fail to grasp logic. You can make up all your ridiculous formulas for chakra usage, but there is no explanation for Kakashi having this much chakra.

 

[Takos]

well chouji said in part 1 food pills were developed by the military for war. and were in a war. so they must be on food pills. kakashi used kamui like 2 or 3 times against deidara (i know poor example cause thats when he just started using it) and he was in the hospital for a long ass time. so for him to go through such a change to be able to use 12 kamuis and 10 raikiris (which he said he could use 4 or 5 times in a given day with full chakra in part 1) is a bit of a stretch. but plus rep+ for the effort and good analysis. I'm not disagreeing with you cause i wonder this same stuff, but I'm just saying what i know from the story

I know well that these calculations aren't rock-solid, as I explained in the last part. It's true that it is odd for Kakashi to increase his chakra reserves so much, but then again, nobody ever said this couldn't be possible. At least unless we get another explanation, that's what's most logical.

 

[Takos]

He looked like that at the moment of doing it because he just got done warping Deidara's arm. There's no difference in his appearance from panel 1 to 2 other than him squinting trying to aim the kamui better. You didn't disprove a single thing I said...

Look closely. Besides panting, which wasn't present at the panel before it, Kakashi's veins in his eye are even more exposed than they were before. This pretty much tells us that Kakashi indeed exhausts himself from using Kamui, no matter whether he makes a hit or not.

Naruto developed an S-ranked technique, which is something he lacked, and on top of doing that, use the shadow clone method of training which allowed him to train insanely faster than really anyone else in the series is capable of. And it wasn't simply due to the rasenshuriken, either. Naruto's tactical intelligence improved as well. I'd argue that Kakashi still > Naruto at that point, but Naruto definitely closed the gap with developing that technique and using that training method.

Kakashi's "power up" would be him now being capable of warping an entire human body instantly with kamui. No one has improved their chakra reserves this drastically in the entire history of this manga, and I know no one has EVER done it without the use of training. You've given no explanation for it. There are several hints that Kakashi was running out of chakra prior to the cloak. It was him saying what he did when creating the clone, then the TBB incident where Gai stated he didn't have enough power to warp the TBB's away(and Kakashi didn't object that statement).

No one has EVER awakened MS while being non-uchiha, either.
I won't repeat myself for the third time regarding his chakra worries.
As of Guy's statement, he clearly meant that Kakashi would need to kamui all five bijuudamas one after another in a very short period, several second at max. Kakashi was shown to be able to use Kamui instantly, but he never was shown using it continuously one after another. In other words, that statement was not about chakra, but Kakashi's Kamui prowess in general.

You continually fail to grasp logic. You can make up all your ridiculous formulas for chakra usage, but there is no explanation for Kakashi having this much chakra.

There is explanation. Kishi's will. He might do whatever the heck he wants. It wasn't stated that one cannot increase his chakra reserves so much during a short period time, so if Kishi wanted Kakashi to suddenly increase in stamina - he could do it. Kakashi's a genius and it's not the first time he presents something everyone would think to be very difficult (creating a powerful A-rank lightning technique at the age of 13) or even impossible (a non-uchiha awakening Mangekyo).

You say that "I can make up my ridiculous formulas for chakra usage" clearly meaning that you find mathematical analysis stupid or pointless, to say the least. And you still are here, arguing with me even though I clearly stated at the beginning - don't like this form of analysis - don't read it. You don't read it - don't reply.

I think that, after all, it's someone else that has problems grasping logic.
That's what I get for arguing with someone who initially thought Kakashi would faint after using two kamuis, hmm.

Edit:
I'm going to sleep now, so listen carefuly.
You have your opinion (his chakra was restored) and I have mine (his chakra reserves increased). As of now I assume my version the default one while you seem to see yours as default. Default meaning the one used until official explanation is given.
Do you know what's the difference between us, then? The difference is critical thinking.
I don't agree with your theory, but I take it into account as a thing that might affect the reliablity of my calculation. Look, whole part 3 of the thread is devoted to finding arguments to show that my own analysis doesn't work.
That's what we call critical thinking. Looking at both sides of a coin. That's what you lack. You don't even consider the possiblity of me being right. You started to tell me I don't use logic long before the post I'm replying to. You did it even after I presented a rebuttal. I guess my nerves had their limits, too, as in this very post I also started to say you don't grasp logic. Now, from time perspective, I'm aware of that.

If you're thinking of an argument, you should immediately think of a rebuttal to that. If you don't find any rebuttal, find an unrelated argument against. That's the way of being as unbiased as possible. I don't always manage to do that, because it's not so easy, but I think I was successful in this thread.

Yeah, and that would be all from me. See you around.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Haha, this comment made my day. Thanks!



First of all, this wall of text is rather unclear, you should make some paragraphs.
Second of all, the only assumption I made in this analysis is that Kamui always consumes the same amount of chakra. In the same post, in part 3, I explained why this assumption was necessary - otherwise there would be no analysis at all.

I explained all the possible things that might affect the reliability of these calculations. Now it's up to you to decide whether Kakashi at full chakra can use 8 kamui instead of calculated 12 or 16.
This is just analysis, there is no conclusion. This was made in order to encourage people to make their opinions on this subject and show them the the approximate number of Kamuis Kakashi can use.

Hope we're good now.

the only assumption I made in this analysis is that Kamui always consumes the same amount of chakra.

So you admit to assuming ? that is all that needs to be said assuming means you have no facts and no facts means its a theory deal with it.

I explained all the possible things that might affect the reliability of these calculations. Now it's up to you to decide whether Kakashi at full chakra can use 8 kamui instead of calculated 12 or 16.

Too bad opinions don't equate to facts either whether they THINK its 12 or 16 is not my point the point is its unclear so like i said earlier its pure speculative.

as for my wall of text ill break it down

Either kakashi learned to control his chakra outtake 2. He ate soldier pills 3. Like i mentioned above he stated himself he was worried about his chakra levels but rushed into battle anyway that means if he is pushing his limits he is able to do more justu since at the moment he is not worried about conserving because there is a war going on and he is putting him life on the line

other then that we do not know and it does not look like kishi is going to break it down anytime soon so doing math will not help

 

[Hokage Sharingan Kakashi]

Nice, great analysis, man.