[Discussion] Could God ever forgive Satan?

[jtolliver87]

its not canon because its was edited da derp....Canon is decided by the victors...but if thats too difficult to understand the further you go back the more accurate it becomes you cant argue with me because all you know is recently edited text

 

[Punk Hazard]

its not canon because its was edited da derp....Canon is decided by the victors...but if thats too difficult to understand the further you go back the more accurate it becomes you cant argue with me because all you know is recently edited text

When did I say this? I said in my post that it was decidedly rendered non-canon. I never said it was made non-canon because it was edited, I said it happens to be both. It's made non-canon due to the fact that religious institutions all have agendas, which is why I follow none.

If we start going along this track of "It was edited by man, it's unreliable," then that's just going to apply to pretty much all religious text we can find, which just renders the entire point of it moot.

 

[jtolliver87]

No my argument is that yours is invalid because you consider things not in "traditional text " non canon but what im saying is the tect i quote is the non edited version hence why is what never included but obviously canon because said people who wrote the books are mentioned in your canon version...see why i dont subscribe to any denom now?

 

[jtolliver87]

Mind you 90% of my argument is validated by the Quran

 

[Made in Heaven]

So God wants people to worship him, a form of acknowledgement, but he doesn't want acknowledgement?

Didn't mean it like that. I mean that he's not craving it like you're claiming. It is acknowledgement, but it doesn't benefit or detract from him one bit.

Good because if you don't, he kills you lmao

Much like everything else that's good for you.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Its completely unfair how someone who is to and raised by a Buddhist family and lived to be one of the nicest, helpful & pacifistic people that puts the most devout Christains to shame....can still go to hell & suffer for all eternity just because he isn't a Christian. I mean the dude was born to a Buddhsit family, raised by Buddhist and lived his entire life around fellow Buddhist. How is he able to became a Christian under those circumstances that apparently god knew about the entire time?

Again, incredibly unfair.....

 

[Genocide]

Mind you 90% of my argument is validated by the Quran

A fictional book written thousands of years ago by humans?

 

[Chikombo]

Maybe if Satan is sorry for his actions.

 

[Marin]

For a topic that's usually thrown around in a messy way, you've done a fine job with this thread so I'll compliment you for that. (Should go back to light-trolling though ) If I had the time I'd reply to most posts here quote by quote on various issues raised such as God's ego, coherence and biblibical narratives but life doesn't allow me to be online that much anymore so I'll just answer the OP.

"Can God forgive Satan?" - You ask this question by supposing that Satan is capable and does eventually see his wrongdoings. I think Dante illustrates this very well in his Divine Comedy. There the devil is portrayed as being frozen in ice in the depths of hell. This ice however, isn't there out of no reason, instead it is created by the powerful wind blown by Satan's wings as he tries to fly up to heaven and rise above God.

Poetically described, Satan keeps trying to rise above God but in doing so he is trapping himself in unbreakable ice. If he wanted to, he could stop and the ice would eventually melt and he'd be free, but in his blind hatred and arrogance he refuses to admit inferiority and mindlessly keeps trying to fly away.

I think the state between Satan and God could be described in a similar fashion. God could forgive Satan but the latter doesn't want that and as such the two cannot be reconciled. Satan may as well have the ability to repent but eternally chooses not to. The distance between him and God lasts so long as his sin is there. Eternal sinning means eternal separation.

This is all if the angels actually do have the ability to redempt. I, however, think they don't since unlike humans the fallen reject God in full knowledge and as such there is no more grace that God could extend to them which they haven't already seen. Since they rejected that grace before, surely nothing else could motivate them to come back.

 

[Michelle]

Wow... is been years, i dont even remember, since i've read all the posts from a thread.. thank you all for this

OT i thik yes, even the evil can be forgiven, if he sincerely asks God to be forgiven. Is too hypotetically though. See LaGrim's reply above, i totally agree.

About biblic texts, i dont take them ad literam but i always thought there are allegories.

Spoiler

So from 2 (two??) peoplel to make a population like Earth has today and think this is what happened, sorry but no, i think there is another message even if i dont fully understand it.

 

[YowYan]

Will full recovery be possible without forgiveness? Anywho, lets entertain the thought that satan is an entity and not something that is within all of us, and that god is something external as religious peeps so firmly belief.. If anything; why would we care if God forgives Satan? If our history and present was influenced by satan to such an extent, minding all the pain that came along with it's reign. We are the ones suffering. We and the animal kingdom. Not god. The fuq do we care for god's opinion on Satan. We experience Satan's wrath, not God.

 

[Inmate]

Wow... is been years, i dont even remember, since i've read all the posts from a thread.. thank you all for this

OT i thik yes, even the evil can be forgiven, if he sincerely asks God to be forgiven. Is too hypotetically though. See LaGrim's reply above, i totally agree.

About biblic texts, i dont take them ad literam but i always thought there are allegories.

Spoiler

So from 2 (two??) peoplel to make a population like Earth has today and think this is what happened, sorry but no, i think there is another message even if i dont fully understand it.

Absolutely. That's why I created the scenario for it to be even coherent. Evil can be forgiven but from what I know and have read here, Satan's case would be judged differently. He was after all, an angel before he turned evil. And angels are supposed to have the full truth of the gospel, so turning away from that means the decision was informed and taken knowing what the truth really is.

 

[Inmate]

Will full recovery be possible without forgiveness? Anywho, lets entertain the thought that satan is an entity and not something that is within all of us, and that god is something external as religious peeps so firmly belief.. If anything; why would we care if God forgives Satan? If our history and present was influenced by satan to such an extent, minding all the pain that came along with it's reign. We are the ones suffering. We and the animal kingdom. Not god. The fuq do we care for god's opinion on Satan. We experience Satan's wrath, not God.

That's why we should care. Satan is and will always be a part of what has happened on this planet. The Bible speaks of him as someone manipulative and deceitful and not too revealing in his actions. Meaning he doesn't come directly towards you. He can approach you in many various forms. Of which you might he informed but are not spiritually strong to retaliate.

So Satan can almost be blamed for everything that's happened within our history and present. But we're also the ones who're not attempting to rebuke that evil. I guess that per se is a spiritual perception or side of the story, but is relevant even atheistically.

It also doesn't matter because him being returned as the angel he was know for being will not change the course of our direction as individuals. We inherently have choices, and what we do with our knowledge and the freewill bestowed upon us is essentially what decides our fate. Regardless of whether Satan was a present variable in the instance you made your decisions or not. God will judge you from only your decisions outside exterior influences.

Edit: I don't know the shape of thought God has. My argument is based on the presumption that he is the same as the God as per described in the scriptures.

 

[Inmate]

Maybe if Satan is sorry for his actions.

That's the assumption we're going by. If he was really sorry, what would be the outcome of that personal enlightenment?

> Would God tell him off or,

> Harness a kind of love for his evil creation that only applies to him and forgive him, perhaps in a way he gets to atone for his sins but is banned from ever showing up in front of humans or seeing certain things?

> Perhaps be allowed to live but reborn as a human with no knowledge whatsoever instead

 

[Inmate]

Its completely unfair how someone who is to and raised by a Buddhist family and lived to be one of the nicest, helpful & pacifistic people that puts the most devout Christains to shame....can still go to hell & suffer for all eternity just because he isn't a Christian. I mean the dude was born to a Buddhsit family, raised by Buddhist and lived his entire life around fellow Buddhist. How is he able to became a Christian under those circumstances that apparently god knew about the entire time?

Again, incredibly unfair.....

If he had no idea what Christianity was, surely he would be forgiven. Why punish someone for something he's unkowningly done or not done?

As far as the fariness or unfariness of that, it is hard to tell whether the person who grew up eating words from a Buddhist deserves a chance or whatsoever. Due to the Bible not giving abundant information so people are aware of the basis of the consequences.

Perhaps there's some rule or invisible law in the way people are judged when they pass away. The Bible can't possibly contain every single truth that will give us enough pieces of information to make an imppeccaby informed decision. There's bound to be some missing thing that you can only know from being dead, theorietically speaking.

If you think Buddhism is more truthful or is the better choice, then you know what to do. But if you're suspicious of its authenticity and truthfulness; you can always objectively peruse other religions until you have all the information that you require to draw conclusions. But I will tell you that the quientessential thing; regardless of which religion you were a part of, who you were and you did and did not do will be examined. That is if the afterlife even exists.

 

[Inmate]

If that was the case, then good people who aren't Christians/worshippers wouldn't be damned, but they are.

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This is for both of you. In those scriptures, he asserts in his Word that he wants worship, and that he wants worship only for himself. Examples that stand out:

John 4:21-24New International Version (NIV)

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Deuteronomy 29:18New International Version (NIV)

18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

There's also this:

Acts 12:23New International Version (NIV)

23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.

There's a reason for Christianity being centered or placed at the core of our living. I doubt if knowledge hadn't sufficed in the human mind, Christianity would be even existent. Christianity comes from Jesus being crucified on the cross for human sins. If you go back a little before Jesus was crucified, you'll realize humans had deviated from God's intentions.

They weren't suppose to hate one another or kill each other in cold blood. But they did those things, didn't they? This example is in no way meant to insignify human existence: but It's like buying three dogs and expecting them to love each other and protect themselves form any mortal peril and waking up next morning and finding them injured or even worse, dead, because the other was overwhelmed with greediness and jealousy over the other's fortunes.

It's similar to how it is with us humans. It's not expected of us to do these terrible things that get in the way of someone else's happiness and joy; but we indulge in them anyways. God probably saw a light at the end of this and decided, if there was a way this could be revoked, without erasing memories of ever being knowledgeable or recreating a specific human race without sin, Christianity could be their saving grace. It would work well to redeem of their previous shortcomings. This is infinitismally a guess at what borne Christianity but it does simplify why it's necessary: to light away the darkness. Which without it Hitlers are likely to be born and rule with the same hostility.

On the worshipping of God part; he's so far not forced anyone, has he?

It all points back to respectfulness and benevolence that he might have for humans. Or you wouldn't have choices. The essence of your being created would be vanquished. Because, let's admit, the best part of being alive or human is the fact we have control over the mindset we undertake despite other things being inevitable and bounding. It's probably the only redeeming thing about us, and that rescinded, we're just pieces of meat waiting for death's embrace.

 

[BLAZE]

God wanting worship doesn't mean he wants people to acknowledge him. He doesn't need anyone's acknowledgement. Worship is something good for people themselves.

May logic rest in pieces

 

[Michelle]

If he had no idea what Christianity was, surely he would be forgiven. Why punish someone for something he's unkowningly done or not done?

As far as the fariness or unfariness of that, it is hard to tell whether the person who grew up eating words from a Buddhist deserves a chance or whatsoever. Due to the Bible not giving abundant information so people are aware of the basis of the consequences.

Perhaps there's some rule or invisible law in the way people are judged when they pass away. The Bible can't possibly contain every single truth that will give us enough pieces of information to make an imppeccaby informed decision. There's bound to be some missing thing that you can only know from being dead, theorietically speaking.

If you think Buddhism is more truthful or is the better choice, then you know what to do. But if you're suspicious of its authenticity and truthfulness; you van always objectively peruse other religions until you have all the information that you require to draw conclusions. But I will tell you that the quientessential thing; regardless of which religion you were a part of, who you were and you did and did not do will be examined. That is if the afterlife even exists.

Even if a buddhist has knowledge about Christianity, is impossible to switch religion when you are raised by family in ancestors other religion. If i wasnt Christian Orthodox and i found out from Google that somewhere on Earth it exists do you think i would say "thats it" and turn to it ? This is the difference between a religoius being and a believer. The religious guy will search the religion as shape of his love for God while the believer will accept the religion around him and will live according with his faith in God. Any religious war is based on humans greed.
What i have is the believe in God's presence and i dont care how anybody calls Him. I cannot explain why i believe but i do believe in a forgiven and understanding God, hence my reply about the possibility that even the worse guy can be saved.

 

[Inmate]

Even if a buddhist has knowledge about Christianity, is impossible to switch religion when you are raised by family in ancestors other religion. If i wasnt Christian Orthodox and i found out from Google that somewhere on Earth it exists do you think i would say "thats it" and turn to it ? This is the difference between a religoius being and a believer. The religious guy will search the religion as shape of his love for God while the believer will accept the religion around him and will live according with his faith in God. Any religious war is based on humans greed.
What i have is the believe in God's presence and i dont care how anybody calls Him. I cannot explain why i believe but i do believe in a forgiven and understanding God, hence my reply about the possibility that even the worse guy can be saved.

Off topic:

What's that award you got? For what was it given to you?

 

[Oblivionx]

yes He would forgive satan. After satan repents obviously, since that's the criteria for forgiveness.