what does it take for Byakugan to surpass sharingan???????

[lndra]

Hagoromo was the first person to use Izanagi as stated by Obito. I didn't include the Otsutsuki clan.

Can you show me a scan of Obito saying Hagoromo used Izanagi? I don't remember that.

Hagromo is apart of the Otsutsuki stuff.

The inclusion of mythology justified why Izanami was always going to be added as a counterpart to Izanagi. Furthermore, the Sharingan does have usage restrictions and elemental restrictions, the latter example being that it cannot copy Kekkai-Genkai.

No it didn't lol. There are unused mythology in the series, even for the Byakugan, or even the Uzumaki Clan -- But that doesn't necessarily mean they NEED to be utilized.

On that note, Sharingan powers hardly have restrictions, is what I should have stated. Even then, we're both kinda wrong initially. In the Anime Sarada copied a technique from Buntan, which is an ability that only the Kiba swords can do. For example, it would like Sasuke copying Samehada's transformation ability, despite not physically having the sword.

I'm not necessarily comparing it to a KKG, even though I don't know how the swords are labeled.

But there is a fine line too. The lack of KKG in comparison to non KKG users isn't much of a restriction. Kakashi was able to copy a thousand techniques in his time.

All without effort. Dojutsu in general seem to be broken, but the one's with the most exposition have this flaw.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

How many alts do people need? Holy shit.


> it's not asspull because "consequences", yet ignoring tje fact Kishimoto made it on the spot to TnJ Kabuto w/o TnJ.

Izanami was straight up ass pull, otherwise Itachi could have used it on Sasuke, instead of prepping Kotoamatsukami. But it wasn't a thing at that point in time. It was litetally setuo exactly the way Itachi needed to save Kabuto, for that very instance. And never used again.

I'm willing to be a lot less harsh on Izanagi, but that does not necessarily mean that it isn't as retarded as the former.

Almost ALL of the abilities used by the Sharingan have no consistent basis.

> Sasuke used Genjutsu with his Sharingan, only after the timeskip

- Sarada can use it easy (mind you this isn't about tomoes either)

> Obito can jump 2 tomoes of development and unlock MS in a few short hours

- Sasuke went through much worse and only unlocked a 1 tomoe Sharingan :lol

No consistency

> Sharingan literally gets new powers every other Arc

It can copy movements
It can copy jutsu
It can cast genjutsu
It can counter Genjutsu

^Basis

MS Sharingan usually have unique powers, this is okay to an extent.

Did I tell you that deapite having unique powers, you get a chakra avatar? Because that was known... until it became convenient.

> Did anyone mention Izanagi/Izanami until the very last moment until they were required for the plot, despite years of Sharinga exploration?

> Obito not being able to use Kamui while via Juubi Jinchuriki, but Madara can.

> Madara being able to produce Susano'o without any freaking eyes

I mean the shit is either not consistent, gets a new asspull power like recently when Sarada said she can see weaknesses via Sharingan now, or the logic changes per person..

Susanoo is a seperate chakra entity residing in the user. It only needs a MS to awaken it, not use it. Dont mistake ignorance of manga and asspull.

Spoiler

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It say Susanoo lives inside the user after awakening it. Its the users guardian deity. It is like Biju, made of chakra but has a soul as stated in the book.
Where is the asspull here?

 

[lndra]

Susanoo is a seperate chakra entity residing in the user. It only needs a MS to awaken it, not use it. Dont mistake ignorance of manga and asspull.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It say Susanoo lives inside the user after awakening it. Its the users guardian deity. It is like Biju, made of chakra but has a soul as stated in the book.
Where is the asspull here?

I stated: "Did I tell you that deapite having unique powers, you get a chakra avatar? Because that was known... until it became convenient."

I'm not sure if you're capable of basic reading comprehension or not, but I stated that the Susano'o wasn't even hinted at being a thing, until it became convenient to the story. This isn't necessarily poking at the origin of the ability - Due to the asspull being the thing itself. Not to mention how right after showcasing it, Itachi "conventionally" had spirit weapons that could save Sasuke, and seal Orochimaru's form. Go figure.

Now if you can produce some exposition in the Manga, once your Main replies to my original post, that the Susano'o was at least foreshadowed , before it ass-pulled its way into the plot.

Then we can have a real nice discussion going!

 

[salamander uchiha]

How many alts do people need? Holy shit.

Wtf?

> it's not asspull because "consequences", yet ignoring tje fact Kishimoto made it on the spot to TnJ Kabuto w/o TnJ.

Do you have a quote from kishi saying me made it up on the spot? It feels like that but it's not fact.

Izanami was straight up ass pull, otherwise Itachi could have used it on Sasuke, instead of prepping Kotoamatsukami. But it wasn't a thing at that point in time. It was litetally setuo exactly the way Itachi needed to save Kabuto, for that very instance. And never used again.

Your missing the bigger picture of Izanami at that time there were too many other factors in play. Itachi knew or wanted Sasuke to take his eyes that's why he even told him about the EMS do him using Izanami against him would blind the Mangekyou. And secondly it doesn't work the same as KA especially if Sasuke's resolve is set.

I'm willing to be a lot less harsh on Izanagi, but that does not necessarily mean that it isn't as retarded as the former.

Glad to hear it although it still exuars and Kishi created a story and purpose behind it.

Almost ALL of the abilities used by the Sharingan have no consistent basis.

> Sasuke used Genjutsu with his Sharingan, only after the timeskip

- Sarada can use it easy (mind you this isn't about tomoes either)

> Obito can jump 2 tomoes of development and unlock MS in a few short hours

- Sasuke went through much worse and only unlocked a 1 tomoe Sharingan :lol

No consistency

Lack of consistency doesn't equate to ass pull the powers are as clear as day. Everybody has his own use or conditions that's called variety it makes characters less dull.

> Sharingan literally gets new powers every other Arc

It can copy movements
It can copy jutsu
It can cast genjutsu
It can counter Genjutsu

^Basis

MS Sharingan usually have unique powers, this is okay to an extent.

They're not new power ups Kishi thought of them when he introduced the sharingan if anything he delivered the early OP sharingan. Or some of the abilities where never used. They were thought up by kishi and part of the eye power that's not an ass pull.

Did I tell you that deapite having unique powers, you get a chakra avatar? Because that was known... until it became convenient.

The avatar reprrst the control or physical manifestation of yin to manipulate chakra if anything that and the genjutsu are least questionable aspect of the MS.

> Did anyone mention Izanagi/Izanami until the very last moment until they were required for the plot, despite years of Sharinga exploration?

Kishi's not required to his job isn't to lay out the entire plot or potential future developments just so you can assume they're not ass pulls

> Obito not being able to use Kamui while via Juubi Jinchuriki, but Madara can.

> Madara being able to produce Susano'o without any freaking eyes

Different characters, different levels, different abilities.

I mean the shit is either not consistent, gets a new asspull power like recently when Sarada said she can see weaknesses via Sharingan now, or the logic changes per person..

You do know Sarada's reference was in relational to the analytical abilites of the Sharingan. I'll be honest you can't expect every sharingan user to be a clone of the other they all use or make house of it differently. Otherwise they'd all be clones of one another that's largely the reason for inconsistency as you would call it.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

A few things:

1. Reply to me on your main first, I don't know why your using an alt to talk to me.

Second of all, if you reply with: "I'm not an alt" or "I don't know what you're talking about" -- I'm going to go ahead and ask a moderator to expose your main who is online too.

Your choice.

Okay back to the argument at hand:

---

I stated: "Did I tell you that deapite having unique powers, you get a chakra avatar? Because that was known... until it became convenient."

I'm not sure if you're capable of basic reading comprehension or not, but I stated that the Susano'o wasn't even hinted at being a thing, until it became convenient to the story. This isn't necessarily poking at the origin of the ability - Due to the asspull being the thing itself. Not to mention how right after showcasing it, Itachi "conventionally" had spirit weapons that could save Sasuke, and seal Orochimaru's form. Go figure.

Now if you can produce some exposition in the Manga, once your Main replies to my original post, that the Susano'o was at least foreshadowed , before it ass-pulled its way into the plot.

Then we can have a real nice discussion going!

When was the Lion fist ever foreshadowed? When was Rinnegan ever foreshadowed? MS powers are the most foreshadowed powers in NV. All of them have connection to mythology like Izanagi, izanami are counterpart gods, then Susanoo is the storm god, Amaterasu is the sun princess, Tsukiyomi is the god of time and moon, kagutsuchi is also a god etc etc etc. Its directly linked from Mythology unlike rinnegan and lion fist. In part one it was as if the rotation and chakra emittion was the pinnacle of byakugan jutsus.

You called the Spirit weapons as asspulls when it was convenient, but its a fact that it was foreshadowed by Orochimaru that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru who had control over edo tensei. Orochimaru was called an immortal in databook who foresees past, present, future in databook. So he had a position of god and itachi powerful than him, has even more godly jutsu and the result are the spirit weapons.

Not only Manga foreshadow, in Japanese mythology and even in real life(Its there in japanese antique libraries) there are three sacred treasures of Japan, they are yasakani magatama, Kusanagi blade, Yata mirror.
Orochimaru has the blade and yet he called itachi stronger.
Which means itachi has a blade stronger than his one. Which is the spiritual form of the Kusanagi blade.
Kishimoto took it straight from real life. No asspull like you say, theories could've been made at that time to unveil this link. What really is the asspull are lion gentle fist and tenseigan and jougan. When were they foreshadowed exactly?

 

[lndra]

Do you have a quote from kishi saying me made it up on the spot? It feels like that but it's not fact.

Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't.

our missing the bigger picture of Izanami at that time there were too many other factors in play. Itachi knew or wanted Sasuke to take his eyes that's why he even told him about the EMS do him using Izanami against him would blind the Mangekyou. And secondly it doesn't work the same as KA especially if Sasuke's resolve is set.

Your missing the point that Izanami literally does the same thing Kotoamatsukami would have done to Sasuke, make him see the era of his way to stop him from destroying Konohagakure, all without having to physically control his mind.

Lack of consistency doesn't equate to ass pull the powers are as clear as day. Everybody has his own use or conditions that's called variety it makes characters less dull.

Lack of consistency for a single thing equates to the object being clarified as ass-pull, especially when the consistency is reaching. The same could be said for Boruto's entire generation having abilities that took years to hone originally.

Yet people have no problem with labeling one thing and not the other. /Shrugs

The avatar reprrst the control or physical manifestation of yin to manipulate chakra if anything that and the genjutsu are least questionable aspect of the MS.

Can you show me any hint or physical statement from the Manga that Susano'o was a thing for the MS shaaringan before it showed it conventionally?

Kishi's not required to his job isn't to lay out the entire plot or potential future developments just so you can assume they're not ass pulls

This isn't even an argument.

Secondly, this kind of logic is why the Naruto series is written like crap. The problem is that your interring just because things aren't explained, doesn't mean they are ass-pull, is such a stupid point. It would be like saying, just because the Child of Prophecy ruined Naruto's character, doesn't mean that its an ass pull. Kishimoto just explained destiny wasn't important for Naruto, but then later retconned it with the Otsutsuki plot and Toad Sage.

But that's totally acceptable because "not everyone was SUPPOSED to be laid out day one".

Different characters, different levels, different abilities.

> Two characters from the same Clan
> Both characters using the same eye (Madara stole Kakashi's eye which was Obito's)
> Except the original user couldn't replicate what SOMEONE ELSE did what his own eye.

~ Makes excuses further elaborating my point.

 

[lndra]

When was the Lion fist ever foreshadowed? When was Rinnegan ever foreshadowed? MS powers are the most foreshadowed powers in NV.

...Are you slow?

The entire topic is about things being established, and not being consistent, plus having additions in their abilities when they were previously explored already. Additions themselves aren't bad, but it's comparable to having A being capable of doing three things.

Then "A" can do 6 things now, all of the sudden.

Later "A" can now do 9 things now, all without having much foreshadowing.


Other points that necessarily are expanded such as: Hinata's abilities, when we never saw what she learned in the time skip. Or the Rinnegan, when they hinted at it before the finale. Aren't comparable.

You called the Spirit weapons as asspulls when it was convenient, but its a fact that it was foreshadowed by Orochimaru that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru who had control over edo tensei.

Post a scan of Orochimaru or anyone talking about those spirit weapons until they arrived at the plot.

No asspull like you say, theories could've been made at that time to unveil this link. What really is the asspull are lion gentle fist and tenseigan and jougan. When were they foreshadowed exactly?

God look at this guy :lol

> Twin Lion Fist is asspull because ... can you post a manga scan of Hinata stating she didn't learn anything in the Time Skip

> Tenseigan and the Jougan are definite asspulls, because they were never hinted or stated to exist until later moments in time. However, they still are not comparable to how the Sharingan continues to reign supreme over ass-pull city.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't.



Your missing the point that Izanami literally does the same thing Kotoamatsukami would have done to Sasuke, make him see the era of his way to stop him from destroying Konohagakure, all without having to physically control his mind.



Lack of consistency for a single thing equates to the object being clarified as ass-pull, especially when the consistency is reaching. The same could be said for Boruto's entire generation having abilities that took years to hone originally.

Yet people have no problem with labeling one thing and not the other. /Shrugs



Can you show me any hint or physical statement from the Manga that Susano'o was a thing for the MS shaaringan before it showed it conventionally?


This isn't even an argument.

Secondly, this kind of logic is why the Naruto series is written like crap. The problem is that your interring just because things aren't explained, doesn't mean they are ass-pull, is such a stupid point. It would be like saying, just because the Child of Prophecy ruined Naruto's character, doesn't mean that its an ass pull. Kishimoto just explained destiny wasn't important for Naruto, but then later retconned it with the Otsutsuki plot and Toad Sage.

But that's totally acceptable because "not everyone was SUPPOSED to be laid out day one".





> Two characters from the same Clan
> Both characters using the same eye (Madara stole Kakashi's eye which was Obito's)
> Except the original user couldn't replicate what SOMEONE ELSE did what his own eye.

~ Makes excuses further elaborating my point.

Can you name any ability which was foreshadowed before? Maybe some mediocre jutsu but not main jutsu like Rinnegan, Tenseigan, Lion fist, and many others.
Why should the writer say "Susanoo is a power of MS" before it appears and destroy his own plot? By that logic, Kishi can say who will win and get what what power in the end and destroy his storyline completely.

No one will watch Naruto then since the story has already been revealed.

 

[lndra]

Can you name any ability which was foreshadowed before? Maybe some mediocre jutsu but not main jutsu like Rinnegan, Tenseigan, Lion fist, and many others.

Calling Dojutsu "jutsu" rofl.

It's the idea that they bring something new onto an established product, and never elaborated on it being a thing until the very last moment. Now how exactly is the Rinnegan comparable? Does it mean that the Rinnegan didn't come from nowhere? Obviously, was it not established in the original series that the Byakugan (and Sharingan) were one of 3 main Dojutsu's?

Can someone explain to me how Hinata's Twin Lion Fist is an ass pull, despite her training in the time skip, like every other shinobi? Unless your inferring that Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, and so forths "abilities" are ass-pull post-time skip?

Why should the writer say "Susanoo is a power of MS" before it appears and destroy his own plot? By that logic, Kishi can say who will win and get what what power in the end and destroy his storyline completely.

What? Kishimoto could have easily explained what the Mangekyo Sharingan is capable of, in terms of universal abilities, before Itachi had to break it out randomly. There was an entire foreshadowing to the Mangekyo Sharingan itself: Amaterasu from Itachi, Tsukuyomi, and the idea that all 'MS' Sharingans are different: Based on Tobi's MS, and Itachi's performance.

However there was no exposition on Susano'o, despite the established product, until it was revealed at the very end. Despite Itachi being capable of using Susano'o and having Yata Mirror/Totsuka Blade, to which he could of crushed Kakashi, Lee, and Kurenai like flies.

Or even Jiraiya, for example.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't.

Don't need to I didn't see many Uchiha around or spamming a kinjutsu.

Your missing the point that Izanami literally does the same thing Kotoamatsukami would have done to Sasuke, make him see the era of his way to stop him from destroying Konohagakure, all without having to physically control his mind.

No they don't Izanami let's you realise your deceiving yourself. There's never been an I dictator of that being the case with Sasuke. KA changes your mind. Anyeay I listed the several reasons of why it was impractical of Itachi to try and use Izanami.

Lack of consistency for a single thing equates to the object being clarified as ass-pull, especially when the consistency is reaching. The same could be said for Boruto's entire generation having abilities that took years to hone originally.

Yet people have no problem with labeling one thing and not the other. /Shrugs

No it doesn't unless you have proof for it inconsistency = ass pull outside of your opinion, the Boruto gen is a separate issue altogether.

Can you show me any hint or physical statement from the Manga that Susano'o was a thing for the MS shaaringan before it showed it conventionally?

Don't need to nothing is a thing until it happens you off all manga readers should know that. Something becomes a thing after it happens not before so why your asking for something as silly as that. Idk.

This isn't even an argument.

Secondly, this kind of logic is why the Naruto series is written like crap. The problem is that your interring just because things aren't explained, doesn't mean they are ass-pull, is such a stupid point. It would be like saying, just because the Child of Prophecy ruined Naruto's character, doesn't mean that its an ass pull. Kishimoto just explained destiny wasn't important for Naruto, but then later retconned it with the Otsutsuki plot and Toad Sage.

I have no idea how a possible retcon of Naruto's character equates to ass pulls when it is the sharingan we're discussing. All I'm reading is a rant which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

But that's totally acceptable because "not everyone was SUPPOSED to be laid out day one".

stories adapt as they progress for better or for worse.

> Two characters from the same Clan
> Both characters using the same eye (Madara stole Kakashi's eye which was Obito's)
> Except the original user couldn't replicate what SOMEONE ELSE did what his own eye.

Except they're not the same character being from the same clan doesn't make 2 people equal. 1 being the second sage of 6 paths and the other just a knock off. 1 possessing power beyond the other with 1 rinnegan able to solo all the tailed beast and seal them and form them into the Jyubi on moments. Clearly shows there's both an ability and skill(capability level) difference something Kishi has been trying to empathise via his actions.

~ Makes excuses further elaborating my point.

Using your brain isnt an excuse.

It seems your upset that the Sharingan is overly powerful (as am I ) but that's doesn't make it an ass pull. You could put it down to bad writing I guess.

I've got nothing further to add really.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

...Are you slow?

The entire topic is about things being established, and not being consistent, plus having additions in their abilities when they were previously explored already. Additions themselves aren't bad, but it's comparable to having A being capable of doing three things.

Then "A" can do 6 things now, all of the sudden.

Later "A" can now do 9 things now, all without having much foreshadowing.

Love how you cut out my quotes because you were tongue tied because you had no answer to my other replies.
Itachi showed two MS jutsu in part one = Ama + Tsukiyomi. Both are gods. Who must be the third? Susanoo. Because Ama is the sun god, Tsukiyomi is time and moon god, Susanoo is storm god and "storm" represents unruly physical battle unlike Tsukuyomi which is an absolute and Amaterasu a fire which burns selectively(can destroy bijuu but cannot burn steel)

Other points that necessarily are expanded such as: Hinata's abilities, when we never saw what she learned in the time skip. Or the Rinnegan, when they hinted at it before the finale. Aren't comparable.

When was rinnegan hinted in finale?

Post a scan of Orochimaru or anyone talking about those spirit weapons until they arrived at the plot.[

Your logic is like "Post a scan of a human pooping for me to believe". There is something called logic which can be used to connect the dots. Kusanagi is a spirit weapon and orochimaru had it. Stated to be capable of cutting anything. Yet orochimaru claimed itachi was stronger in part one. Orochimaru was called an immortal god like creature implying he had so much to do with mythology and his enemy would've an even more powerful spirit weapon since he already has the kusanagi of mythology(in essence, there is no weapon more powerful than kusanagi in mythology so the same kusamagi lacking in physical form is the key to countering orochimaru). A bit of common sense is necessary or go ahead and show that any hyuga in hyuga history has foreshadowed twin lion fist. Even hiashi was sweating at neji rotation, implying rotation was the best jutsu of hyuga in part one.

God look at this guy :lol

> Twin Lion Fist is asspull because ... can you post a manga scan of Hinata stating she didn't learn anything in the Time Skip

> Tenseigan and the Jougan are definite asspulls, because they were never hinted or stated to exist until later moments in time. However, they still are not comparable to how the Sharingan continues to reign supreme over ass-pull city.

Using negative logic? When you make a claim you're the one to prove it by providing scans, not me. Hinata sure as hell wont say "I didnt learn anything" as that is an unnecessary statement as Naruto himself shouldve said since he never learned much from jiraiya other than some genjutsu defense. Do you've proof that lion fist was foreshadowed or was used by any other hyuga member as proof that elderly experienced hyuga can use it?

 

[lndra]

Don't need to I didn't see many Uchiha around or spamming a kinjutsu.

"Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't."

> I need a yes or no please.

No they don't Izanami let's you realise your deceiving yourself. There's never been an I dictator of that being the case with Sasuke. KA changes your mind. Anyeay I listed the several reasons of why it was impractical of Itachi to try and use Izanami.

Holy shit lol.

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Red bolded - Applies for a way to save Sasuke.

No it doesn't unless you have proof for it inconsistency = ass pull outside of your opinion, the Boruto gen is a separate issue altogether.

:lol my sides

The Sharingan and Boruto's generation act the same way. Boruto's gen can do stuff that Naruto's gen took years to master, nothing explained why until it happened.

Boruto's generation can do things better than Naruto's generation, esp when it took years for them to hone these skills. Nothing explained why until it happened.

"Lack of consistency for a single thing equates to the object being clarified as ass-pull,"

Don't need to nothing is a thing until it happens you off all manga readers should know that. Something becomes a thing after it happens not before so why your asking for something as silly as that. Idk.

Gonna ask this one more time as well. "Can you show me any hint or physical statement from the Manga that Susano'o was a thing for the MS shaaringan before it showed it conventionally?"

I need a yes or no answer please.

I have no idea how a possible retcon equates to ass pulls with the sharingan we're discussing. All I'm reading is a rant which is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I think someone needs to read what differentiates a retcon and an asspull.

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Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.

stories adapt as they progress for better or for worse.

Kind of ironic in this case because "Rovalez monstra" is telling me additions to the stories are ass pulls when they aren't established, like Hinata's Twin Lion Fist, for example.

When her abilities weren't explored, in comparison to the Sharingan.

Except they're not the same character being from the same clan doesn't make 2 people equal. 1 being the second sage of 6 paths and the other just a knock off. 1 possessing power beyond the other with 1 rinnegan able to solo all the tailed beast and seal them and form them into the Jyubi on moments. Clearly shows there's Both an ability and skill(capability level difference).

Do you understand what you just wrote and tried to defend? Imagine Naruto stealing Neji's Byakugan, and using it under a criteria that Neji himself could not utilize. More so if Naruto was actually from the same Clan as him, closing the gap between excuses.

This has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with it being stated Obito could not use his own Eye ability, and Madara could use Obito's. When we know it has been stated time and time again, the original eye user can bring out the full use of their eyes.

Hence: Asspull

 

[lndra]

Itachi showed two MS jutsu in part one = Ama + Tsukiyomi. Both are gods. Who must be the third? Susanoo. Because Ama is the sun god, Tsukiyomi is time and moon god, Susanoo is storm god and "storm" represents unruly physical battle unlike Tsukuyomi which is an absolute and Amaterasu a fire which burns selectively(can destroy bijuu but cannot burn steel)

Mythology isn't an excuse. Can you show me where Kishimoto foreshadowed Susano'o?

When was rinnegan hinted in finale?

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Part 1 finale.

Your logic is like "Post a scan of a human pooping for me to believe".

Are you capable of posting a scan of anyone hinting that the Spirit Weapons existed in the story until Itachi used it, yes or no?

When you make a claim you're the one to prove it by providing scans, not me. Hinata sure as hell wont say "I didnt learn anything" as that is an unnecessary statement as Naruto himself shouldve said since he never learned much from jiraiya other than some genjutsu defense. Do you've proof that lion fist was foreshadowed or was used by any other hyuga member as proof that elderly experienced hyuga can use it?

> When did Hinata state she learned nothing in the time skip

> What the Hell? We actually a statement from Naruto saying Jiraiya taught him. But that would be obvious, since like Sasuke, he had a teacher of the time skip.

In the scenario, we know Hinata was being taught by Neji too.

Spoiler

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Top left.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

Calling Dojutsu "jutsu" rofl.

It's the idea that they bring something new onto an established product, and never elaborated on it being a thing until the very last moment. Now how exactly is the Rinnegan comparable? Does it mean that the Rinnegan didn't come from nowhere? Obviously, was it not established in the original series that the Byakugan (and Sharingan) were one of 3 main Dojutsu's?

Can someone explain to me how Hinata's Twin Lion Fist is an ass pull, despite her training in the time skip, like every other shinobi? Unless your inferring that Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi, and so forths "abilities" are ass-pull post-time skip?

Dojutsu is jutsu otherwise why call it so? Scan of someone saying "The three great dojutsu, sharingan byakugan and _".

Bold@ by your logic it is.

What? Kishimoto could have easily explained what the Mangekyo Sharingan is capable of, in terms of universal abilities, before Itachi had to break it out randomly. There was an entire foreshadowing to the Mangekyo Sharingan itself: Amaterasu from Itachi, Tsukuyomi, and the idea that all 'MS' Sharingans are different: Based on Tobi's MS, and Itachi's performance.

How did you know about itachis MS techniques. Yes when he used it. Did someone say itachi had those techniques beforehand? No.
How did we know about Totsuka yata Susanoo? When he used it. How did we know tsukuyomi? When he used it.
How did we know kamui? When kakashi "asspullishly" used it. Case solved. Only a fool director would explain his plot before the deadline. Kishimoto aint one. He is one hell of a strategist.

However there was no exposition on Susano'o, despite the established product, until it was revealed at the very end. Despite Itachi being capable of using Susano'o and having Yata Mirror/Totsuka Blade, to which he could of crushed Kakashi, Lee, and Kurenai like flies.

Or even Jiraiya, for example.

Implying itachi was having a hard time with Kurenai and asuma? With kakashi? With jiraiya? Who lost to three paths of pain? He wasnt, so Totsuka and yata neednt be revealed there. He was also loyal to Konoha and came only because he wanted to inform Danzo he was alive to protect Sasuke.

 

[lndra]

Dojutsu is jutsu otherwise why call it so? Scan of someone saying "The three great dojutsu, sharingan byakugan and _".
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How did you know about itachis MS techniques. Yes when he used it. Did someone say itachi had those techniques beforehand?

> He used them in all of his fights

How did we know about Totsuka yata Susanoo? When he used it. How did we know tsukuyomi? When he used it.

When they ass pulled themselves out of nowhere despite all of Itachi's fights

How did we know kamui? When kakashi "asspullishly" used it. Case solved. Only a fool director would explain his plot before the deadline. Kishimoto aint one. He is one hell of a strategist.

Because Kakashi never used MS until that point of time?

Learn what an ass pull is.

 

[Rovalez monstra]

Mythology isn't an excuse. Can you show me where Kishimoto foreshadowed Susano'o?

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Part 1 finale.

Ok.

Are you capable of posting a scan of anyone hinting that the Spirit Weapons existed in the story until Itachi used it, yes or no?

Are you capable of posting a scan where he says he didnt? Since thats the silly logic you used to justify hinata so why dont we use logic vs logic shall we?

> When did Hinata state she learned nothing in the time skip

When was it stated lion fist was a traditional hyuga jutsu?

> What the Hell? We actually a statement from Naruto saying Jiraiya taught him. But that would be obvious, since like Sasuke, he had a teacher of the time skip.

Ok, even then from what he shown, nothings improved other than genjutsu defense. Whatever he did in part one, he cloned in part two.

In the scenario, we know Hinata was being taught by Neji too.

Waiting for statement or feat of any hyuga using lion fist. If not, it made up on spot. Juken was the ultimate ability according to hiashi in part1.

 

[lndra]

Are you capable of posting a scan where he says he didnt? Since thats the silly logic you used to justify hinata so why dont we use logic vs logic shall we?

I just want to let the jury know that this guy has been saying that Hinata's TLF is a aspull, and is now saying that if you can't post scans it didn't exist, shouldn't we use the logic backwards?

In any case, yes. The entire Manga up until Itachi used it, is my evidence. Because not one piece of evidence hints at, or even touches on the fact that these powers might exist. Unless you have evidence of Susano'o and the spirit weapons actually being a thing before Kishimoto asspulled them?

When was it stated lion fist was a traditional hyuga jutsu?

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日向一族の中でも宗家にしか伝わっていない、柔拳秘伝高等体術。両手から放出するチャクラを形態変化させることで、リーチと破壊力を格段に向上させる。その腕はまるで獅子のような様相を呈し、触れた相手の経絡系を喰らい尽くすのだ。

A secret high-level juuken technique, taught only to the main family of the Hyuuga clan. By changing the shape of chakra released from both hands, [the user] greatly increases reach and destructive power. The arms become entirely like lions which drain the chakra network of those they touch.

Ok, even then from what he shown, nothings improved other than genjutsu defense. Whatever he did in part one, he cloned in part two.

It just means that Naruto wasn't talented enough to break Itachi's Genjutsu, but that's Itachi we are talking about.

Waiting for statement or feat of any hyuga using lion fist. If not, it made up on spot. Juken was the ultimate ability according to hiashi in part1.

You already got destroyed fam.

 

[salamander uchiha]

"Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't."

> I need a yes or no please.

And I've made it clear nothing is a thing until it's introduced. The Sharingan wasn't a thing before to was introduced, drawing on 9 tails chakra wasn't a thing before it was introduced etc. Are they now ass pulls? The answer is no.

Your asking for a yes or no to a stupid question to which you already know the answer.

Holy shit lol.

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Red bolded - Applies for a way to save Sasuke.

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Here Itachi tells you it's origins are quite old and why it was made. In other words kishi telling you it's not an ass pull.

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Yeah, no I don't see it saving Sasuke because he wasn't doing what Kabuto was doing.

:lol my sides

The Sharingan and Boruto's generation act the same way. Boruto's gen can do stuff that Naruto's gen took years to master, nothing explained why until it happened.

No they're not the same one is a kekkei Genkai and has abilities in and of itself whereas the students are down to their own skills and abilities.

Boruto's generation can do things better than Naruto's generation, esp when it took years for them to hone these skills. Nothing explained why until it happened.

That's not the same as a dojutsu which is a kekkei genkai.

"Lack of consistency for a single thing equates to the object being clarified as ass-pull,"

inconsistency in a Kekkei genkai for showing difference in levels or use of it amongst characters that have said ability isn't an ass pull.

Gonna ask this one more time as well. "Can you show me any hint or physical statement from the Manga that Susano'o was a thing for the MS shaaringan before it showed it conventionally?"

I need a yes or no answer please.

Refer to the top of my post and understand how stupid this point is infant be bothered repeating myself.

I think someone needs to read what differentiates a retcon and an asspull.

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Somebody needs to read the bold part again and pick up a dictionary and look up the meaning of preferred use.

Kind of ironic in this case because "Rovalez monstra" is telling me additions to the stories are ass pulls when they aren't established, like Hinata's Twin Lion Fist, for example.

When her abilities weren't explored, in comparison to the Sharingan.

Take up Romales opinions with him.

Do you understand what you just wrote and tried to defend? Imagine Naruto stealing Neji's Byakugan, and using it under a criteria that Neji himself could not utilize. More so if Naruto was actually from the same Clan as him, closing the gap between excuses.

This has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with it being stated Obito could not use his own Eye ability, and Madara could use Obito's. When we know it has been stated time and time again, the original eye user can bring out the full use of their eyes.

Hence: Asspull

You used an incomparable fallacy to argue a case.

I'll make it even easier for you

Madara = sage level character.

Obito = not sage level character.

That alone creates a difference between the power and level of both of them. Let's go further

Obito's eyes = phasing himself and the Jyubi

Madara's eye = opening a portal from which he can pass.

Is their a clear difference? Yes there is.

Is it an ass pull? No it's not.

Are you :salt:y af? You know the answer to that.

Are you trying to save face? Likely.

Am I done ? Yes.

 

[lndra]

And I've made it clear nothing is a thing until it's introduced. The Sharingan wasn't a thing before to was introduced, drawing on 9 tails chakra wasn't a thing before it was introduced etc. Are they now ass pulls? The answer is no.

""Do you have any proof that Kishimoto elaborated on the ability being a thing before it appeared?

No, you don't."

> I need a yes or no please."


I already asked this question, to which you didn't reply "yes or no" -- So I'll assume its a concession accepted.

Here Itachi tells you it's origins are quite old and why it was made. In other words kishi telling you it's not an ass pull.

The Otsutsuki are quite old but they are still asspulls to the story. I'm asking where were these abilities foreshadowed in the story before they happened.

No they're not the same one is a kekkei Genkai and has abilities in and of itself whereas the students are down to their own skills and abilities.

Yes they are. No one is comparing what KKG can do, and students, but comparing the formality of how both are presented.

> One is established, and does new things overtime despite this
> One is established via old generation, but does new things despite this.

Overcome with results and breaking barriers that were stated via limitations.

inconsistency in a Kekkei genkai for showing difference in levels between characters isn't an add pull.

When the characters are capable of doing things that wasn't previously shown, it adds onto that factor. Even when two characters get outstaged by one another, despite those same restrictions.

Like Madara capable of using Obito's eye under the same restriction Obito had, or using Susano'o without eyes despite Sasuke stating you need both MS to utilize, and etc.

Madara = sage level character.

Obito = not sage level character.

Both were Juubi Jinchuriki characters. Both had Rikudou chakra, that gave them sage powers.

Hence why Obito could give Kakashi his powers and why Kakashi had PS when he used Obito's Sharingan.



I

s it an ass pull? No it's not.

One character with the original eyes can do something with the same requirements = fails
One character with borrowed eyes can do something with the same requirements = succeeds

Hence: asspull

 

[salamander uchiha]

- comparing apples to oranges and arguing a case where one doesn't exist-

Your using fallacies to argue points that don't exist or have been addressed. Repetjon may make you feel a fallacious point =fact but not I. Anyway I've started a new thread do participate if and when you get a chance.

Ps. Madara was Rokudo before becoming the Jyubi jin and his right eye(Obito's) works different to the left eye try and keep up.