Hiruzen Sarutobi: "The GOD of shinobi" arguments

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Zetsu stated it when speaking of Itachi using susanoo in conjunction with yata mirror and totsuka sword. That's definitely a powerful combination, but it's definitely not invincible.

Why not? I don't like it since it's just further proof of how HAX the Sharingan can be, but based on Zetsu and the databook, there seems little to no room for invalidation. =/

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"Unrivaled strength"

I don't have access to the viz scans, but when Jiraiya and Naruto meet Tsunade and Shizune in a bar and talk Jiraiya calls Minato a unparalleled shinobi. If I can find the viz scan of it then I'll post, but as of now I don't have access to it. Owarij may though since I always seem him posting viz scans.

Like I pointed out earlier, it's unlikely that those side passages are written by Kishimoto, since Kishimoto removes them from the tankoban always.
And I've already had what Jiraiya says about Minato translated by the wiki's translator:


"I'd say being compared to the Fourth would be harsh on anyone, right. Anyhow, that guy's calibre as a shinobi was number one in history… His brilliant mind was overflowing with talent for techniques… He had popularity galore. Well… he was as handsome a man as I am, no." (「四代目と比べられりゃ誰だってキツイだろーよ。なんせ あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だった…術の才に溢れ頭脳明晰…人望に満ち、まぁ…ワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」, "Yondaime to kuraberarerya dare datte kitsui darō yo. Nanse, ayatsu wa shinobi toshite no utsuwa wa rekidaiichi datta… Jutsu no sai ni afure zunō meiseki… Jinbō ni michi, maa… Washi nami ni otokomae datta shi no~")


Jiraiya refers to Minato's calibre, which as you can see here works the same as the word 'potential', since it refers to 'the level of one's ability or quality'. He was off that caliber, but he didn't fully advance to that level since in the 2nd databook (which came out after that statement) says Hiruzen is stronger than all other Hokage.

The fact is it's blantantly stated in the manga, so by the logic you guys keep throwing out there it can't be refuted.

I know it's blatantly stated in the databook and manga. In fact, I have an old thread that describes why they're almost certainly still one and the same. You can

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.

Databook entry about kamui. Look at the bolded.

Authority of the Gods* (神威, Kamui)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, All ranges
User: Hatake Kakashi

Changing the dimension in one's field of vision.
A lavish, unparalleled dimensional doujutsu!!

Kakashi's original doujutsu, released from the "Mangekyou Sharingan". It allows one to transfer anything to another dimension. If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked. The target is enveloped with a barrier space, and the user concentrates their mind to what they gaze at... The target can struggle helplessly, but against this technique no defence is possible. No matter what, the space will distort and draw the target in.

[picture of Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
→One glare with the "Mangekyou Sharingan". The barrier's location and size can be specified at will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

↓The aim is a little off the mark, hitting the arm... Nevertheless, that part of the arm is pulled apart into small pieces and send to another dimension in an instant...!!
[picture of Deidara's elbow being hit by Kamui]

[picture sequence of Deidara's elbow disappearing]
↑When the technique is invoked, the space at the centre of the barrier is distorted and the target inside the barrier is drawn in completely... There is no technique that can compete against this one. It's a dreadful technique that, with skilled use, can even pull an entire human being into another dimension.

The scenery becomes twisted. And after that~~~!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The trap created by great power

The "Mangekyou Sharingan" is a doujutsu that, with continuous usage, burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of "Kamui," using it in rapid succession puts Kakashi's body at risk as well.

［picture of Kakashi holding his hand over his eye］
↑Kakashi obtained his "Sharingan" though a transplant. The strain his body suffers may be far more severe than the a member of the "Uchiha clan" would suffer.

*Kamui refers to the power, might, and authority of the Gods. That which makes the Gods gods. "Kamu" (神) comes from "kami," meaning "god" or "gods". "I" (威) is a kanji with a complex meaning. The dictionary I use describes it as 「人をおそれ従わせる力。」 ("the power to compel people to do one's bidding through fear"). It also describes it as 「威厳があってしかも荒々しくない。君子の理想的な人柄をいう。」 ("dignity without roughness. The ideal personality of a man of virtue").
I believe it would be best translated as "authority," "majesty," or "might".

Yes and what Deidara did wasn't defending against the technique, he simply moved. xd And the DB even says that at that point Kakashi's aim was rather off, which Kakashi also stated afterward. But again, nowhere does it state that this technique can't be avoided.

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Yes and what Deidara did wasn't defending against the technique, he simply moved. xd And the DB even says that at that point Kakashi's aim was rather off, which Kakashi also stated afterward. But again, nowhere does it state that this technique can't be avoided.

Made my day hahaha

people seem to follow the databook like the bible. So my question is the following is edo-itachi invincible as stated by the databook (yata mirror)?

 

[-Vegeta-]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

In the scan you are refering to it went like this

"It's really hard for anyone to compare to yondaime, he truly had talent to become the strongest of them all"

"And even that yondaime died young.."

Jiraya said minato had talent to become really strong, he never accomplished that..
minato was never in his prime and is not the strongest what so ever



as for the raikage scan
viz scan states

"A noble man, a finer shinobi never existed."
they retconned that statement about him being unsurpassable

I'm not sure which scan it was, but this was the quote.

I've read the viz scan of it recently and I recall it saying "Aw, come on everybody pales in comparison to the 4th lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one of a kind".

I already know what the Raikage one says.

Why not? I don't like it since it's just further proof of how HAX the Sharingan can be, but based on Zetsu and the databook, there seems little to no room for invalidation. =/

There's plenty of ways to get by that combination. One of which Gaara revealed recently in it being underground, so it's hardly invincible hence a contradiction.

Like I pointed out earlier, it's unlikely that those side passages are written by Kishimoto, since Kishimoto removes them from the tankoban always.
And I've already had what Jiraiya says about Minato translated by the wiki's translator:


"I'd say being compared to the Fourth would be harsh on anyone, right. Anyhow, that guy's calibre as a shinobi was number one in history… His brilliant mind was overflowing with talent for techniques… He had popularity galore. Well… he was as handsome a man as I am, no." (「四代目と比べられりゃ誰だってキツイだろーよ。なんせ あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だった…術の才に溢れ頭脳明晰…人望に満ち、まぁ…ワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」, "Yondaime to kuraberarerya dare datte kitsui darō yo. Nanse, ayatsu wa shinobi toshite no utsuwa wa rekidaiichi datta… Jutsu no sai ni afure zunō meiseki… Jinbō ni michi, maa… Washi nami ni otokomae datta shi no~")


Jiraiya refers to Minato's calibre, which as you can see here works the same as the word 'potential', since it refers to 'the level of one's ability or quality'. He was off that caliber, but he didn't fully advance to that level since in the 2nd databook (which came out after that statement) says Hiruzen is stronger than all other Hokage.

The viz scans are the official ones, which means they're better than any translator you used to translate it. Anyway the quote is in one of my posts above.

I know it's blatantly stated in the databook and manga. In fact, I have an old thread that describes why they're almost certainly still one and the same. You can

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.

That's all well and good, but until it's proved they're the same person I don't want to hear about it.

Yes and what Deidara did wasn't defending against the technique, he simply moved. xd And the DB even says that at that point Kakashi's aim was rather off, which Kakashi also stated afterward. But again, nowhere does it state that this technique can't be avoided.

Tobi made it quite clear that kamui wouldn't work on him, which leads me to believe that he has quite the defence for it hence a contradiction.

I can post a ton of other points as well, but I didn't feel like going through the hassle.

 

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Made my day hahaha

people seem to follow the databook like the bible. So my question is the following is edo-itachi invincible as stated by the databook (yata mirror)?

Well, basically yeah. He did take out Nagato with the Tosuka Sword after all. =|

I'm not sure which scan it was, but this was the quote.

I've read the viz scan of it recently and I recall it saying "Aw, come on everybody pales in comparison to the 4th lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one of a kind".

I already know what the Raikage one says.

I posted (in my previous post) what Jiraiya said there by the way.

 

[-Vegeta-]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Well, basically yeah. He did take out Nagato with the Tosuka Sword after all. =|



I posted (in my previous post) what Jiraiya said there by the way.

The viz scans are the official scans meaning they're better than any translator you use. So I'll take them over any other translator.

 

[0moi]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Oh my bad, yes he was old. The problem with hiruzen "prime" is that there is nothing to back it up besides the statement - strongest of all kages + god of shinobi. He has not done anything remarkable for characters to comment about it. I hope kishi will show us his prime T_T so we can find out who is stronger between the two

Okay so the 3 statements you made about Hiruzen being weak are void, since all you got for him being physically weak is carrying a full grown ape 2x his size, or a staff made of pure adamantite(which is quite heavy) and commenting that he was heavier than he thought(meaning he use to be able to carry him with ease), yet he carried it, and he was old as s'hit....

 

[Owarij]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

The viz scans are the official scans meaning they're better than any translator you use. So I'll take them over any other translator.

even the viz scan is talking about his potential when they say capacity..
the maximum amount that something can contain... It never said he had reached his full capacity..

it's the same as saying

he had talent to become the strongest ever

No on Ninja had his capacity

same thing, his potential was unlike any other

 

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

There's plenty of ways to get by that combination. One of which Gaara revealed recently in it being underground, so it's hardly invincible hence a contradiction.

Madara wasn't even using the completed Susanoo, while Itachi has/does. Just because that held true for an inferior version doesn't mean it will for it's superior.

The viz scans are the official ones, which means they're better than any translator you used to translate it. Anyway the quote is in one of my posts above.

The translator I use does literal translations, so there's very little room for error really.

That's all well and good, but until it's proved they're the same person I don't want to hear about it.

And until it's proven that they're not the same person, I suppose I don't want to hear about it.

Tobi made it quite clear that kamui wouldn't work on him, which leads me to believe that he has quite the defence for it hence a contradiction.

Because Tobi can jump between dimensions, hence the technique is useless on him, as he said.

I can post a ton of other points as well, but I didn't feel like going through the hassle.

Okay.

The viz scans are the official scans meaning they're better than any translator you use. So I'll take them over any other translator.

You do realize that even you used the translator I used right? Your Kamui translation is ShounenSuki's. Pretty much any databook translation you read online is his, and for good reason. I don't think I've ever seen another translator dispute his translations.

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Okay so the 3 statements you made about Hiruzen being weak are void, since all you got for him being physically weak is carrying a full grown ape 2x his size, or a staff made of pure adamantite(which is quite heavy) and commenting that he was heavier than he thought(meaning he use to be able to carry him with ease), yet he carried it, and he was old as s'hit....

he was physically weak compared to his past and yes i agree with you it is because of his age. Or what is your understanding of physically weak?! Where do you draw the line of what is weak and what´s not?! I was comparing him to his formerself and in my opinion he was physically weak vs oro.

 

[-Vegeta-]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

even the viz scan is talking about his potential when they say capacity..
the maximum amount that something can contain... It never said he had reached his full capacity..

it's the same as saying

he had talent to become the strongest ever

No on Ninja had his capacity

same thing, his potential was unlike any other

Did you miss the part where Jiraiya said "Aw, come on everyone pales in comparison to the 4th lord"?

I don't believe that, but it's stated in the manga, so with the logic you guys are throwing around it can't be refuted by anyone yet plenty of people do.

The fact is Kishi's made plenty of statements in this manga that have been contradicted numerous times.

 

[iknowwhotobiis]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Did you miss the part where Jiraiya said "Aw, come on everyone pales in comparison to the 4th lord"?

I don't believe that, but it's stated in the manga, so with the logic you guys are throwing around it can't be refuted by anyone yet plenty of people do.

The fact is Kishi's made plenty of statements in this manga that have been contradicted numerous times.

yo so the SO6P pales in comparison to the lord?!

Thanks for the lesson!

 

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Did you miss the part where Jiraiya said "Aw, come on everyone pales in comparison to the 4th lord"?

I don't believe that, but it's stated in the manga, so with the logic you guys are throwing around it can't be refuted by anyone yet plenty of people do.

The fact is Kishi's made plenty of statements in this manga that have been contradicted numerous times.

The word 'everyone' (mina, 誰も) isn't in that text. He does say he was of the highest caliber though.

Only very, very small things have been contradicted in this manga, and sometimes it's just an exception to a rule. For example, Haku said that chakra wasn't visible people (other than Dojutsu), but it was shown extremely large amounts were.

At first, Wood Release was called a 'Hiden' technique' but that was changed to a Kekkai Genkai. That's about the closest things to contradictions really.

 

[-Vegeta-]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Madara wasn't even using the completed Susanoo, while Itachi has/does. Just because that held true for an inferior version doesn't mean it will for it's superior.

And where's the proof that it doesn't? The last time I checked nothing changes at the bottom in a full susanoo to say it can't work.

The translator I use does literal translations, so there's very little room for error really.

And that doesn't change the fact that the Viz scans are the official ones.

And until it's proven that they're not the same person, I suppose I don't want to hear about it.

Well considering Madara was brought back via edo tensei pretty much proves Tobi can't be him.

Because Tobi can jump between dimensions, hence the technique is useless on him, as he said.

Hence it's a defence sufficient enough to negate the jutsu thus a contradiction to what the databook stated about it.

Okay.

You do realize that even you used the translator I used right? Your Kamui translation is ShounenSuki's. Pretty much any databook translation you read online is his, and for good reason. I don't think I've ever seen another translator dispute his translations.

And as I said that's all well and good, but the viz scans are the official ones.

And like I said Minato was said to have unrivaled strength on the front of the chapter I posted earlier hence he's above everyone in the manga by your guys logic since nothing can go against Kishi.

 

[Owarij]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Did you miss the part where Jiraiya said "Aw, come on everyone pales in comparison to the 4th lord"?

I don't believe that, but it's stated in the manga, so with the logic you guys are throwing around it can't be refuted by anyone yet plenty of people do.

The fact is Kishi's made plenty of statements in this manga that have been contradicted numerous times.

once again he is talking about what his potentia held.. don't you see he stated he had potential to become the strongest?


as for your unrivaled strength, does it say of all ninjas? if not that statement only refers to of his time..

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Yeah, I know he couldn't help at that very rate. But he also had a chance before/after Minato appearing with a frog and held Kurama.
Well he was retired as hokage but it isn't to take as excuse for what he didn't do. My point is that if Hashirama was in Sarutobi's place then Hashirama could easily pet Kurama... I got strong doubts about those two.

Well Hashirama has a special ability that allows him to capture tail beast

So its not a feat

 

[-Vegeta-]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

once again he is talking about what his potentia held.. don't you see he stated he had potential to become the strongest?

It doesn't really matter anyway because I was only using the example to prove a point.

There's tons of examples of character statements that are fallible, but when it's in favor of a certain character they like they have no problem using it, but when it's not in favor of a character they like they dismiss it as it being not true.

Hypocrisy at its finest. That's why I'll use logical common sense over fallible character statements any day of the week.

As for your unrivaveled strength point. Does it say of his own time? No. It goes both ways my friend.

 

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

And where's the proof that it doesn't? The last time I checked nothing changes at the bottom in a full susanoo to say it can't work.

And last time I checked, we've never really been given much info about the bottom of Susanoo. o.o

And that doesn't change the fact that the Viz scans are the official ones.

What it does change is that they alter what was said a bit to sound better in English, which is the same thing scanlators do, just with better writing. For example, Viz translated Tobi as saying that the Creation of all Things is made of Light Release and Dark Release instead of Yin and Yang.

Well considering Madara was brought back via edo tensei pretty much proves Tobi can't be him.

And the whole point of me linking to a slightly old thread of mine was to show that is not [necessarily] the case.

Hence it's a defence sufficient enough to negate the jutsu thus a contradiction to what the databook stated about it.

I think you should learn the difference between defending against something and circumventing it.

And like I said Minato was said to have unrivaled strength on the front of the chapter I posted earlier hence he's above everyone in the manga by your guys logic since nothing can go against Kishi.

And like I said before, there's no evidence Kishimoto writes those and the fact that he himself ALWAYS removes them from the Tankoban is evidence against him writing them.

 

[Owarij]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

It doesn't really matter anyway because I was only using the example to prove a point.

There's tons of examples of character statements that are fallible, but when it's in favor of a certain character they like they have no problem using it, but when it's not in favor of a character they don't like they dismiss it as it being not true.

Hypocrisy at its finest. That's why I'll use logical common sense over fallible character statements any day of the week.

As for your unrivaveled strength point. Does it say of his own time? No. It goes both ways my friend.

glad to know you think that kishi things minato was the strongest ninja ever (Y)


and go ahead and list those statements

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

And where's the proof that it doesn't? The last time I checked nothing changes at the bottom in a full susanoo to say it can't work.




And that doesn't change the fact that the Viz scans are the official ones.




Well considering Madara was brought back via edo tensei pretty much proves Tobi can't be him.




Hence it's a defence sufficient enough to negate the jutsu thus a contradiction to what the databook stated about it.







And as I said that's all well and good, but the viz scans are the official ones.

And like I said Minato was said to have unrivaled strength on the front of the chapter I posted earlier hence he's above everyone in the manga by your guys logic since nothing can go against Kishi.

Tenten also said Neji was the strongest
I mean Kishimoto made her say it
And Kishimoto is never wrong

 

[Viewtiful]

Re: Hiruzen Sarutobi: The GOD shinobi Vote!!!!

Tenten also said Neji was the strongest
I mean Kishimoto made her say it
And Kishimoto is never wrong

No. She said he was the strongest Genin in Konoha at the time. That's it.