Nagato outsmarted/overpowered by Itachi

[UniversalPain]

Itachi has no counter vs CT.

His counter would more than likely be Izanagi.

 

[Munboy]

You need Uchiha and Senju powers to have Izanagi. Itachi does not have Senju powers.

 

[true enigma]

You need Uchiha and Senju powers to have Izanagi. Itachi does not have Senju powers.

Izanagi can be used by a full blood uchiha without senju dna however if u r not born with the uchiha KG then u need senju dna.

 

[true enigma]

Anyways i have already made a thread on how they are equal and i will stick to my theory and reasons.

 

[Munboy]

Izanagi can be used by a full blood uchiha without senju dna however if u r not born with the uchiha KG then u need senju dna.

Tobi described Izanagi to us: he said it is a jutsu which can only be used by those who possess the powers of the Uchiha and Senju.
It isn't a stretch that the Uchiha - whom were notorious for doing vicious things for power - would take the power of their rivals to gain power?

 

[ixc]

Nagato might have a very wide range of jutsu but Itachi can easily discern his opponent's jutsu and always finds a way to counter them. Intelligence is also a key factor in battle, not just power. Not to mention, Itachi himself is also powerful.

Dude finally someone with brains. I've said it too often WHO WAS THE ONE WHO SAID THAT EVERY JUTSU HAD A WEAKNESS!? Itachi right? Remember what Zetsu said in the fight between Sasuke and Itachi? Someone who throws rocks can still defeat someone with kunai's. Anyways the bloody point is, is that Itachi uses his jutsu's to the fullest. There are alot of characters who MIGHT be stronger than Itachi when you compare all the shit together but Itachi uses his Jutsu as they should be used. That's why i say that Itachi is the strongest, not by raw strength/power but because he outbrains his opponents and indeed always finds a way to counter the opponent's Jutsu. Not to mention that we've never seen his full power and yet owned the shit out of a few respected characters.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Tobi described Izanagi to us: he said it is a jutsu which can only be used by those who possess the powers of the Uchiha and Senju.
It isn't a stretch that the Uchiha - whom were notorious for doing vicious things for power - would take the power of their rivals to gain power?

But when Itachi explained izanami it became clear that any Uchiha could use izanagi. So Tobi meant that senju dna is needed to perfect izanagi, cause in a battle 30seconds-1minute is not too much but 10 minutes are more than enough.

 

[Munboy]

But when Itachi explained izanami it became clear that any Uchiha could use izanagi. So Tobi meant that senju dna is needed to perfect izanagi, cause in a battle 30seconds-1minute is not too much but 10 minutes are more than enough.

Itachi explained Izanami to us. That isn't the same as explaining Izanagi's requirements to us.

Tobi clearly meant that to obtain Izanagi (his choice of words, no matter the translation suggest this) you need Uchiha and Senju DNA. To perfect Izanagi, you require full control over the Senju cells.
For example: Danzo had Senju-Uchiha powers, thus Izanagi. Yet he didn't control the Senju part, but still had Izanagi. Tobi controls both parts fully and as a perfect Izanagi because of that.

Itachi only showed us that normal Uchiha can use Izanami. That, however, doesn't imply normal Uchiha can use Izanagi.

 

[iMicLykTyson]

Itachi explained Izanami to us. That isn't the same as explaining Izanagi's requirements to us.

Tobi clearly meant that to obtain Izanagi (his choice of words, no matter the translation suggest this) you need Uchiha and Senju DNA. To perfect Izanagi, you require full control over the Senju cells.
For example: Danzo had Senju-Uchiha powers, thus Izanagi. Yet he didn't control the Senju part, but still had Izanagi. Tobi controls both parts fully and as a perfect Izanagi because of that.

Itachi only showed us that normal Uchiha can use Izanami. That, however, doesn't imply normal Uchiha can use Izanagi.

but itachi said the uchiha's used izanagi during critical battles, does this mean every uchiha fought with a senju to acquire the dna? No. Kish contradicts himself on alot of occasions.

 

[Munboy]

but itachi said the uchiha's used izanagi during critical battles, does this mean every uchiha fought with a senju to acquire the dna? No. Kish contradicts himself on alot of occasions.

Why does that mean the Uchiha didn't fight Senju to acquire their DNA? Senju existed as long as the Uchiha did, so it is still possible.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Itachi explained Izanami to us. That isn't the same as explaining Izanagi's requirements to us.

Tobi clearly meant that to obtain Izanagi (his choice of words, no matter the translation suggest this) you need Uchiha and Senju DNA. To perfect Izanagi, you require full control over the Senju cells.
For example: Danzo had Senju-Uchiha powers, thus Izanagi. Yet he didn't control the Senju part, but still had Izanagi. Tobi controls both parts fully and as a perfect Izanagi because of that.

Itachi only showed us that normal Uchiha can use Izanami. That, however, doesn't imply normal Uchiha can use Izanagi.

Yeah I see your point i've been thinking of it myself for a long time too but it makes sense only if Uchihas can use both izanagi and izanami. IMO

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Itachi has no counter vs CT.

Magatama is the counter, and before you say it show proof where it says Magatama by itself isnt enough

 

[iMicLykTyson]

Why does that mean the Uchiha didn't fight Senju to acquire their DNA? Senju existed as long as the Uchiha did, so it is still possible.

Then again you may be right afterall both clans where constantly in battle against each other

 

[Munboy]

Yeah I see your point i've been thinking of it myself for a long time too but it makes sense only if Uchihas can use both izanagi and izanami. IMO

I have no doubt that only the Uchiha - more specifically users of the Sharingan - are capable of using Izanagi. However due to Tobi the jutsu requires alteration to the Sharingan user, Senju augmentation. Izanagi is an adaptation of the Rikudou Sennin's power, so logically to use a jutsu close to it you need to be closer to the Sage -- Uchiha (eyes) and Senju (body) powers fit the bill.

Magatama is the counter, and before you say it show proof where it says Magatama by itself isnt enough

You must be registered for see links

. We've seen what singled out Magatama can do, and they (alongside the page I provided) pale in comparison to Rasenshuriken and Bijuu-Dama.

So it isn't likely that Magatama in-itself is a viable CT counter.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I have no doubt that only the Uchiha - more specifically users of the Sharingan - are capable of using Izanagi. However due to Tobi the jutsu requires alteration to the Sharingan user, Senju augmentation. Izanagi is an adaptation of the Rikudou Sennin's power, so logically to use a jutsu close to it you need to be closer to the Sage -- Uchiha (eyes) and Senju (body) powers fit the bill.

Still, I'm convinced about the opposite I think both options would make sense but only one can be true Yeah Tobi said what he said but I dont think for example that the Uchihas were fighting the senju and they took care to get their blood then implanted the dna into themselves...besides Tobi had Hashirama's cells and so did danzo, not some random senju so why is that

 

[Munboy]

Still, I'm convinced about the opposite I think both options would make sense but only one can be true Yeah Tobi said what he said but I dont think for example that the Uchihas were fighting the senju and they took care to get their blood then implanted the dna into themselves...besides Tobi had Hashirama's cells and so did danzo, not some random senju so why is that

Going by Tobi's description Senju (not Hashirama, specifically) can be used.
Guys like Danzo, Madara and Tobi all went for Hashirama - likely because - his DNA would not only give them Senju powers, but also Mokuton and the ability to control Bijuu.

Hashirama's DNA was like 'Senju+'.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Going by Tobi's description Senju (not Hashirama, specifically) can be used.
Guys like Danzo, Madara and Tobi all went for Hashirama - likely because - his DNA would not only give them Senju powers, but also Mokuton and the ability to control Bijuu.

Hashirama's DNA was like 'Senju+'.

Yes but why would have danzo bothered about controlling Hashi's cells for example if he could easily get Tsunade's?

 

[iMicLykTyson]

Izanagi can only be used by those with the genetic traits of the Sage of the Six Paths. The Uchiha, descended from the Sage, are able to perform Izanagi with their Sharingan. In exchange for the brief control of reality that it allows them, the Sharingan with which Izanagi is cast becomes blind. For this reason the Uchiha labelled it a kinjutsu. Danzō Shimura, in an effort to make practical use of the technique, had ten Sharingan embedded into his right arm.

To make full use of Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju, who are also descended from the Sage.[3] Partially for this reason Danzō had some of Hashirama Senju's DNA transplanted into his arm, which extended the lifespan of each Sharingan's Izanagi to a minute, allowing him to use the technique for up to ten minutes in total, with breaks in between as he deemed necessary. However, because Danzō is not an Uchiha, his chakra levels drop substantially every time a new Sharingan is used to activate the technique.[4] Tobi also makes use of Hashirama's DNA but, in contrast to Danzō, he claims to have gained control over Hashirama's DNA and as such, boasts the completed form of Izanagi.[3]
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this is copied straight from wiki, izanagi is a Uchiha tech, the reason for Tobi's need for senju DNA is to be able to fully use izanagi, izanagi can be used by an Uciha but only for a breif amount of time, Senju DNA prolongs this amount of time, pushing this technique to it's full capabilities and also

When will people stop claiming Izanagi and Izanami requires Senju DNA?

Izanagi and Izanami are both Uchiha techniques.

It's actually Hashirama's DNA that's special. His DNA is used to enhance techniques and increase stamina. With the help of Hashirama's DNA, the users are able to withstand the immense chakra drains from the use of Sharingan and they are able to increase the effectiveness of their techniques.

Danzo used Hashirama's DNA because he couldn't withstand the strain of having 10 active Sharingans all at once. Furthermore, the DNA helped him extend the timelimit of Izanagi to 1 minute each.

Tobi used Hashirama's DNA to make his Izanagi last longer as well. Unlike Danzo, he was able to fully control Hashirama's DNA which enhanced his Izanagi even further. He would have been dead if he did not have the DNA as Izanagi only lasts for the briefest of the moments and Konan's tags exploded for 10 minutes non-stop.

In conclusion; Izanagi and Izanami are both Uchiha techniques and can be used without the need of Hashirama's Senju DNA. However, Hashirama's DNA "completes" the techniques.

 

[Munboy]

Yes but why would have danzo bothered about controlling Hashi's cells for example if he could easily get Tsunade's?

It probably was a choice of: "just have Senju powers" (Tsunade) or "have Senju powers alongside the ability to use Mokuton and Bijuu control" (Hashirama). The latter was a logical choice, especially since controlling the Nine-Tailed Fox was part of Danzo's plan, according to Tobi.

 

[Scooby Doo]

It probably was a choice of: "just have Senju powers" (Tsunade) or "have Senju powers alongside the ability to use Mokuton and Bijuu control" (Hashirama). The latter was a logical choice, especially since controlling the Nine-Tailed Fox was part of Danzo's plan, according to Tobi.

He couldnt really use mokuton, otherwise he would easily break sasuke's susanoo with it,Hashi beat Madara with mokuton...so I think he wanted the 1st's cells not for mokuton, cause he knew he wont be able to control it well, but because hashirama had a strong lifeforce and he wanted to prolong izanagi's time as long as he could, but IMO he could use izanagi without senju dna too, but then it would have lasted only for seconds ...