[Theory] Tobi: Thread for all Tobi theories and related discussions .
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Re: Official Tobi ID thread:All Tobi theories go here:-
Are we even sure , that Kishi has hinted the real identity of Tobi ...in the Manga?
He is no one = meaning he can be all wat he wants too be..hes only an Idea.
Are we even sure , that Kishi has hinted the real identity of Tobi ...in the Manga?
He is no one = meaning he can be all wat he wants too be..hes only an Idea.
Shin Zangetsu
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Tobi: The Original Uchiha
Oh man. I never thought I’d actually join in this Tobi shit but here goes. Didn't take too much thought, it just made sense and that's why I believe it for the moment.
Now, where to start. Okay straight to the point. I say he’s the Rikudou Sage’s Elder son. Of course this is not the first time you’ve heard this and just like anyone else’s theory this is something I genuinely believe and I’ll provide adequate reasoning to supplement the statement without just saying it and would love to engage in cool discussion. Here goes.
There are certain things that I can attribute to him being the son:
• Tobi’s knowledge and potential age
• His techniques
• His motives and his current state
• Potential parallels in his storytelling
• His wish to be "complete"
The Elder son’s eyes
Before starting let’s just look back a bit and perhaps agree on one thing. I haven’t read Elder son threads so I’m not exactly sure what people have generally agreed upon as far as the Elder son’s eyes go but it’s already obvious that this is without doubt Mangekyou Sharingan, the very first. What we definitely know is that it isn’t a Rinnegan.
Here we see a Sage of six Paths with a real Rinnegan.
Here we the see the elder son with an eye technique that is certainly not a Rinnegan.
This spiral doujutsu is something I believe to be the Elder son’s unique doujutsu, Mangekyou sharingan. Okay then, back to Tobi.
Tobi’s knowledge and age
Alright this dude knows just about if not everything about the Uchiha. He also seems to be known by Madara who is old as dirt. When he’s not being silly he’s insightful and shares knowledge about the Uchiha history and genetics. The reasons this guy sold his “Madara” story to readers so well is because he speaks as if he has witnessed such events. I believe his stories parallel events that perhaps occurred earlier. This guy loves to play out and watch these battles between the “sons” like Hashirama vs Madara and has directly told Naruto that he’s going to drive him towards a battle with Sasuke.
What he wants from re-enacting these battles I cannot truly say. Because he trained Itachi and most likely guided him towards the clans most powerful secrets, I can only speculate that he may have had a hand in the Madara’s development as well, perhaps for the sole reason of breeding the Rinnegan at some point. Madara didn't just awaken the MS, he was guided. Why he couldn’t do this himself is perhaps due to his present condition. He is in shambles compared to his prime self by his own admission as stated here
This is probably why he is a proxy fighter, never taking any serious action himself until he was ready to begin his final moves. He always gets someone else to stand in his place. This may be why he gave Nagato Madara’s Rinnegan which he in turn considers his eyes because he is the reason Madara unlocked it in the first place. We know he’s being held together with Zetsu’s (who is a topic for another time altogether) parts and he looks old. There are a number of reasons he may be alive. Possibly due to vitality acquired due to his own brother and or a refill from Hashirama later via Zetsu or through his S/T jutsu. Immortality ain't a big thing for certain characters in this mang.
His techniques
He has the most powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu abilities we have witnessed in the manga so far and he executes them with absolute ease. The techniques appear to in all honesty originate from his eye and due to the fact that he doesn’t use any seals can be fairly assumed to be techniques based on his Sharingan. We cannot really deny that.
Now then let’s look at it. I’ll just say it, these advanced techniques that come from his eyes appear to be MS techniques. Yes, despite the fact that he doesn’t have or at least show a Mangekyou pattern, they certainly originate from his eyes and are not part of the base Sharingan menu. We now know that there are other techniques aside from the Big Three....or four...five that can be executed by the Uchiha. These techniques however all require the Mangekyou to actually even be able to do. The prime example is Kakashi’s Kamui.
Now Tobi has shown:
There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that these originate from his eye. They aren’t normal ninjutsu as they require no seals and he does them at will. They are also far too powerful to come from the normal Sharingan and so I consider them MS techniques regardless of Tobi’s appearance while using them. I’d even go so far as to say that his Genjutsu is actually Tsukuyomi. We can see that certain MS techniques differ between individuals all the way from Amaterasu to Susano’o. His Tsukuyomi probably differs in the same way. His Genjutsu techs so far have been based around total mind control. While Itachi creates an isolated world in which he is a god leaving the individual stuck in his mind, Tobi’s seems to be more similar to Shisui’s techniques in having dominance over another’s free will without their knowledge. We are also further aware that he does indeed possess this kind of ability by the very fact that he has already stated he intends to initiate Mugen Tsukuyomi. The same control he had over individuals would now be applied on a massive global scale.
These are MS techniques and it seems Tobi can execute them without an MS. This is not impossible. In fact, where have we seen such a thing before? Yep, we saw it from Itachi. Before he died he was dribbling Oro with Susano’o and neither of his eyes was even in the base Sharingan state!
That Elder son Mangekyou spiral also seems to reflect in the form with which he executes his S/T jutsu and even in his mask. Now that he feels he has ascended or at least is on the way to his goal his mask now reflects a Sharingan pattern similar to that of the Juubi’s eye. Tobi just loves telling his stories.
His Plan/Motives
Let’s again look back at the story behind the So6P’s sons and notice something about them before war broke out between them.
You see that. They BOTH shared their father’s vision and wanted peace. Their ideas behind how it could be achieved were just tremendously different. The elder son thought it could be achieved through might. In this context peace meant having the bigger stick and governing with power. It’s the type of peace that doesn’t rely on people’s will but subjugates it and brings it about that way.
That’s exactly what Tobi wants!
Mugen Tsukuyomi will bring about peace by force. To him there is just no other way. He will simply cleanse the world, if not of war directly then of the wills of individuals that bring about war. That’s the plan. It’s possibly personal as well in that his success will validate his philosophy. There’s no way there isn’t a little chip on his shoulder after not being chosen as the Sage’s successor. No point in thinking about the why, he’s insane. Insanity can coexist with coherence.
In terms of his state and the processes he goes through to achieve his goals one thing can be seen. He’s no longer what he used to be and what he wants to be is beyond what he used to be. Listen to him here and understand what he means.
I want to be complete. Not I want to be complete again. What could that mean? Well let’s take a look at that same chapter. It’s explained that the Sage divided aspects his power between his sons. Tobi could see this as each son being an incomplete version of his father, which is true. He’s made it known that he intends to be a So6P and is actually calling himself the second one at the moment. He:
Those are parallel goals that imply he’s at least a little ways there. Now to truly finish it so he can mimic daddy he’s going to become the ultimate jinchuuriki of the juubi.
Miscellaneous stuff
This miscellaneous but relevant stuff:
I can't remember what else I wanted to say so that’s it. This is why I believe Tobi to be the elder son. He doesn’t need to be someone we know. He doesn’t need to be someone that can stir an emotional reaction in any of the current characters. All he needs to be is somebody that can unite people in order to face a powerful foe and that’s exactly what he is. He is likely the final villain for this very reason.
EDIT: To add more miscellaneous stuff that I had forgotten to cover. Came up thanks to good debate.
To start off a good statement by someone on another forum regarding my theory. I don't necessarily agree with the first statement but after that I think it's very good and pay close attention to the bolded.
He used Madara's identity because Madara was a powerful, relevant name in this current era and that's what could use to get things done. The elder son, even if he came without a mask couldn't do much in terms of moving people, especially those members of Akatsuki. Not without a valid display of power which he admits to no longer having much of. Despite this he had knowledge of generations and he needed resources or others with power to help him achieve his goals which is why he's such a big recruiter. In order to recruit one cannot simply approach such powerful individuals with no identity or strong ideals. However if he presented himself as somebody admirable and powerful then things become easier. There is reason I believe the chapter was called "The Power in a Name".
What I've just described is the power a relevant name can have and quite possibly the real importance behind the chapter name.
I will support with panels later but I feel the people quoted here are all knowledgeable and will remember what I'm talking about.
After Nagato's betrayal he states he didn't know he would use Gedou Rinne Tensei like he did and suggests that he was betrayed. Now this indicates that he had been prepping him for something. We can now fairly assume that it was Madara's true resurrection. He actually admits to trusting Nagato. Now can you think of why he would allow or trust someone else to execute such a delicate and important task. This is something you or I would definitely do by ourselves in such a situation right?
The fact is he could not do it himself. The guys has admitted to being a shell of his former self.
He couldn't execute Rinnei Tensei
He couldn't hunt the separated Bijuu
He couldn't take on Konoha alone
All things he may have been able to do in his prime hence giving Nagato and taking back those eyes which were probably bred in the living Madara.
Oh man. I never thought I’d actually join in this Tobi shit but here goes. Didn't take too much thought, it just made sense and that's why I believe it for the moment.
Now, where to start. Okay straight to the point. I say he’s the Rikudou Sage’s Elder son. Of course this is not the first time you’ve heard this and just like anyone else’s theory this is something I genuinely believe and I’ll provide adequate reasoning to supplement the statement without just saying it and would love to engage in cool discussion. Here goes.
There are certain things that I can attribute to him being the son:
• Tobi’s knowledge and potential age
• His techniques
• His motives and his current state
• Potential parallels in his storytelling
• His wish to be "complete"
The Elder son’s eyes
Before starting let’s just look back a bit and perhaps agree on one thing. I haven’t read Elder son threads so I’m not exactly sure what people have generally agreed upon as far as the Elder son’s eyes go but it’s already obvious that this is without doubt Mangekyou Sharingan, the very first. What we definitely know is that it isn’t a Rinnegan.
Here we see a Sage of six Paths with a real Rinnegan.
You must be registered for see images
Here we the see the elder son with an eye technique that is certainly not a Rinnegan.
You must be registered for see images
This spiral doujutsu is something I believe to be the Elder son’s unique doujutsu, Mangekyou sharingan. Okay then, back to Tobi.
Tobi’s knowledge and age
Alright this dude knows just about if not everything about the Uchiha. He also seems to be known by Madara who is old as dirt. When he’s not being silly he’s insightful and shares knowledge about the Uchiha history and genetics. The reasons this guy sold his “Madara” story to readers so well is because he speaks as if he has witnessed such events. I believe his stories parallel events that perhaps occurred earlier. This guy loves to play out and watch these battles between the “sons” like Hashirama vs Madara and has directly told Naruto that he’s going to drive him towards a battle with Sasuke.
What he wants from re-enacting these battles I cannot truly say. Because he trained Itachi and most likely guided him towards the clans most powerful secrets, I can only speculate that he may have had a hand in the Madara’s development as well, perhaps for the sole reason of breeding the Rinnegan at some point. Madara didn't just awaken the MS, he was guided. Why he couldn’t do this himself is perhaps due to his present condition. He is in shambles compared to his prime self by his own admission as stated here
You must be registered for see images
This is probably why he is a proxy fighter, never taking any serious action himself until he was ready to begin his final moves. He always gets someone else to stand in his place. This may be why he gave Nagato Madara’s Rinnegan which he in turn considers his eyes because he is the reason Madara unlocked it in the first place. We know he’s being held together with Zetsu’s (who is a topic for another time altogether) parts and he looks old. There are a number of reasons he may be alive. Possibly due to vitality acquired due to his own brother and or a refill from Hashirama later via Zetsu or through his S/T jutsu. Immortality ain't a big thing for certain characters in this mang.
His techniques
He has the most powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu abilities we have witnessed in the manga so far and he executes them with absolute ease. The techniques appear to in all honesty originate from his eye and due to the fact that he doesn’t use any seals can be fairly assumed to be techniques based on his Sharingan. We cannot really deny that.
Now then let’s look at it. I’ll just say it, these advanced techniques that come from his eyes appear to be MS techniques. Yes, despite the fact that he doesn’t have or at least show a Mangekyou pattern, they certainly originate from his eyes and are not part of the base Sharingan menu. We now know that there are other techniques aside from the Big Three....or four...five that can be executed by the Uchiha. These techniques however all require the Mangekyou to actually even be able to do. The prime example is Kakashi’s Kamui.
Now Tobi has shown:
- Extremely powerful S/T that had a kage who specialized in S/T jutsu and even Kakashi acknowledge that there has been nobody better.
- Genjutsu so powerful that it that controlled a Kage jinchuuriki for years on end, made a highly trained shinobi like Konan reveal information she’d rather have died with and other examples.
There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that these originate from his eye. They aren’t normal ninjutsu as they require no seals and he does them at will. They are also far too powerful to come from the normal Sharingan and so I consider them MS techniques regardless of Tobi’s appearance while using them. I’d even go so far as to say that his Genjutsu is actually Tsukuyomi. We can see that certain MS techniques differ between individuals all the way from Amaterasu to Susano’o. His Tsukuyomi probably differs in the same way. His Genjutsu techs so far have been based around total mind control. While Itachi creates an isolated world in which he is a god leaving the individual stuck in his mind, Tobi’s seems to be more similar to Shisui’s techniques in having dominance over another’s free will without their knowledge. We are also further aware that he does indeed possess this kind of ability by the very fact that he has already stated he intends to initiate Mugen Tsukuyomi. The same control he had over individuals would now be applied on a massive global scale.
These are MS techniques and it seems Tobi can execute them without an MS. This is not impossible. In fact, where have we seen such a thing before? Yep, we saw it from Itachi. Before he died he was dribbling Oro with Susano’o and neither of his eyes was even in the base Sharingan state!
You must be registered for see images
That Elder son Mangekyou spiral also seems to reflect in the form with which he executes his S/T jutsu and even in his mask. Now that he feels he has ascended or at least is on the way to his goal his mask now reflects a Sharingan pattern similar to that of the Juubi’s eye. Tobi just loves telling his stories.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
His Plan/Motives
Let’s again look back at the story behind the So6P’s sons and notice something about them before war broke out between them.
You must be registered for see images
You see that. They BOTH shared their father’s vision and wanted peace. Their ideas behind how it could be achieved were just tremendously different. The elder son thought it could be achieved through might. In this context peace meant having the bigger stick and governing with power. It’s the type of peace that doesn’t rely on people’s will but subjugates it and brings it about that way.
That’s exactly what Tobi wants!
You must be registered for see images
Mugen Tsukuyomi will bring about peace by force. To him there is just no other way. He will simply cleanse the world, if not of war directly then of the wills of individuals that bring about war. That’s the plan. It’s possibly personal as well in that his success will validate his philosophy. There’s no way there isn’t a little chip on his shoulder after not being chosen as the Sage’s successor. No point in thinking about the why, he’s insane. Insanity can coexist with coherence.
In terms of his state and the processes he goes through to achieve his goals one thing can be seen. He’s no longer what he used to be and what he wants to be is beyond what he used to be. Listen to him here and understand what he means.
You must be registered for see images
I want to be complete. Not I want to be complete again. What could that mean? Well let’s take a look at that same chapter. It’s explained that the Sage divided aspects his power between his sons. Tobi could see this as each son being an incomplete version of his father, which is true. He’s made it known that he intends to be a So6P and is actually calling himself the second one at the moment. He:
- Wants to be complete
- Wants to be So6P
Those are parallel goals that imply he’s at least a little ways there. Now to truly finish it so he can mimic daddy he’s going to become the ultimate jinchuuriki of the juubi.
Miscellaneous stuff
This miscellaneous but relevant stuff:
- Tobi mentions Sasuke's Susano'o is quit rare and he's keeping it for his stockpile. The way he spoke of Susano'o's rarity indicates that he's been around long enough to judge it's frequency. Uchiha of a particular generation would deem it unique but someone who's seen such things before would consider it rare.
You must be registered for see images
- People underestimate the significance in Tobi possessing the fan. Most would simply attribute it to his imitation of Madara who used to wield such a fan in a different colour. What we need to understand is that the fan is NOT just Uchiha Madara's weapon, it is the symbol of the Uchiha and who better to wield it in each generation but the leader of the clan? Madara was once that man and as such he wielded the clans symbol with pride. Now that Tobi is no longer in the shadows he is wielding the fan and Madara isn't. Kishi knows what he's doing here. The elder son has returned to his post as the Prime Uchiha.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
- Now we know that Madara didn't help Itachi murder the clan but Tobi did. I doubt he was mad at the weakness of the clan as he claimed. He had been waiting for years but the clan massacre provided him with the perfect timing and excuse to harvest the Uchiha clan. That stockpile of eyes didn't come from nowhere. Tobi has been using his descendants for years.
- What exactly happened to his original eyes then? Possibly Izanagi or they gradually lost their light. Either way, he can make such sacrifices at the moment because he has so many eyes just waiting in reserve.
I can't remember what else I wanted to say so that’s it. This is why I believe Tobi to be the elder son. He doesn’t need to be someone we know. He doesn’t need to be someone that can stir an emotional reaction in any of the current characters. All he needs to be is somebody that can unite people in order to face a powerful foe and that’s exactly what he is. He is likely the final villain for this very reason.
EDIT: To add more miscellaneous stuff that I had forgotten to cover. Came up thanks to good debate.
To start off a good statement by someone on another forum regarding my theory. I don't necessarily agree with the first statement but after that I think it's very good and pay close attention to the bolded.
A response to another good question which I forgot to originally address.
Understandable. But it's the truth. He is a nobody. At least in this era. He is nothing but a relic from the past forgotten over the generations. If even the Sage of Six Paths existence can be forgotten (or hidden) and chalked up to nothing but myth by the bulk of society then what more of his sons? Hell he is called the sage, a descriptive name not a true one, and they are called sons. Nobody even knows their specific names in the same way the bijuu names were forgotten.
He used Madara's identity because Madara was a powerful, relevant name in this current era and that's what could use to get things done. The elder son, even if he came without a mask couldn't do much in terms of moving people, especially those members of Akatsuki. Not without a valid display of power which he admits to no longer having much of. Despite this he had knowledge of generations and he needed resources or others with power to help him achieve his goals which is why he's such a big recruiter. In order to recruit one cannot simply approach such powerful individuals with no identity or strong ideals. However if he presented himself as somebody admirable and powerful then things become easier. There is reason I believe the chapter was called "The Power in a Name".
What I've just described is the power a relevant name can have and quite possibly the real importance behind the chapter name.
He also claims to given Nagato the Rinnegan in order to fulfill a certain duty.
I will support with panels later but I feel the people quoted here are all knowledgeable and will remember what I'm talking about.
After Nagato's betrayal he states he didn't know he would use Gedou Rinne Tensei like he did and suggests that he was betrayed. Now this indicates that he had been prepping him for something. We can now fairly assume that it was Madara's true resurrection. He actually admits to trusting Nagato. Now can you think of why he would allow or trust someone else to execute such a delicate and important task. This is something you or I would definitely do by ourselves in such a situation right?
The fact is he could not do it himself. The guys has admitted to being a shell of his former self.
He couldn't execute Rinnei Tensei
He couldn't hunt the separated Bijuu
He couldn't take on Konoha alone
All things he may have been able to do in his prime hence giving Nagato and taking back those eyes which were probably bred in the living Madara.
Last edited:
sasukexx13
Banned
Prince Charles
Active member
true enigma
Active member
Re: Tobi: The Original Uchiha
I still don't think he's the older son. Your argument is the best I've seen for this, thus far, though. Good job.
The big thing for me is that it has been generations since Madara and Hashirama were alive (Tsunade is the senior citizen grand daughter of the First Hokage), and it had already been generations since the sons should have died by the time that Konoha was founded. I know that you said that immortality isn't that big of an issue in the manga, but even the "immortal" characters (Orochimaru, Sasori, the Zombie Combo, etc.) died pretty young for being able to live forever.
I still don't think he's the older son. Your argument is the best I've seen for this, thus far, though. Good job.
The big thing for me is that it has been generations since Madara and Hashirama were alive (Tsunade is the senior citizen grand daughter of the First Hokage), and it had already been generations since the sons should have died by the time that Konoha was founded. I know that you said that immortality isn't that big of an issue in the manga, but even the "immortal" characters (Orochimaru, Sasori, the Zombie Combo, etc.) died pretty young for being able to live forever.
MorphyRulez
Active member
Yokima Yagame
Active member
Re: Tobi: The Original Uchiha
Nice job mate ,it could be that you read Kishimoto's mind
Rep+ i've got big hopes for this theory
Nice job mate ,it could be that you read Kishimoto's mind
Rep+ i've got big hopes for this theory
Rike Senju
Active member
Shin Zangetsu
Member
Re: Tobi: The Original Uchiha
Thanks for the positive comments everyone.
I know right!!! Even when I wrote it I was thinking I've hated on so many Tobi threads because of the sheer number and lack of depth in most of them and make it a point to avoid it when possible. Still not sure whether I would have read this shit had I not written it. xd
Thanks for the positive comments everyone.
EonForce42
Active member
Re: Tobi: The Original Uchiha
The only thing wrong with this is the Older brother wasn't the first Uchiha. He was just an ancestor. Other then that bravo!
The only thing wrong with this is the Older brother wasn't the first Uchiha. He was just an ancestor. Other then that bravo!
EonForce42
Active member
Re: Tobi: The Original Uchiha
This is basically my theory word for word, but since I really don't care for Tobi theories or for writing extremely long paragraphs and looking for scans I just left it alone and eventually this popped up and I was like "Did I write this?" lol.I know right!!! Even when I wrote it I was thinking I've hated on so many Tobi threads because of the sheer number and lack of depth in most of them and make it a point to avoid it when possible. Still not sure whether I would have read this shit had I not written it. xd
Thanks for the positive comments everyone.
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