Final (We hope) Countdown. Tobi ID theories and discsussions

Who do you think Tobi is?

  • Jubbi

    Votes: 5 0.6%
  • Sage of Six Paths O.O

    Votes: 14 1.6%
  • Izuna uchiha

    Votes: 170 19.6%
  • Kagami uchiha

    Votes: 97 11.2%
  • Obito Uchiha

    Votes: 177 20.4%
  • Fugaku Uchiha

    Votes: 9 1.0%
  • Shisui Uchiha

    Votes: 17 2.0%
  • Setsuna Uchiha

    Votes: 4 0.5%
  • Madara's Son

    Votes: 12 1.4%
  • Obito's father

    Votes: 18 2.1%
  • Madara's split personality (created before original body died.)

    Votes: 39 4.5%
  • A copycat whose rolemodel is Madara.

    Votes: 7 0.8%
  • An unknown Uchiha

    Votes: 21 2.4%
  • Real Madara in Zetsu body

    Votes: 5 0.6%
  • Some one from Madara's time ( can't decide though)

    Votes: 10 1.2%
  • Elder son of Sage of Sixth Path

    Votes: 44 5.1%
  • Zetsu

    Votes: 21 2.4%
  • First Edo tensie

    Votes: 2 0.2%
  • Tobirama

    Votes: 8 0.9%
  • Another Senju

    Votes: 4 0.5%
  • An Uzumaki

    Votes: 10 1.2%
  • Tobi (No one we know)

    Votes: 31 3.6%
  • The ramen guy

    Votes: 71 8.2%
  • Someone other than these.

    Votes: 23 2.7%
  • I am done. No theory. ( Not anymore at least.)

    Votes: 48 5.5%

  • Total voters
    867
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zeezzay

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that just doesn't make any sense. why would he hate the uchiha? he would be the ultimate symbol of the hidden leaf if that were the case. you know...the whole unification of the senju and uchiha.
He hated the uchiha cause he is half senju dude. The uchiha didn't like him cause he was half senju. Just like back in the olden days if ur parents were from two different culture or race u would be hated by both culture or race. Tobi also takes tobi from tobimaraa just like how ino takes her father name inochou whatever his name is. Also tobi can use the same technique as tobimaraa. Tobi can activate the reingagan dude u need bothe uchiha and senju DNA to do that dude. Tobi mother is uchiha.but if tobis not tobimaraa son then he is izuna. What do u mean by unification I don't know what that word means English is not my first mother tongue so explain me pls thanks.:)
 

OnPoint

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Right, this post is going to outline, in detail, why I believe that Tobi is likely the Elder son of Rikudo Sennin. It's quite long, so prepare yourselves.

To begin. We know that the Sage of 6 Paths was the legendary figure who founded the arts of ninjutsu and created the ninja world. The legends describe his feat of defeating the Juubi by sealing it's power within himself and, ultimately, encasing it's body in rock with the power granted to him by the Rinnegan; this body of Earth later became to .

Rikudo Sennin was said to have two sons; his Eldest son was born with the sages 'eyes' and inherited his powerful chakra and spiritual energy. His Youngest son, on the other hand, was blessed with the Sage's 'body' - some of the perks he received included were powerful life force and physical energy. What's important about these two people, however, is their ; the former believed 'might' or 'power' was the key to peace, whereas the latter maintained that peace could be achieved through love. What parallels can we draw between Tsuki no me and the Elder son's ideology? Both suggest that true peace can only be found after the use of excessive force - Tobi has started a war and intends to use the power of the Juubi in order to forcefully suppress the Shinobi world; the eternal genjutsu is his definition of ' '.

Something which you may also want to consider is the possibility that the Rikudo Sennin may not have actually had a wife; his sons may actually be the result of him using Banbutsu Sozo (Creation of all things). It is said that it entailed the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to create shape and form from nothingness. Then, through the application of vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, he would into the prior form. Supposedly, this is how the 9 Bijuu were born from the Juubi's chakra - this is merely speculation at this point though it gives us something to think about. The Sage may've created his sons imperfectly; meaning, the Elder son may've been 'born' with a fatal flaw; hatred.

Moving on. The Sage of 6 Paths, on his deathbed, was forced to choose his successor - it was his Youngest son, as he had faith that his ideology (rather than his brother's) was what the world truely needed. It was from this that, according to Tobi, the Uchiha's arose, since the descendants of the Elder son became the Uchiha whereas those who came from the Younger son formed the Senju clan. Bitter that his brother was chosen ahead of him, the Elder son , thus starting the eternal conflict between the two clans. Look at how Tobi speaks of these events; he speaks as if he experienced them first hand (ignoring the fact that he has undertook the identity of Madara Uchiha at this point in ther story). We must question how he could possibly know so much, considering shinobi such as Kakashi believed the Sage of 6 Paths to be a myth. This is a view held by even the large majority of people, seeing as they disregarded Shodai's power as mere myth since they did not believe in his legendary exploits - in the same way that they did not believe in power. So it's interesting to see how much Tobi knows, and, importantly, how strongly he believes this information; first hand experience seems likely.

Tobi claimed that he is nothing other than a shadow of his former self - why is this important? Well, even while being nothing more than 'weaker version' of his earlier days, Tobi was still powerful enough to fight against Yondaime - his power even enabled him to successfully subjugate Kurama. Characters such as Fugaku, Kagami and Obito were never on that level of power, so they could not be in the position to claim they are mere shadows of their former selves. We can conclude from this statement alone that Tobi must've been, in his true form, an uber HAX character; who better than the Eldest son of the Sage of 6 Paths himself?

Let's continue to cast our minds back to the night on Naruto's birth. Tobi said something very interesting which is often overlooked, something which he directed . "Do you have any idea how long i've waited for this?". I feel that this information is key in understanding who Tobi really is. Proclaiming that Tobi is Obito does not seem to fit with this statement, since Obito's death occured only around a year before this attack. Tobi speaks as if he'd waited eons in order to carry out this assault; something much more suited to a man who has been around since, not only the beginning of Konoha, but the beginning of the Uchiha clan itself. But how could the Elder son live so long? one might ask. It's very plausible that he has been using other people's bodies as vessels for some time now; passing on one's spirit is definately something we can attribute to a man who inherited the Sage's spiritual energy. Perhaps it can be likened to the technique used by Orochimaru. What is important to note here, however, is that the Elder son may be using Obito's psuedo-Zetsu body as his current vessel, since it has now been confirmed that he is, at the very least, .

Another thought which would be wise not to rule is the proposition that there were, infact, two people who undertook the alias Tobi. I question why Itachi would decide to try and finish Tobi with a after his death (if he knew full well of Tobi's intangibilty techniques). This has lead me to believe that there is a possibility that, at different times in history, Madara Uchiha himself played the role of Tobi - it wasn't simply the Elder son at all times. Why? Itachi seemed convinced that Tobi really was Uchiha Madara, and we can see between him and Edo Madara interms of his hair style and posture at different points in the story. It'd also make sense that the man really was Uchiha Madara. It does not follow that Itachi, a genius among men, would be fooled so easily - that is to say, it does not go along with the way that Kishimoto has drawn his character. This further makes sense when we consider that Madara . Madara and Tobi were working together from the start; Nagato would be the young Uzumaki boy who would ultimately revive Madara (who was well past his prime and possibly dying of illness or injury). Tobi and Madara are aware of Tsuki no me.

Further key points we should think about are:

- Tobi claims to be 'no-one' - thus far, the Elder son is nameless.
- His infamous when describing whether or not Izuna willingly handed over his eyes relates to the fact that the Senju and Uchiha formed an alliance (the descendants of the very brother he formed his eternal fued with); this was not a direct response which suggests that Tobi is Izuna.
- Madara confirmed that after his brother had died all he left him was his eyes - this being during his discussion with Tsunade where she proclaimed that Shodai Hokage left her something much more valuable (his will).
- Madara seems war of , whilst both he and Kabuto question whether the 'fake Madara' will to plan. Who would have the balls to go against Madara Uchiha? Er, the guy who basically started the clan - the Elder son. Izuna is too loyal to Madara to question his authority, since he willingly gave up his eyes (his power) - all this despite knowing both he and his brother were equals in every way.
- Tobi's actions and thinking go against Obito's 'Will of Fire' personality. It also does not wholly tie in with the timeline.

I guess that's all, for now.
 
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drxdroopy

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Oh..this is awesome, here we go.





To add to this old post of mine, one of the biggest arguments aside from Obito being crushed is tha the timeline between Madara and Tobi working together doesn't match with Obito's timeline. What readers fail to see however is that Kishi never gave any solid proof as to when Tobi and Madar actually met. There's absolutely none...

Another argument is why would Madara choose a half dying kid to ressurect him? It actually makes perfect sense that he would. If he was able to brainwash Obito with his own ideals throughout his earlier years, mentor him, and then place Zetsu there with him after he's gone. Then trusting a kid whose been trained to follow your way is much more guaranteeing that trusting an adult whose already mature enough to have his own view of how the shinobi world should be.

I mean one miscalculation in their character and ideals, and he's not being ressurected...

I'm almost certain Madara thought of this.

And then there's the bigger issue of Obito's death. Miracles happen even in real life though, people living with disfigured body parts because of terrible accidents. I don't know why it's so impossible to believe that it's possible in a manga lol. Especially when there' a tech like the rinnegan.


Well that's all. ^^ Though I'm slowly developing another theory (Obito and the elder son involved) but have to think on it some more.



Okay, thought about it, and here's what I came up with.


________________________________________________________
THEORY 2


Tobi is indeed the elder son, but is using Obito's body. Okay, Madara took his brother's eyes and gained EMS, and then went back to read the stone. But what he saw was more than details about the Sharingan left by the so6p, he saw something the elder son left himself, the details on how to ressurect him and his aid in th reader's quest for more power. Afterall, anyone who has obtained the EMS and seeks further knowledge by reading the stone is without a doutb seeking more power. The elder son knew this, and used it to guarantee his return.

But he came back "incomplete", in other words he was very weak, and paled in comparison to Madara's strength...

However, he had a rinnegan of his own. They came up with a plan (I will mention later), this plan involved the creation of Zetsu. Anyways, he told Madara he must have a near death experiece. But Hashi actually KILLED Madara, afterall, it's unlikely that Hashi wasn't sure that he was dead. What he didn't know...is that the elder son was alive and possessed the eyes we know as the rinnegan. The elder son ressurected Madara, but he couldn't have done so without consuming lots of chakra from an already weak body (or whatever the heck he was). So Zetsu, who can replenish chakra was created from an experiement on how "Tobi" (Getting tired of saying elder son) could survive the depletion of chakra as a result from using the rinne tensei.

After this, Madara had the rinnegan which he unlocked just before he died. He either consumed hashi's cells ro lived naturally. Anyway he lived to meet Nagato, this boy was just perfect, he was an Uzumaki who possessed lots of chakra. And since Tobi wasn't in the condition to actually handle the rinnegan, he passed it on to Nagato.

Tobi and Madara then planned for Madara's ressurection later, but there was something Madara and Tobi had to do, get Tobi a more suitable body than what he had...

This is where Obito comes in at, Madara then used his own rinnegan to revive Obito. And some unknown technique was used that allowed Tobi to enter his body. Depending on the effects caused by this tech, Obito may have aged from this, Madara then passed on. And then Tobi makes his attack (along with his new found techs from obito's sharingan) on the Leaf.

Haha, it's just a theory.[/QUOTe\]





nice
 

Senju Nuon

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Hey all,

This will be my first post on N.B. I have been reading Naruto and entering the forums on NB for about 4-5 years. Prior to this I read Naruto on the One Manga website, until they moved/closed their site down.

With the big reveal coming soon about who Tobi is, I thought it would be a good time to throw in my thoughts on Tobi and fuel some last minute debates (hopefully we don't have to wait longer).

I'm not going to assume or weight in on who I think Tobi is. To be honest I think Tobi is someone that we have seen in flashbacks, think is dead, and their name is not Izuna, Obito, or Kagami. Maybe I'll make a post about it if there is time.

What I want to focus on in this post is the alternate dimension that Naruto (clone or real) and Tobi are inside of. We know that Kakashi's Kamui and Tobi's Kamui (Obito's eye) are connected to the this dimension. As far as we know their eyes is the only way into and out of this dimension.

Both Kakashi & Tobi's versions of Kamui are considered Space/Time Jutsu's (Tobi's being a stronger/more varied version than what Kakashi is capable of right now). We have seen the Space aspect of Kamui (bringing things & people in/out of this dimension, what i will refer to as Spatial displacement). But what about Kamui makes it a time displacement jutsu. I have not seen an explanation for this in the manga that I can recall.

I read in someone's thread a brief theory that did not have to much detail, just words with no logic, that coincides with what I think about this dimension. I wanted to post this under that thread but can not find again anymore, maybe deleted. If this idea is a repeat, I apologize, as much as I have searched, I could not find something similar to it.

My thought about this dimension is this: The alternate dimension has a different sense of time than the narutoverse everyone lives in. Time either goes slower or faster (I do not know which) in this dimension. To make a comparison, think Dragonball Z and the Time Chamber at Kami's house in the clouds. The Z fighters walked into the time chamber and trained for a year inside, but only 1 day passed for everyone outside the chamber. Kiski has been said to be a fan of DB Z, and may have taken this dimension idea from here.



Now for those who wish to know how this affects the who is Tobi debate, below are 2 ideas: (I have no opinion either way as it does not affect who I think tobi is)


1. If time flows faster in the alternate dimension than the normal Naruto world: Example - One year inside Alt dimension = 1 day in Naruto world

This gives fuel for Tobi = Obito believers.

(Now I have no idea how Obito could have survived the rocks). But, If Obito's body survived the rockfall, and if he has been using this dimension often enough or long enough, being in the alternate dimension would have caused the following:

a) Obito would have aged quicker because he spent a lot of time in this dimension
b) Spending a year in this dimension, once out his hair would have grown pretty long
c) Spending a lot of time in the dimension would have allowed him to master the jutsu relativly quickly.


2. If time flows slower in the alternate dimension than the normal world: Example - One year in Naruto World = 1day inside alt dimension.


This guves fuel to Tobi = Izuna believers

However Izuna came about obtaining Obito's eye after Obito's death or however Izuna came back from being dead (as Tobi states), Time flowing slower in this dimension would allow Izana the following:

a) Conserve his age. For example if Izuna was 50 when he obtained Obito's eye, and he spent a lot of time in the alternate dimension, he would not look much older today than he did when he took the eye.
b)The slower time flow would also give Izuna time to master the space time ability from within the alternate dimension, which would explain how he was able to fight against the 4th with such mastery of an eye he aquired only a few years earlier at the bridge. You could also insert other Uchiha's who are older in place of Izuna as well.


In any case, however you think to use my thoughts on the Alternate dimension, I think there is more to this alternate dimension than just the blocks Kishi has shown us. And the explanation of the dimension will come hand and hand with the explanation of who Tobi is.


Let me know your thoughts on the alternate dimension.
 

TheJaktplan

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Just so it's written down (making it a goddamn fact, obviously), I thought Obito was Tobi as soon as he dropped the "I'm an idiot" facade. I mean, how else could Minato have kicked his ass so hard unless he hadn't perfected his jutsu yet?

Anyway. If it's Obito, I can at least reference back to this confession. To myself. Since I don't talk to anyone about this manga anyway.
 

bK 2 iNsAn3

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I honestly hope that "Tobi" is some that is unknown to the story. It would really be sad if he ends up being obito or izuna IMO. But I wouldn't care who he is Naruto is still an amazing manga and I love everything bout it
 

katandthehat

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Right, this post is going to outline, in detail, why I believe that Tobi is likely the Elder son of Rikudo Sennin. It's quite long, so prepare yourselves.

To begin. We know that the Sage of 6 Paths was the legendary figure who founded the arts of ninjutsu and created the ninja world. The legends describe his feat of defeating the Juubi by sealing it's power within himself and, ultimately, encasing it's body in rock with the power granted to him by the Rinnegan; this body of Earth later became to .

Rikudo Sennin was said to have two sons; his Eldest son was born with the sages 'eyes' and inherited his powerful chakra and spiritual energy. His Youngest son, on the other hand, was blessed with the Sage's 'body' - some of the perks he received included were powerful life force and physical energy. What's important about these two people, however, is their ; the former believed 'might' or 'power' was the key to peace, whereas the latter maintained that peace could be achieved through love. What parallels can we draw between Tsuki no me and the Elder son's ideology? Both suggest that true peace can only be found after the use of excessive force - Tobi has started a war and intends to use the power of the Juubi in order to forcefully suppress the Shinobi world; the eternal genjutsu is his definition of ' '.

Something which you may also want to consider is the possibility that the Rikudo Sennin may not have actually had a wife; his sons may actually be the result of him using Banbutsu Sozo (Creation of all things). It is said that it entailed the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to create shape and form from nothingness. Then, through the application of vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, he would into the prior form. Supposedly, this is how the 9 Bijuu were born from the Juubi's chakra - this is merely speculation at this point though it gives us something to think about. The Sage may've created his sons imperfectly; meaning, the Elder son may've been 'born' with a fatal flaw; hatred.

Moving on. The Sage of 6 Paths, on his deathbed, was forced to choose his successor - it was his Youngest son, as he had faith that his ideology (rather than his brother's) was what the world truely needed. It was from this that, according to Tobi, the Uchiha's arose, since the descendants of the Elder son became the Uchiha whereas those who came from the Younger son formed the Senju clan. Bitter that his brother was chosen ahead of him, the Elder son , thus starting the eternal conflict between the two clans. Look at how Tobi speaks of these events; he speaks as if he experienced them first hand (ignoring the fact that he has undertook the identity of Madara Uchiha at this point in ther story). We must question how he could possibly know so much, considering shinobi such as Kakashi believed the Sage of 6 Paths to be a myth. This is a view held by even the large majority of people, seeing as they disregarded Shodai's power as mere myth since they did not believe in his legendary exploits - in the same way that they did not believe in power. So it's interesting to see how much Tobi knows, and, importantly, how strongly he believes this information; first hand experience seems likely.

Tobi claimed that he is nothing other than a shadow of his former self - why is this important? Well, even while being nothing more than 'weaker version' of his earlier days, Tobi was still powerful enough to fight against Yondaime - his power even enabled him to successfully subjugate Kurama. Characters such as Fugaku, Kagami and Obito were never on that level of power, so they could not be in the position to claim they are mere shadows of their former selves. We can conclude from this statement alone that Tobi must've been, in his true form, an uber HAX character; who better than the Eldest son of the Sage of 6 Paths himself?

Let's continue to cast our minds back to the night on Naruto's birth. Tobi said something very interesting which is often overlooked, something which he directed . "Do you have any idea how long i've waited for this?". I feel that this information is key in understanding who Tobi really is. Proclaiming that Tobi is Obito does not seem to fit with this statement, since Obito's death occured only around a year before this attack. Tobi speaks as if he'd waited eons in order to carry out this assault; something much more suited to a man who has been around since, not only the beginning of Konoha, but the beginning of the Uchiha clan itself. But how could the Elder son live so long? one might ask. It's very plausible that he has been using other people's bodies as vessels for some time now; passing on one's spirit is definately something we can attribute to a man who inherited the Sage's spiritual energy. Perhaps it can be likened to the technique used by Orochimaru. What is important to note here, however, is that the Elder son may be using Obito's psuedo-Zetsu body as his current vessel, since it has now been confirmed that he is, at the very least, .

Another thought which would be wise not to rule is the proposition that there were, infact, two people who undertook the alias Tobi. I question why Itachi would decide to try and finish Tobi with a after his death (if he knew full well of Tobi's intangibilty techniques). This has lead me to believe that there is a possibility that, at different times in history, Madara Uchiha himself played the role of Tobi - it wasn't simply the Elder son at all times. Why? Itachi seemed convinced that Tobi really was Uchiha Madara, and we can see between him and Edo Madara interms of his hair style and posture at different points in the story. It'd also make sense that the man really was Uchiha Madara. It does not follow that Itachi, a genius among men, would be fooled so easily - that is to say, it does not go along with the way that Kishimoto has drawn his character. This further makes sense when we consider that Madara . Madara and Tobi were working together from the start; Nagato would be the young Uzumaki boy who would ultimately revive Madara (who was well past his prime and possibly dying of illness or injury). Tobi and Madara are aware of Tsuki no me.

Further key points we should think about are:

- Tobi claims to be 'no-one' - thus far, the Elder son is nameless.
- His infamous when describing whether or not Izuna willingly handed over his eyes relates to the fact that the Senju and Uchiha formed an alliance (the descendants of the very brother he formed his eternal fued with); this was not a direct response which suggests that Tobi is Izuna.
- Madara confirmed that after his brother had died all he left him was his eyes - this being during his discussion with Tsunade where she proclaimed that Shodai Hokage left her something much more valuable (his will).
- Madara seems war of , whilst both he and Kabuto question whether the 'fake Madara' will to plan. Who would have the balls to go against Madara Uchiha? Er, the guy who basically started the clan - the Elder son. Izuna is too loyal to Madara to question his authority, since he willingly gave up his eyes (his power) - all this despite knowing both he and his brother were equals in every way.
- Tobi's actions and thinking go against Obito's 'Will of Fire' personality. It also does not wholly tie in with the timeline.

I guess that's all, for now.
:ice: +rep
 
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I think there's something everybody is forgetting - Obito's half body with the other sharingan was completely crushed by boulders. The only way for it to remain intact is to have been send to another dimention but this makes no sense, 'cause Obito had barely awoken the sharingan, plus he was on the verge of death. So how could have Tobi got the eye?
 

zzsdkzz

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There's obviously a piece of the puzzle we're missing.

My final guess is the following:

Madara found and saved Obito, and began to train him under his wing. Long Haired masked man was the real Madara, while short haired masked man is Obito. Long Haired Masked man controlled the Mizukage, at which point Madara had met Kisame.

Through affiliation, Kisame became aware of Obito's training. Kisame may have helped train Obito at some point, who knows.

When Tobi takes off his mask to reveal himself to Kisame, he says:
"Well that's interesting. I would've never suspected you were Tobi. I mean, Madara. "

^ Wait, what? Kisame has seen the masked man before(Mizukage control reveal), but this new masked man, with a near identical mask, isn't the same person he had met before? This, to me, is the biggest indication that there were indeed two different masked men.

We've never seen Long Haired Masked Man display the S/T technique, only the short haired version. After Madara passed away, Obito likely took over the mask to honor his teacher/savior.
 

ashite

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It is possible that tobi could actually be a member of the hidden mist, or not an uchiha at all. Go back to chapter 404 pages 1&2 we see here kisame calls tobi mizukage. This is for a reason, if you go to chapter 507 pages 12&13 we see that tobi was the one who was actually controlling yondaime mizukage, he tells kisame to join him and this is the start of akatsuki. We also know tobi has a collection of sharingan eyes so he doesn't necessarily HAVE to be an uchuha.
 

hunk143

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Here's my theory why he shouldn't be an Uchiha except Obito himself.

If one Uchiha transplants another Uchiha's eye then he gets to keep both the patterns! Right?

See here:

You must be registered for see images



If this ^ stands true then that only means that Tobi either has Obito's eyes and he is not an Uchiha or He's just Obito himself! :eek:

I'm ruling out any other Uchiha here eg: Kagami, Izuna etc.
 

thegame

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Here's my theory why he shouldn't be an Uchiha except Obito himself.

If one Uchiha transplants another Uchiha's eye then he gets to keep both the patterns! Right?

See here:

You must be registered for see images



If this ^ stands true then that only means that Tobi either has Obito's eyes and he is not an Uchiha or He's just Obito himself! :eek:

I'm ruling out any other Uchiha here eg: Kagami, Izuna etc.
Did you even read the manga?
 

darthvader5666

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He's not Obito. He just has Obito's body.

-Madara knows him, and he died before Obito was born.

-He said he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. If Obito was even born by the time Nagato awakened his rinnegan, he was a kid.

-When he extracted the Kyuubi from Kushina, he said something like "do you have ANY idea how long I've been waiting for this?" He's obviously been waiting a while (decades, at least) and is obviously pretty old.

-He called Konan, who's like 40, a "little girl" or something like that. Which, again, means that he's old.

-He knows too much (all about Madara, all about S06P, etc). Don't see how Obito can know all the shit Tobi does.

It's pretty obvious Tobi isn't Obito. That would just leave too many major plot holes.
 
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