Sage Mode and Mangekyou Sharingan are Equal

silmarill

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I think sm definatly isnt inferior to ms
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This was after the Pain fight , I know it says probably but for me it was a hint that naruto was slightly stronger there.
Sasuke already had MS sharingan there , we didnt saw him using his susannoo arrows tho.
 

Vasto Lordé

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Are they really equal??? so basically a guy with a sage mode can break Susano and evade Amaterasu.... Lol I disagree 100000%.
 

Ryuu..

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people cant simply disagree with that statement as the Senji=Uchiha and their known for having the body of the So6p, while Uchiha had his eyes. Therefore, it basically is SM=MS

Totally agree.
 

karol the don

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Well my opinion is Ms is better than sage mode cuz,during of using sage mode u get only more strength,and Ms got lot of powerfull spells like susanno Amaterazu super tzukoyumi and are better too use against opponents like the sage mode
 

MaNnY17

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1. Naruto & Sasuke:

Naruto and Sasuke were stated as equals with their respective Sage and MS powerups.

But Sasuke is someone who could spam MS arrows and Amaterasu at will, which would mean, Naruto would either have to dodge em, or make a batch of clones, so Sasuke wouldn't know which to hit, but Amaterasu can make sure to destroy a great group of clones, so dodging the arrows was at place, as well as dodging Amaterasu, I really don't think Sage Naruto had any other option for those but use his speed. Just a second arrow could have killed a Kage level like Kakashi.

2. Itachi and Jiraiya were stated as equals.

This statement has brought on alot of controversy, and I honestly don't know why. Does Jiraiya not look as impressive as Itachi?

Jiraiya is someone who defeated Konan, someone who gave Tobi, alot of trouble, in his Base Mode. And at the same time, Kisame admitted he was no match for Jiraiya, while Itachi quickly defeats Deidara, another Akatsuki member, in this aspect, they seem very even to me.

Jiraiya did esentially well againts Pain, to the point he defeated 3 paths, without being touched, whereas 2 paths killed Kakashi. Even if Jiraiya had to rely on Frog song, thats still part of his power, and he had one pain trapped in Yomi Numa, and truthfully, those paths were no match for him. Sage Jiraiya can easily defeat summons, and defeat Preta Path. Personally, I don't think Itachi would have done any better againts Pain. Amaterasu gets absorbed, and Tsukuyomi doesn't work on zombies. Itachi would have to start relying on Susanoo just to stay alive.

Sage Mode pumps nature chakra constantly, which makes genjutsu useless, and Amaterasu, as shown by A, can be dodged by fast speeds, as well as other attacks like arrows/magatamas. A had knowledge on Amaterasu, but Jiraiya with Sage Mode would have Sensing abilities which would allow him to see where Amaterasu would hit, and be able to dodge it from there.

I know that the term "dodge it" seems easy to say, since we can say anyone can simply dodge something, but the fact is, we have seen how Kabuto has dodged both of the Uchiha brothers attacks, thanks to Sage Mode sensing/prediction, so its not really a stretch to say so.

With genjutsu useless, and his attacks (Amaterasu/Magatama/Tostuka) dodged, its only a matter of time before Susanoo takes= its negative effect on Itachi, and if he's lucky, he can maybe hit Jiraiya with an Amaterasu, and thus he dies, while Susanoo strain kills Itachi.

Or, Jiraiya can use a Giant Swuamp amped with Sage chakra that sinks Susanoo, or after dodging and Pa & Ma realizing how dangerous Susanoo is, they decide to use Frog Song to paralyze it.

So IMO Sage Mode = MS

you bring up alot of good points man....i think itachi would still win but with alot of trouble j-man aint no pushover he has alot of good jutsu and his speed it pretty good with sage mode....nice thread with good facts not just pulling stuff out of your ass....+rep :scorps:
 

nreningen

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please don't think deep
it is clear that naruto and jirariya can beat sharingen brothers
 

F1N1X

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1. Naruto & Sasuke:

Naruto and Sasuke were stated as equals with their respective Sage and MS powerups.

But Sasuke is someone who could spam MS arrows and Amaterasu at will, which would mean, Naruto would either have to dodge em, or make a batch of clones, so Sasuke wouldn't know which to hit, but Amaterasu can make sure to destroy a great group of clones, so dodging the arrows was at place, as well as dodging Amaterasu, I really don't think Sage Naruto had any other option for those but use his speed. Just a second arrow could have killed a Kage level like Kakashi.

2. Itachi and Jiraiya were stated as equals.

This statement has brought on alot of controversy, and I honestly don't know why. Does Jiraiya not look as impressive as Itachi?

Jiraiya is someone who defeated Konan, someone who gave Tobi, alot of trouble, in his Base Mode. And at the same time, Kisame admitted he was no match for Jiraiya, while Itachi quickly defeats Deidara, another Akatsuki member, in this aspect, they seem very even to me.

Jiraiya did esentially well againts Pain, to the point he defeated 3 paths, without being touched, whereas 2 paths killed Kakashi. Even if Jiraiya had to rely on Frog song, thats still part of his power, and he had one pain trapped in Yomi Numa, and truthfully, those paths were no match for him. Sage Jiraiya can easily defeat summons, and defeat Preta Path. Personally, I don't think Itachi would have done any better againts Pain. Amaterasu gets absorbed, and Tsukuyomi doesn't work on zombies. Itachi would have to start relying on Susanoo just to stay alive.

Sage Mode pumps nature chakra constantly, which makes genjutsu useless, and Amaterasu, as shown by A, can be dodged by fast speeds, as well as other attacks like arrows/magatamas. A had knowledge on Amaterasu, but Jiraiya with Sage Mode would have Sensing abilities which would allow him to see where Amaterasu would hit, and be able to dodge it from there.

I know that the term "dodge it" seems easy to say, since we can say anyone can simply dodge something, but the fact is, we have seen how Kabuto has dodged both of the Uchiha brothers attacks, thanks to Sage Mode sensing/prediction, so its not really a stretch to say so.

With genjutsu useless, and his attacks (Amaterasu/Magatama/Tostuka) dodged, its only a matter of time before Susanoo takes its negative effect on Itachi, and if he's lucky, he can maybe hit Jiraiya with an Amaterasu, and thus he dies, while Susanoo strain kills Itachi.

Or, Jiraiya can use a Giant Swuamp amped with Sage chakra that sinks Susanoo, or after dodging and Pa & Ma realizing how dangerous Susanoo is, they decide to use Frog Song to paralyze it.

So IMO Sage Mode = MS

WTH they are a lot of things wrong with your thread
but i like your idea
but Sage Mode was never Equal to MS because they are 2 different things :sy:
SAGE=3 Energy
MS=2 energy

Am too tried to get into details as to why 1 of them is greater than the other in different ways
But OVERALL SAGE mode is better:scorps:
 
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I think sm definatly isnt inferior to ms
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This was after the Pain fight , I know it says probably but for me it was a hint that naruto was slightly stronger there.
Sasuke already had MS sharingan there , we didnt saw him using his susannoo arrows tho.

Naruto defeated pain all alone?! If it isn't because of hinata, kyuubi and minato then naruto should be dead by now. Not to mention the frogs xd
 

Ultimatevirus

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j man is beast but itachi wins ... first of all itachi will never allow him to use his pprecious 5 minute and go to sage mode... and even if he does.. then itachi can control the summons and again jiraiya gets defeated
 

cmilius

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I don't know what you guys been reading and if you guys can't understand pure english but the manga never lied, it was stated that after naruto fought the six path and destroyed them zetsu said that naruto was stronger than sasuke with mangyekyo sharingan and tobi agreed and sage mode user is more dangerous than a ms because naruto with just by coming close to you he can kill you with a punch which a ms user like sasuke has to get into susano and stangle the opponent if he can do thet to people who is speed like kakashi, raikage,guy, lee, naruto, and gaara with his sand body flicker technic. can sasuke win against the 6 path of pain with his ms no why because he doesn't have the kind of chakra an uzumaki have and durability that naruto have.
sage mode is stronger than ms people like sasuke and when zetsu said that sasuke was even jealous because he never thought narutocould have beaten pein.
I'll put it in order for you uys who might have problem with reading and understanding no offence.
1 tail tails naruto= sasuke three tomoe sharingan + cm level 2.
ms is a bit weaker than sage mode due to speed, prediction of movement, chakra, and strength.
ems=km naruto.
bm naruto? maybe sasuke plus a curse mark stronger than before.
bijuu sage mode or the bijuus chakra that naruto receive from all the tail beats except gaara's will make it interesting to see naruto fight madara uchiha.
Since itachi is my favorite i'll only say that he is equal to j-man.
 

F1N1X

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AGAIN where have itachi ever controlled summons
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So because madara & Tobi can control the tails means that Itachi & Sasuke can do it right :|
 
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-Broly-

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AGAIN where have itachi ever controlled summons
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So because madara & Tobi can control the tails means that Itachi & Sasuke can do it right :|
are you retarded? part of the ms and sharingans ability is controlling summons lol go read the manga
 

-Broly-

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Sorry your argument for jiraya = itachi is really really really weak

Itachi murderstomps jiraya

everything in red is a link to a manga page for evidence

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Actions speak louder than words: you don't turn your back on someone that to use your exhausting trump-card genjutsu, , on a broken genin (although that is something that someone that stomped Jiriaya's genius-rival might do...) We know Itachi has to Kisame about the hype he gave Jiraiya that his previous statement, and Kisame even himself. So between ridiculously false hype and databook stat totals, which are a staple argument of Jiriaya fans because Itachi has the most maximum scores of any ninja, whereas Jiraiya has very few maximum scores.Now we can move on to... Feats-stuff.

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First, if Jiraiya summon an army on top of Ma and Pa, Itachi can dodge a toad army all day who . Secondly, Itachi has to manipulate multiple targets, or he control summons with the Sharingan power that Minato needed a placed on the controller to counter. Sasuke directly stated that , but that it was stronger than his own at the time, being able to control the Nine Tails. It is the same ability, according to the databook, and common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control:



As for the hyped Food Cart Destroyer or Yomi Numa for that matter, please note: Jiriaya said that his senbon technique was his i.e. his hardest jutsu to evade. The databook text of Food Cart Destroyer does say "right above". However, it means right above as "in a straight line above". The Japanese word is 真上 (ma-ue). There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive. This is why it has only ever been used on giant creatures, and not tiny ninja, because the ninja have a great deal more time to react. Moreover, the Sharingan determines the of a technique, and would see it coming. Moreover, Jiriaya, like Killer Bee, is an , and if by some miracle he achieves Hermit Mode, Itachi is able to to kill Jiraiya since their willpower is almost certainly less than the Nine Tailed Fox. But lets say Jiraiya starts in Hermit Mode, and that Itachi can't control Fukasaku to remove Jiriaya's head.

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Jiriaya's detection barrier is a banner for pro-Jiriaya arguers, but they frequently ignore that Jiraiya himself said that and without knowing he has to do what everyone has had to do. Either not look at Itachi at all, or look at Itachi's eyes ( .) Having inferior intellect and knowledge of genjutsu to Orochimaru will come in handy here. But if Ma and Pa, who aren't being controlled for plot reasons, break him out, realize that it still took time for to break weaker genjutsu, and even However, Jiriaya might as well instantly reflect all of Itachi's genjutsu back on to Itachi for all the good it will do him against the rest of Itachi's arsenal.

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There are some key things everybody ignores about this feat. The Raikage spent time for a shunshin that Karin and C noticed. Secondly, the Raikage was tipped off by . Neither of these are likely for Jiraiya who will probably be . As a tertiary point, it's highly unlikely that Jiraiya can even match A's ushrouded reflexes. And as a quaternary point, Itachi's Amaterasu burns than Sasuke's thus far, and was activated while running at full speed towards a wall five feet away. And then, his ultimate jutsu:

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It's a common mistake to assume Susano'o is a primarily defensive jutsu. It's not. The databook first and foremost hypes the that presumably surpasses his other two techniques. It caught Orochimaru in between words, right in front of him, without him even noticing, when other speed demons get off. Kakashi and Danzō had to use instant jutsu to deflect Susano'o attacks because they were so fast, and Sasuke only recently attained of Susano'o, which the author decided was a power-up to save for later. If Jiraiya is in the vicinity when it's activated, or if he thinks he break through it, then he's dead. It's also the best defensive jutsu in the manga, changing nature and shape to allegedly counter any jutsu.

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Jiriaya does not behave like a genius. He will most likely not make an immediate tactical retreat for Hermit Mode, as Gamaken was simply , and Jiriaya is the guy who hopped on to fight him. He will most likely not make a combat team of Kage Bunshin when it would have instead of using one as a momentary distraction. On the other hand, Itachi most likely will use genjutsu, and his Mangekyō Sharingan techniques, which Jiraiya can't answer to. Jiraiya needs to be smarter than Itachi to have a chance of winning... but he's not.​
if one of you jiraya fanboys can counter all of this i will concede that itachi is inferior to jiraya
btw for those that say "itachi said the best he could do against jiraiya is a tie" it was evealed in the last manga that everything itachi said before his death was a lie
 
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I personally think MS is better than sage mode as far as combat is concerned.

Susano is an incredible offensive and defensive tech, at all ranges. Tsukyomi is the best usable Genjutsu, and Amaterasu is obviously insane (ive never understood why it hasnt been used at close range during taijutsu, its one thing Guy being able to not look at someone whilst fighting, but there would be no dodging someone looking at you that close up. Tbh i dont understand how anybody has been able to dodge it, i mean all the user needs to do is focus theyre eye on the target for an instant and it will burst into flames and basically never stop burning..... the fastest characters dont move at blinding speeds constantly. but hey whatever, ill accept it...

You could say SM and MS offer similar sensing abilities, but SM has the edge Id say as its supposed to be based on the environment and not just sight. Saying that i suppose SM should make the user more vulenerable to Genjutsu as the users senses are hightened.... and Dojutsu users should be more vulenerable to Dojutsu... I think it makes sense.

SM grants the ability to break Genjutsu, which cant happen instantly and continuously if you ask me, so it isnt an immunity. Disrupting your chakra flow has to be a bad thing to do, as it stops you using techniques, but stops your senses being manipulated. This is undoubtably a negative as it takes a small amount of time, even a second is enough time for a mistake that could cause you to die.

A good point I think nobody has mentioned, on SM's side, is when Naruto was able to dodge and counter the 4th Raikage's most powerful and fastest attack. Thats pretty impressive.

and as far as Jman vs Itachi is concerned, I have to say that Itachi is the better Ninja.

Itachi completed one of the hardest top secret missions, and is a Konoha hero, whilst setting up and following through with his own personal agendas (although they didnt go exactly to plan) with zero credit. Jman gets so much credit just because Hanzo complimented him and his team. I agree that Jman is a badass, but c'mon, Itachi deserves way more credit for what he tried to do. I am abit of an Itachi fan, but I also really like Jman, i just think the whole "Legendary Sannin" thing is a load of bull.

I think Itachi would have figured out Pains secret quicker than Jman, so he is obviously smarter. Also Genjutsu is said to be based on Itellect, and Jman has little talent for Genjutsu.

Itachi's MS has a disadvantage over other EMS, but he has the Totsuke Blade and Yata Mirror (sorry for spelling???) so it makes up for it.

He has way less Chakra than Jman, especially due to SM, but he is the epitome of efficiantcy and doesnt require huge reserves. Uchiha arent supposed to have much Chakra, its how they use it. (this kind of doesnt make sense as they inherited the SO6P Chakra, but the only Uchiha to have shown huge Chakra is Madara, so it probably is due to his Hashirama DNA)
 

Monkeysageof6paths

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I personally think MS is better than sage mode as far as combat is concerned.

Susano is an incredible offensive and defensive tech, at all ranges. Tsukyomi is the best usable Genjutsu, and Amaterasu is obviously insane (ive never understood why it hasnt been used at close range during taijutsu, its one thing Guy being able to not look at someone whilst fighting, but there would be no dodging someone looking at you that close up. Tbh i dont understand how anybody has been able to dodge it, i mean all the user needs to do is focus theyre eye on the target for an instant and it will burst into flames and basically never stop burning..... the fastest characters dont move at blinding speeds constantly. but hey whatever, ill accept it...

You could say SM and MS offer similar sensing abilities, but SM has the edge Id say as its supposed to be based on the environment and not just sight. Saying that i suppose SM should make the user more vulenerable to Genjutsu as the users senses are hightened.... and Dojutsu users should be more vulenerable to Dojutsu... I think it makes sense.

SM grants the ability to break Genjutsu, which cant happen instantly and continuously if you ask me, so it isnt an immunity. Disrupting your chakra flow has to be a bad thing to do, as it stops you using techniques, but stops your senses being manipulated. This is undoubtably a negative as it takes a small amount of time, even a second is enough time for a mistake that could cause you to die.

A good point I think nobody has mentioned, on SM's side, is when Naruto was able to dodge and counter the 4th Raikage's most powerful and fastest attack. Thats pretty impressive.

and as far as Jman vs Itachi is concerned, I have to say that Itachi is the better Ninja.

Itachi completed one of the hardest top secret missions, and is a Konoha hero, whilst setting up and following through with his own personal agendas (although they didnt go exactly to plan) with zero credit. Jman gets so much credit just because Hanzo complimented him and his team. I agree that Jman is a badass, but c'mon, Itachi deserves way more credit for what he tried to do. I am abit of an Itachi fan, but I also really like Jman, i just think the whole "Legendary Sannin" thing is a load of bull.

I think Itachi would have figured out Pains secret quicker than Jman, so he is obviously smarter. Also Genjutsu is said to be based on Itellect, and Jman has little talent for Genjutsu.

Itachi's MS has a disadvantage over other EMS, but he has the Totsuke Blade and Yata Mirror (sorry for spelling???) so it makes up for it.

He has way less Chakra than Jman, especially due to SM, but he is the epitome of efficiantcy and doesnt require huge reserves. Uchiha arent supposed to have much Chakra, its how they use it. (this kind of doesnt make sense as they inherited the SO6P Chakra, but the only Uchiha to have shown huge Chakra is Madara, so it probably is due to his Hashirama DNA)
Very good points , +rep but Naruto fought 3rd raikage not 4th and Uchihas are all supposed to have POWERFUL chakra , it doesn't mean they have no stamina U_U
 

yuan of cruxis

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Actually Orochimaru is a little stronger than Jiraiya
Itachi wins low to mid diificulty
 
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