Should Shinobi's give up their family for the village?

[Inmate]

A life is a life, no matter the form -- infant, child, adolescent, adult, elder -- A life remains just that, a life. Age has no effect on importance. Itachi did the noble thing; several dozen innocent lives < hundreds/thousands of innocent ones.

It seems Itachi didn't understand that.

He let Sasuke live. His life was, like you've just hinted, no different from others.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Who wouldn't get pissed off after knowing the truth? That's why Madara was right all along?

That's the point. People would get pissed, and want revenge. But that's not a problem when there's no one alive to get pissed.

 

[Pretentious]

Exactly. It was thousands of innocents verses conspiring few Uchiha's. Although they were a tad justified in their coup d'etat their ideals were threatening villagers that knew absolutely nothing of their plans.

In my personal opinion, the course of action Itachi took or the current Hokage allowed was cruel and arguably thoughtless; couldn't they incarcerate them or brainwash them, whatever was necessary without actually killing innocents, or at the very least, kill off the elders and deal with innocent Uchiha's in a nonviolent manner? Itachi quickly accepted any orders he was given, as if the village was scrupulous or sullied in their actions (and Danzo was strongly involved in the decisions undertaken), was he too blind to see Danzo was just a merciless power-hungry murderer who collected Sharingan for a living? Shisui had told him that his other eye was snatched by the latter. He should have figured by then that Danzo was after the Uchiha and wanted them to advance his personal agendas
Sasuke's reaction wasn't far-fetched. His emotions then were all scattered and seemed to have no grasp of reality. His reality had faded the moment his clan was unceremoniously eliminated, by someone whom he trusted, someone closer to him than his parents. It had long happened but he seemed to relive the emotions every time, and his conclusion, upon realizing the truth so long concealed from him, was part-justified. Danzo had indeed been the main blameworthy person and the village was presumably the same. They didn't object to the Uchiha being slaughtered just because of some rumored conspiracy. Additionally, Sasuke was: (a) A teenager, had just really hit puberty (b) Alone (c) Confused 'cause the truth had been kept away from him for what? To protect him? It seems it only fueled more casualties (d) Law. He personified Law. He knew how to carry out punishments and knew exactly what to do. Danzo was going about things the wrong way. He was Adolf Hitler and needed to be eliminated to ease everyone. e.g. Sai

This was all explained by Tobirama already -- Uchiha love the hardest, and when they lose someone closest to them, they awaken fearful power; power, and hatred become liabilities to safety thus, they all needed to be eliminated.

"One bad apple spoils the barrel."

Killing several would lead to several dozen others spiraling on Sasuke's path for revenge, except they wouldn't have the same redemption/guidance Itachi ultimately gave Sasuke.

Simple.

Individuals who label Itachi's actions as "cruel, or evil" have a limited perspective -- Think about it. He saved a village.

 

[Pretentious]

It seems Itachi didn't understand that.

He let Sasuke live. His life was, like you've just hinted, no different from others.

It was stressed that Itachi both;

A. Had a plan for Sasuke -- The Uchiha's savior/redemption
B. Cared for him more than anyone

&

C. Danzo/Hiruzen stated Sasuke could live

If Itachi didn't believe Sasuke could've redeemed the Uchiha, or proved to be better than his clansmen (which in the end he did become better, by far), he would've killed him.

 

[Inmate]

This was all explained by Tobirama already -- Uchiha love the hardest, and when they lose someone closest to them, they awaken fearful power; power, and hatred become liabilities to safety thus, they all needed to be eliminated.

"One bad apple spoils the barrel."

Killing several would lead to several dozen others spiraling on Sasuke's path for revenge, except they wouldn't have the same redemption/guidance Itachi ultimately gave Sasuke.

Simple.

Individuals who label Itachi's actions as "cruel, or evil" have a limited perspective -- Think about it. He saved a village.

They weren't exactly his. He was just given orders and obeyed them, all of which regretfully were enforced by Danzo

But Itachi could have failed, let's admit that

Sasuke was altering every minute. Hence Kotoamatsukami

In the end, he didn't really trust Sasuke


I wouldn't exactly say he saved it bro. He only remedied a problem. The Uchiha were the village too. They were one of the first clans to settle in along with the Senju.

In terms of was it wise? I wouldn't say. The Uchiha were the village's strength.
Despite fearing they would eventually get hungry for power, they depended on the Uchiha to control the Tailed Beasts if they ever threatened the village

Now, eliminating them completely. No. They could have waited for two infant Uchiha one female and male to be born before they decidedly and unwisely eliminated everyone, or if they really wanted the clan eliminated they should have killed Itachi as well after he'd carried out the order

 

[Ambivalence]

If I was a neutral third party that had to decide who gets to live, I'd obviously choose the village. More innocent people, simple as that.

If I was a part of the family, I'd never sacrifice them or myself for a bunch of nobodies that I couldn't care less about. What Itachi did was "heroic" only when you take into account this strange and quite honestly stupid obsession every character in this manga has with their village, especially since Konoha hasn't done anything for the clan to warrant this kind of devotion.

 

[Joon]

Sasuke wanting revenge on the peeple who put Itachi on the path of killing his entire clan is absolutely understandable. However taking revenge on the entire village which didn't even know the truth about the uchiha massacre and had nothing but respect for the clan is absolutely wrong.

I completely understand you on that one. He should've wen after all the elders and Konoha's council for what happened. He already got Danzo.

I disagree with Sasuke killing the higher ups. It was Itachi's choice and the fate of the Uchiha Clan was inevitable - they was going to get killed along with the Leaf Village anyway.

 

[Pretentious]

They weren't exactly his. He was just given orders and obeyed them, all of which regretfully were enforced by Danzo

But Itachi could have failed, let's admit that

Sasuke was altering every minute. Hence Kotoamatsukami

In the end, he didn't really trust Sasuke


I wouldn't exactly say he saved it bro. He only remedied a problem. The Uchiha were the village too. They were one of the first clans to settle in along with the Senju.

In terms of was it wise? I wouldn't say. The Uchiha were the village's strength.
Despite fearing they would eventually get hungry for power, they depended on the Uchiha to control the Tailed Beasts if they ever threatened the village

Now, eliminating them completely. No. They could have waited for two infant Uchiha one female and male to be born before they decidedly and unwisely eliminated everyone, or if they really wanted the clan eliminated they should have killed Itachi as well after he'd carried out the order

Oh, but they were; Itachi could've chose any route he wished, he was given a choice, a choice isn't self-action. Everything Itachi had done pertained to his own volition.

Failing is subjective, but yes as anyone can; thus, is human nature. Itachi did trust Sasuke, but trust must not be mistaken for blind acceptance, or security -- Kotoamatsukami simply acted as a fail-safe.

No, Itachi saved the village -- Think, what if the Uchiha attacked the village? The village undoubtedly would've sustained many casualties from the uprising. This would lead to several other possibilities the most prominent being:

-Hostile takeover; i.e. another rivaling village taking advantage of Konoha's weak state, doing what the Uchiha planned to do (if the Uchiha didn't succeed in their coup d'etat).

Just because the Uchiha were part of the village doesn't make them any less of a problem, they were planning to disrupt the natural order of Konoha, things had to be done in order to cease the issue, as what happens in any political situation; actions are taken.

The Uchiha were the villages strength? Clearly. But that could be said about every other shinobi in the village too. In a literal scenario they all were the villages strength, every clan, and non-clan.

Each village had their own tailed beast, the Uchiha weren't tasked with such actions in present era. If that were the case:

A. The Uchiha would've never been oppressed.
B. The council would've never devised the clan's elimination as they'd be too important.

The Uchiha were equal in the current villages system, hence why they were susceptible to extermination.

 

[Pretentious]

If I was a neutral third party that had to decide who gets to live, I'd obviously choose the village. More innocent people, simple as that.

If I was a part of the family, I'd never sacrifice them or myself for a bunch of nobodies that I couldn't care less about. What Itachi did was "heroic" only when you take into account this strange and quite honestly stupid obsession every character in this manga has with their village, especially since Konoha hasn't done anything for the clan to warrant this kind of devotion.

What a limited outlook. Here's an example so that you may recognize why your perspective is bias, and limited;

Your family member wish to blow up an entire building -- This building holds 5,000 people -- You're tasked with two choices;

A. Let him; killing 5,000 people in favor of 1.
B. Stop him; saving 5,000 people at the cost of 1.

Your choice?

 

[Lord Orochimaru]

Well.....If that's for the good of the village and the shinobi world as a whole I guess sacrificing life isn't that much...But, if it's for evil purposes and for purposes of the village only against all shinobi world....It's not worth it.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

I disagree with Sasuke killing the higher ups. It was Itachi's choice and the fate of the Uchiha Clan was inevitable - they was going to get killed along with the Leaf Village anyway.

The higher ups failure to negotiate with the uchiha and trying to find the easy way out lead to the massacre. I think Danzo even blackmailed Itachi. Don't remember that was in the manga or just the anime.

 

[Pretentious]

The higher ups failure to negotiate with the uchiha and trying to find the easy way out lead to the massacre. I think Danzo even blackmailed Itachi. Don't remember that was in the manga or just the anime.

If reasonable terms cannot come to fruition a last resort is exacted. The Uchiha were a small sliver of the village, overcome with greed through oppression. To the council they were merely a disruption of a "good" order, and needed to be terminated.

Large power > small power -- Small cannot wish to acclaim more from Large unless Small has significant worth, or information.

 

[Ambivalence]

What a limited outlook. Here's an example so that you may recognize why your perspective is bias, and limited;

Your family member wish to blow up an entire building -- This building holds 5,000 people -- You're tasked with two choices;

A. Let him; killing 5,000 people in favor of 1.
B. Stop him; saving 5,000 people at the cost of 1.

Your choice?

What a stupidly extremist example, and you call what I said limited? This is completely different than the Uchiha situation anyway. First of all, only a number of Uchiha wanted to overthrow Hiruzen and their current regime. Second, the Uchiha were isolated and mistrusted, and as one of the two founders of the village that was now actively ostracizing you, the coup could even be called justified, at least to an extent. Third, the innocent Uchiha were never spared, Danzo made Itachi kill everyone, because that makes sense. Fourth, "5,000 people" is probably like 10 casualties at the most, since none of the Uchiha except Itachi could match either Hiruzen or Danzo, let alone all of the Anbu and Jounin that were going to fight as well. The village clearly had the superior manpower, to a point where they could just arrest all the plotting members of the clan which would, at most, result in a few militia deaths, none if Danzo and Hiruzen fight themselves. But nah - let's just make a child kill their family.

If I had to address that dumb example directly, then I'd say it like this: I'd try to dissuade him/her from doing it, or find out their reasoning - who knows, maybe those 5,000 people are trash. If I'm unsuccessful, I would simply prevent their attempt by not killing them, like physical restriction. I wouldn't kill my own kin.

Only idiots resort to extremes without considering every single option beforehand.

 

[whiteboy2345]

The idea of the majority coming before the minority is usually used in the case of power hungry politicians putting themselves before their own people. The point of a republic like the USA is meant to protect minorities from the tyranny and apathy of the majority, which won't always work. The Uchiha could have been saved, but Konoha was a spoiled village if anything, having survived three consecutive wars and an attack from the Nine-Tails. Danzo didn't believe in anything but his own interests, and coerced Itachi into putting the "majority" before the minority.

Konoha as a majority has in fact become tyrannical and careless as to what their village does, regardless of whether it's good or evil, but will be the first to object to "evil" if it suits them. The very same evil they defend created evil people like Madara and Obito, and yet they tried to stop those two men. It's quite hypocritical.


And to Pretentious, everything that happened was a set of circumstances created by the weakness of the Hokage and the corruption of Danzo. I'm sure Danzo was thinking of putting the majority before the minority when he revealed Uzushio's secrets to other villages in order for the clan to be exterminated so Konoha could recover while in the war. Sooner or later, this majority before minority thing has to be sorted out and dissected completely before just throwing it out as a statement. The majority can be guilty.

 

[Pretentious]

What a stupidly extremist example, and you call what I said limited? This is completely different than the Uchiha situation anyway. First of all, only a number of Uchiha wanted to overthrow Hiruzen and their current regime. Second, the Uchiha were isolated and mistrusted, and as one of the two founders of the village that was now actively ostracizing you, the coup could even be called justified, at least to an extent. Third, the innocent Uchiha were never spared, Danzo made Itachi kill everyone, because that makes sense. Fourth, "5,000 people" is probably like 10 casualties at the most, since none of the Uchiha except Itachi could match either Hiruzen or Danzo, let alone all of the Anbu and Jounin that were going to fight as well. The village clearly had the superior manpower, to a point where they could just arrest all the plotting members of the clan which would, at most, result in a few militia deaths, none if Danzo and Hiruzen fight themselves. But nah - let's just make a child kill their family.

If I had to address that dumb example directly, then I'd say it like this - I'd true to dissuade him/her from doing it, or find out their reasoning, maybe those 5,000 people are trash. If I'm unsuccessful, I would simply prevent their attempt by not killing them, like physical restriction. I wouldn't kill my own kin.

Only idiots resort to extremes without considering every single option beforehand.

Exactly, and why do you think I'd use such an example in relevance to your premise? So that you'd hopefully (which you've done) go in exact detail why you believe your perspective on the topic was just i.e. a limited perspective, on the midst of being expanded.

Now apply your expanded notion in the eyes of Konoha, and its government who'd exacted the Uchiha's elimination.

The second bold erects my notion further.

 

[Darth AniCetuS]

If reasonable terms cannot come to fruition a last resort is exacted. The Uchiha were a small sliver of the village, overcome with greed through oppression. To the council they were merely a disruption of a "good" order, and needed to be terminated.

Large power > small power -- Small cannot wish to acclaim more from Large unless Small has significant worth, or information.

We do not know for sure what the uchiha were demanding. Besides who pushed them in a corner in the first place that they were forced to plan a coup. And Danzo kind of rushed as always and resorted to force instead giving Hiruzen some more time to negotiate.
Think of it from Sasuke's perspective and they deserved to die.

 

[Joon]

The higher ups failure to negotiate with the uchiha and trying to find the easy way out lead to the massacre. I think Danzo even blackmailed Itachi. Don't remember that was in the manga or just the anime.

Their was no easy way. In my opinion, even if they did save the Uchiha, there would still be distrust.

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[whiteboy2345]

What a limited outlook. Here's an example so that you may recognize why your perspective is bias, and limited;

Your family member wish to blow up an entire building -- This building holds 5,000 people -- You're tasked with two choices;

A. Let him; killing 5,000 people in favor of 1.
B. Stop him; saving 5,000 people at the cost of 1.
Your choice?

That's not what the discussion is completely about, it's about slaughtering innocent men, women, and children just because they are related to the conspirators. The simple belief that the majority comes before the minority regardless of the circumstances, is by all means limited in and of itself. This mindset is what led to the Uzumaki clan's extinction, all by Danzo's doing.

If a life is nothing more than a life, then surely Itachi should have taken the side of his clan right? If life is so lacking in value, why should the number of one set of lives matter in comparison to the other number. Killing the majority for the minority would have been fine to Itachi if he took your black and white view of things. The entire manga and show is about a grey world with a black and white approach to it from the protagonists.

If anything, it would be justified to destroy Konoha, all it seems to do is allow corrupt people to run the show and end innocent lives. If anything, I'd be saving more innocent lives and powerful clans along the way.

 

[Pretentious]

That's not what the discussion is completely about, it's about slaughtering innocent men, women, and children just because they are related to the conspirators. The simple belief that the majority comes before the minority regardless of the circumstances, is by all means limited in and of itself. This mindset is what led to the Uzumaki clan's extinction, all by Danzo's doing.

If a life is nothing more than a life, then surely Itachi should have taken the side of his clan right? If life is so lacking in value, why should the number of one set of lives matter in comparison to the other number. Killing the majority for the minority would have been fine to Itachi if he took your black and white view of things. The entire manga and show is about a grey world with a black and white approach to it from the protagonists.

If anything, it would be justified to destroy Konoha, all it seems to do is allow corrupt people to run the show and end innocent lives. If anything, I'd be saving more innocent lives and powerful clans along the way.

No, but it is.

Itachi had been wrapped up in a lose/lose situation. If Itachi hadn't killed the innocent clansmen, the whole clan would've died, hence Danzo saying only Sasuke could live.

When given a choice of sheer downsides you pick the choice that'll in the end propose better future acts.

 

[whiteboy2345]

No, but it is.

Itachi had been wrapped up in a lose/lose situation. If Itachi hadn't killed the innocent clansmen, the whole clan would've died, hence Danzo saying only Sasuke could live.

When given a choice of sheer downsides you pick the choice that'll in the end propose better future acts.

Which is my point, Danzo planned on wiping out the entire group to begin with. That is what I mean about the majority becoming drunk and careless with power.

What gave Konoha the right to discriminate against an entire clan of people and kill them at the slightest hint of resistance? I'm very disturbed by the seemingly random allegiance and loyalty that these shinobi have for their villages despite the latter having done nothing for them. Sasuke loving Konoha out of nowhere was my biggest pet-peeve, along with Itachi loving it out of nowhere as well.

I liked Sasuke much more as a character because he cherished the bonds that mattered like family and people that were close to him, and refused to stay loyal to a bunch of people that only cared about him because of his lineage.