Kisame vs Danzo and Edo Hiruzen

[Scooby Doo]

I don't think Kisame can win that scenario...

 

[KidGamer65]

Ok, Doton>Suiton fact. The length of the walls themselves can reach up to Boss summon size (something Kisame's volume of water reaches at.)

Doton is superior to Suiton, yes. But that doesn't automatically mean that GSB is stopped by whatever generic defense Hiruzen can make and I've yet to see actual evidence from your side that he can create something strong enough to actually block it.

I thought you wanted me to prove that the jutsu Yamato has used, Hiruzen isn't capable of doing.

Nope. I agree that he can do it.

Im only saying that Hiruzen is fully capable of changing the length to someone at Jonin/Kage level. And what we witness from characters such as Yamato and Ittan. @Bold the thing is Onoki only alter its power only to catch Madara, not a group of people. No reason to say he cant change the chakra to what Ittan has done, when we see him being capable of producing Golem, Boss summon size. And was stated to be one of Akatsuchi specialty, only for his best feat of making it human size by feats.

And what Yamato did on panel is nowhere close to what needs to be done to drain and contain Bakusui Shoha or Water Dome. Nothing actually done on panel comes close to that level so referencing those feats doesn't help you.

Keep in mind this is coming from believing that, I just dont see how Kisame's water range far exceeds Boss Summon. Only big enough to engulf one in.

:lol.

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Water Dome is EASILY larger than Great Shark Bullet, which is easily the size of any boss summon. Hell, GSB and Hirudora are EASILY larger than any boss summon individually let alone the Water Dome. Kisame's range exceeds Boss Summon level in height, width and depth.

Doesn't change the fact that 1. Doton is the element advantage and 2. Were not going to just ignore the fact that the lid is heavy to begin with. So no evidence that Suiton is beating Doton.

Lol stop with this elemental advantage nonsense. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. Elemental advantage is only a factor if the jutsu are put up against each other in an offensive vs offensive or an offensive vs defensive manner. A lid rising in water isn't offense vs defense, it's physics. I don't know how heavy you think it is but I'll wait for the evidence that it's heavy or dense enough to not float in something as large as Kisame's Water Dome.



Well a shock Kisame = a vulnerable Kisame so he gets beheaded from the next attack. Ok thats fine, I only mention this to interfere with Kisame trying to get land advantage.

[/B]

@Bold Ill keep that in mind when you want to argue against Gian's capability

Read what I said again, they are all cooperating to fool Kisame not every clone is fighting. @Bold Lol stop Samehada can not stop the impact of a chakra attack, every instance we witness he only reduces it( at least the composition being physical). And the mud would easily cloud his vision, making him completely vulnerable to Enma pole. CQC is not ending when Emna can makes clones caging him in at CQ. Someone whos capable of blocking Mokuton point blank by forming a clone, and then making them all transform into poles to format into a cage. Wont be hard to someone whos going to engaged him in the first place.

Since when? :lol. The only time he's ever had any issues with stopping the impact of a chakra based attack is when B hit him with too much chakra to absorb at once. Doton from the mouth is pure chakra. It gets absorbed with no effort. Not sure how mud would cloud his vision and make him vulnerable when:

-His Doton stream isn't mud, it's rock.
-He can sense chakra.


And if every clone isn't fighting, then I assume some will fight and some will run. If he does this then GSB just wipes them all out. Or Kisame just wipes his clones out with 1000 feeding sharks.

And because I'm curious, what does Hiruzen do once he is in this cage? :lol. Because his chakra based attacks aren't hurting him, he's not outlasting him and he's not hitting him with any bladed weapons when he himself will be outside of the cage.

Except no evidence that he can used it under Water Shark Dance

Lel how does that make sense? What reason would there be that supports Kisame being unable to use GSB in his dome?

 

[super yang]

Hahahahahahahahahahahhaha.

The ending is golden. You suggest what I said was fanfic when it is literally fact but then you bring in this fanfic bullshit about dream eating. Put down the pipe.

because the featless entity is baku & not daikodan, right... ?
Right...

and cuz we've never seen how daikodan does against natural wind-based, chakra-free attacks like bakus vacuum or hirudora...?
Wait...

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Doton is superior to Suiton, yes. But that doesn't automatically mean that GSB is stopped by whatever generic defense Hiruzen can make and I've yet to see actual evidence from your side that he can create something strong enough to actually block it.

DB:
"The length, width, direction, and curve of the chasm are shaped and fashioned by the user. Manipulating the Dragon Veins requires fine chakra control, but if one has such skill, they can use this technique to divide the space between the enemy and their own team in two, destroy enemy camps or defences, and even to attack."

All thats needed is a block thickness of a wall, which Suiton has no capability of tearing through. Unless you want to claim the water could just reform after clashing against a wall at its own size.

And what Yamato did on panel is nowhere close to what needs to be done to drain and contain Bakusui Shoha or Water Dome. Nothing actually done on panel comes close to that level so referencing those feats doesn't help you.

By what scaling are you using? Because the best we seen Yamato rising the earth easily puts him against Kisame's Suiton[

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]

:lol.

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Water Dome is EASILY larger than Great Shark Bullet, which is easily the size of any boss summon. Hell, GSB and Hirudora are EASILY larger than any boss summon individually let alone the Water Dome. Kisame's range exceeds Boss Summon level in height, width and depth.

:lol whats this picture suppose to prove? Obviously not your point. All that scan shows that its above tree, which those tree are hardly genuinely tall to begin with.

Lol stop with this elemental advantage nonsense. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. Elemental advantage is only a factor if the jutsu are put up against each other in an offensive vs offensive or an offensive vs defensive manner. A lid rising in water isn't offense vs defense, it's physics. I don't know how heavy you think it is but I'll wait for the evidence that it's heavy or dense enough to not float in something as large as Kisame's Water Dome.

It isn't nonsense because its also applies to physics on why Doton is the element advantage to Suiton. Im sure the Doton would be much more firm then those trees that WD/GWSW isnt capable of knocking over trees by the impact that it was created, yet alone having it move from its position. I dont have good reason to believe or agree with your claim.

Well a shock Kisame = a vulnerable Kisame so he gets beheaded from the next attack. Ok thats fine, I only mention this to interfere with Kisame trying to get land advantage.

[/B]

@Bold Ill keep that in mind when you want to argue against Gian's capability

No idea what you did with this quote.

Since when? :lol. The only time he's ever had any issues with stopping the impact of a chakra based attack is when B hit him with too much chakra to absorb at once. Doton from the mouth is pure chakra. It gets absorbed with no effort. Not sure how mud would cloud his vision and make him vulnerable when:

-His Doton stream isn't mud, it's rock.
-He can sense chakra.

The same that happen to B would be the same thing thats going to happen when dealing with a volume of streamed rocks, which Samehada doesnt have a continuous absorption capability.

-Doton stream always start by mud[

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]. You can check Hiruzen beginning of the stream @ chapter 662. Further more DB 3 description with Earth element jutsu capability: "Earth Release techniques have the ability to change the strength and composition of the earth from being as hard as metal to as soft as clay". The caster choice on how he wants to manipulate Doton.

- Hardly matters when based on what I addressed above. And if Kisame so ever stabs a clone, they simply hold him down for enough time for it to be a success. Should be easy as when against Edo Tensei.

And if every clone isn't fighting, then I assume some will fight and some will run. If he does this then GSB just wipes them all out. Or Kisame just wipes his clones out with 1000 feeding sharks.

Too bad this is all fan fic. Lets not use Kisame wank capability arguments to support your case now. Unless you dont mind contradicting the manga that Kisame isn't capable of containing two enemies fleeing in opposite directions.

And because I'm curious, what does Hiruzen do once he is in this cage? :lol. Because his chakra based attacks aren't hurting him, he's not outlasting him and he's not hitting him with any bladed weapons when he himself will be outside of the cage.

Or Enma chokes him to death, with an exposed arm, no need to breath here.

Lel how does that make sense? What reason would there be that supports Kisame being unable to use GSB in his dome?

Lol sounds like its just you avoiding to prove a positive claim. Sorry its not my job. As for me Im going by what manga has provided. Once the jutsu is done, its no longer usable for anything else.[

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]

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Uhhh because Shisui's eye wasn't back by that point I thought?

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Bro It's not that serious. Nothing In my post stated any "hate" for Kisame. His fans are the worse on this particular site though since yall think he does everything instantly with every one watching. lmao Baku shits on the dome and Kisame has Zero counters to Baku. Once he is touch Via Izanagi spawn its GG, Enma cage shits on Kisame unless youre saying he's stronger then Diamond. Lmao The WD is countered so hard it isnt even funny, but the fact that it's your only argument makes it that much more funny! lmao

No one ever stated that. It's just your usual awful straw man argument. Baku shits on itself, true. That movement binding seal is broken via the release and emission of chakra, per cannon. Easy. Just like Tayuya was resisting Shikamaru's Shadow Possession with chakra emission alone [

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][

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], Kisame does the same by emitting his monstrous amounts of chakra. In the never happening scenario that Kisame laughably gets caught inside Enmas cage, Kisame would simply absorb all Enmas chakra via physical touch [

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]-[

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], since the Adamantine Pole is literally Enmas body. So your brilliant tactic just screwed over Hiruzen.

Kisame cannot preform Ninjutsu while fused. Come again.

Kisame is canonically using Ninjutsu while fused.

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Try reading the manga, then you come again. There is absolutely nothing supporting the notion that Kisame can't use Ninjutsu within the WD. He already is.

Enma pole propells him out no diff. Enma cage boxes him off bat the moment the fight starts before water is even spit out. Earth wall Could create a Giant Pillars with in the dome (It's size isnt limited to what was shown databook fact). Or simply create clones of enma then they can be used to multiply the lenght and time 10 fold by linking up the top to bottom. And the moment Kisame gets close to Hiruzen its GG with Enma cage every single time since he has zero feats to counter the combo.

Not to mention a wind stream under water propels him out easily. The WD argument is super weak and shows why this site only defends powerhouses since the big guns are spoon fed with zero strategy. lmao

All low quality, flimsy, and laughable tactics. Enma's Pole can only propel Hiruzen upwards, and Kisamehada can drain bijuu quantities of chakra within seconds. If Hiruzen manages to make it out of the WD from above, Enma is undoubtedly drained of all his chakra and poofs, and than Kisamehada along with the entire WD follows Hiruzen in any direction he tries to jump in - which makes your entire tactic extremely futile. Not going to even bother addressing your horrible fantasy manga where Enmas Cage is magically summoned around Kisame at match start, which again, is futile anyways. Chakra absorption GG's Enmas Cage. A giant Earth Wall in front of a chakra absorbing opponent is another Lol.

A wind stream simply propels him out. Yeah, okay. Anything else?

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Zero counter to off bat Baku summon. Instant GG. If you think he can put Sama to the side, CLap hands and mold chakra, then gather water in mouth and create a lake faster then S/T ninjutsu... The wank is Too real.

Instant GG with the Baku summoning. Lmao, good God dude. Retarded arguments, that I shouldn't even be nor normally would waist my time addressing. Danzo must first perform the summoning, while Kisame simultaneously perform the single seal for the WD. And if you actually want to go by the manga for once in your life, by the time Baku even begun it's suction, Danzo was already

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, which means Kisame has more than enough time to properly react. So go ahead and toss that entire GG notion right into the garbage, where it belongs. Baku's suction is nowhere near as fast as the amount of water Kisame can regurgitate in mere seconds, which is a clear fact, unless you want to continue to butcher the manga. So the WD would still go up, consuming Baku, and making his suction futile, as it exhales everything he sucks up from it's trunk. So it would literally be sucking in water, just to exhale it right back out until it runs out of oxygen. Kisame has other ways to lol stomp this thing, just in case want to go another route as well.

The difference is is that Danzo never had Izanagi activated prior to the battle, so he simply can't rewrite events that occurred before Izanagi's activation. With full intel, he will activate Izanagi and I'm going to assume that OP meant to have his arm start off unsealed. If that's the case, he activates Izanagi prior to getting enveloped by the WaterDome and through there, he can use Izanagi to alter his destiny and can make it seem as if the WD never enveloped him in the first place.

The next scan with Danzo not allowing himself to die is a good point, but take into account that Izanagi is not activated and if he chooses to activate Izanagi through Shisui's eye, he simply can't rewrite the events prior to activating Izanagi, but only during the activation of Izanagi (through Shisui's eyes), so he can't make it seem as if he never entered the battle in the first place (if that makes sense).

And of course, the last scenario involved a Danzo who was pressured and couldn't think properly. He was processing many options and the previous panel makes it clear that he was struggling to think about using either Izanagi or Koto, but he decided upon using Koto to subdue Madara, so in order to do that, he simply can't throw it away for Izanagi.

Okay, my point is that he can't use Izanagi (regardless of when it's activated) as means to spawn anywhere around the planet that he wants. Do you agree or disagree with that? That is what should be refuted, if you're disagreeing. I'm saying he can only spawn himself within the general area, and not use it as means of completely escaping the battlefield by spawning all the way back in Konoha, for example. I'm saying, if he was capable of doing so, he would of done it, given the circumstances I presented.

Now, if you want to argue that Izanagi would activate before he gets engulfed by the WD, that's different. And the answer is, he can't. Based on the manga, Danzo must form

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and than a short window of time passes before Izanagi activates. Within this short window of time that occurs after the three seals are formed, Sasuke was able raise his bow, manifest an arrow (

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), steadily aim it, and than fire his Susano'o Arrow at Danzo, before Izanagi was finally

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. That is simply not beating a technique that requires a single hand seal, and engulfs the entire surrounding area within a single panel [

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]. Izanagi alone isn't saving him.

 

[Curse Mark]

because the featless entity is baku & not daikodan, right... ?
Right...

and cuz we've never seen how daikodan does against natural wind-based, chakra-free attacks like bakus vacuum or hirudora...?
Wait...

Are you okay? I'm worried about you.

The only thing Baku can do is suck air. Anything else is your fanfic. Whereas GSB can absorb chakra in canon and was said to be able to tear its opponents to shreds.

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3T being active doesn't prove its MS ability was available. Kakashi's sharingan is always 3T and that's why it's always covered [like Danzo]

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Kisame is canonically using Ninjutsu while fused.

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Try reading the manga, then you come again. There is absolutely nothing supporting the notion that Kisame can't use Ninjutsu within the WD. He already is.

FT how is using WD scans/description suppose to support the fact that he can used another jutsu under it?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Are you okay? I'm worried about you.

The only thing Baku can do is suck air. Anything else is your fanfic. Whereas GSB can absorb chakra in canon and was said to be able to tear its opponents to shreds.



3T being active doesn't prove its MS ability was available. Kakashi's sharingan is always 3T and that's why it's always covered [like Danzo]

Read

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The eye had it's power back.

FT how is using WD scans/description suppose to support the fact that he can used another jutsu under it?

Because the WD (Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha) and the Water Prison Shark Dance (Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu) are two different techniques.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Because the WD (Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha) and the Water Prison Shark Dance (Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu) are two different techniques.

Right, so how is that evidence that two different jutsu and priorities are capable of doing the same thing?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Right, so how is that evidence that two different jutsu and priorities are capable of doing the same thing?

What other evidence do you possibly need. Kisame is literally using a separate Ninjutsu while fused, with the WD. The evidence is right in front of you.

 

[Curse Mark]

Read

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The eye had it's power back.





Because the WD (Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha) and the Water Prison Shark Dance (Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu) are two different techniques.

Ah I guess it did.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

What other evidence do you possibly need. Kisame is literally using a separate Ninjutsu while fused, with the WD. The evidence is right in front of you.

What you are showing in front of me is that very "ninjutsu" your showing is WD. Not another jutsu

Have I been deceived this whole time? I thought WD is short version of saying water prison shark dance? The only water jutsu capable of altering its position in order to reflect the direction of Kisame movements. The jutsu capable of sucking out chakra all but the last dregs of opponents chakra?

 

[super yang]

Are you okay? I'm worried about you.

The only thing Baku can do is suck air. Anything else is your fanfic. Whereas GSB can absorb chakra in canon and was said to be able to tear its opponents to shreds.

So you don't see the trees, dirt & volkswagen-sized rocks in that scan?

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[Forbidden Technique]

What you are showing in front of me is that very "ninjutsu" your showing is WD. Not another jutsu

Have I been deceived this whole time? I thought WD is short version of saying water prison shark dance? The only water jutsu capable of altering its position in order to reflect the direction of Kisame movements. The jutsu capable of sucking out chakra all but the last dregs of opponents chakra?

WD=Water Dome=Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha.

All I could find on the DB translation:

Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha covers the environment surrounding the enemy in one body of water, a gigantic water prison is created.

Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha is nothing more than the actual giant Water Dome Prison. Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu (Water Prison Shark Dance Technique) allows for the Water Dome to move in correlation with Kisame being at the center; as well as, absorbing the opponents chakra.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

WD=Water Dome=Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha.

All I could find on the DB translation:



Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha is nothing more than the actual giant Water Dome Prison. Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu (Water Prison Shark Dance Technique) allows for the Water Dome to move in correlation with Kisame being at the center; as well as, absorbing the opponents chakra.

So the issue here is taking it out of context. And poor translation.

Wiki uses DB description too and this sentence is much more clear:

After using the Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave and fusing with Samehada, Kisame Hoshigaki acts as the centre of the resultant giant dome of water...

This is what Bakusui Shoha is[

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]: Nothing more nothing less. adding Dai just means Greater version of the description in the link, nothing more. And by doing Bakusui Shoha, he is now capable of using the water source to transform it to another jutsu. As we know is Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu.


(Dai)Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha = the terrain manipulation set up.
(Dai)Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha =/= Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu

Edit: Plus, having both with different names should be a dead give away its not the same thig

 

[KidGamer65]

DB:
"The length, width, direction, and curve of the chasm are shaped and fashioned by the user. Manipulating the Dragon Veins requires fine chakra control, but if one has such skill, they can use this technique to divide the space between the enemy and their own team in two, destroy enemy camps or defences, and even to attack."

All thats needed is a block thickness of a wall, which Suiton has no capability of tearing through. Unless you want to claim the water could just reform after clashing against a wall at its own size.

Amazing. So all you've done is prove that he can choose the size of his jutsu, which is obvious. I'm still going to wait for actual evidence that it's strong enough to block GSB, but considering you've been arguing this point for 2 posts now and have yet to actually support your stance I'll just take this as you not having any evidence.

By what scaling are you using? Because the best we seen Yamato rising the earth easily puts him against Kisame's Suiton[

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]

Wtf? Are you really going to try and argue that this is anywhere near the scale of the regular Bakusui Shoha let alone WD? I hope not.

:lol whats this picture suppose to prove? Obviously not your point. All that scan shows that its above tree, which those tree are hardly genuinely tall to begin with.

I was hoping that a simple picture of it's size would allow you to use what little common sense you have to come to the conclusion that a boss summon being the size of WD is idiotic, but alas. Not surprised at this response, especially since I've already broken down the comparisons for you.

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and Hirudora are beyond boss summon size. The Hirudora Gai used on Madara was nowhere near the size of this one yet it wasn't that far away from Hachibi's size.

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is bigger than both.

:lol @ the trees not being tall when we can see 2 sets of trees in this panel and we can see how tall one of them is compared to the Mountains in the background. Downplay harder pls.

It isn't nonsense because its also applies to physics on why Doton is the element advantage to Suiton. Im sure the Doton would be much more firm then those trees that WD/GWSW isnt capable of knocking over trees by the impact that it was created, yet alone having it move from its position. I dont have good reason to believe or agree with your claim.

Yet if I asked to explain how your logic made sense I'd either get no reply or some retarded ass reply. :lol Doton beats Suiton because it absorbs water. It shouldn't take a genius to tell that this is unimportant when talking about whether or not the lid will float in water or not. What's worse is that you have zero evidence that:

-It's too dense to float in the water.
-It's anchored to the ground, or even anchored to the ground well enough to prevent it from rising up in the dome, especially when the water is being created inside of the lid, thus the water itself will be pushing the lid upwards.

Next time you want to use Jutsu that have been in only one panel of the Manga, come with real evidence and not nonsense argumentation. "I'm sure" isn't an argument. "I'm sure" is speculation.

The same that happen to B would be the same thing thats going to happen when dealing with a volume of streamed rocks, which Samehada doesnt have a continuous absorption capability.

:lol What the hell?

B's situation happened because there was too much chakra. Either prove that Hiruzen's Doton contains chakra comparable to the version 2 state of the Bijuu w/ the second highest amount of tails or gtfo. Not interested in this nonsense speculation of yours.

-Doton stream always start by mud[

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]. You can check Hiruzen beginning of the stream @ chapter 662. Further more DB 3 description with Earth element jutsu capability: "Earth Release techniques have the ability to change the strength and composition of the earth from being as hard as metal to as soft as clay". The caster choice on how he wants to manipulate Doton.

Yes, the very small portion of Hiruzen's stream at the beginning of the stream is mud. The rest is rock. That small portion isn't blinding anyone so not sure what point you think you have here. And being able to make rock hard or soft=/=Being able to spit out straight mud.

- Hardly matters when based on what I addressed above. And if Kisame so ever stabs a clone, they simply hold him down for enough time for it to be a success. Should be easy as when against Edo Tensei.

If he stabs a clone then the clone vanishes. Period. Edo Tensei is irrelevant. There is no "hold him down long enough". And please don't cite Shiki Fujin. The only time Hiruzen or anyone's clone has ever stayed after taking multiple direct hits is when they were already locked in the jutsu.

Too bad this is all fan fic. Lets not use Kisame wank capability arguments to support your case now. Unless you dont mind contradicting the manga that Kisame isn't capable of containing two enemies fleeing in opposite directions.

Lol what kind of stupidity am I reading? Sometimes I wonder if you people read the Manga with a plastic bag over your heads. Kisame has never shown that he absolutely cannot get 2 people at once while in the water dome. B and that guy split up thinking that Kisame would go after B and not him, but Kisame went after the other guy because:

1. He doesn't care if he lives or dies.
2. He knew that B would come back to save him so he wouldn't have to waste time and effort trying to contain two people.

Or Enma chokes him to death, with an exposed arm, no need to breath here.

-Because Kisame would sit there and let Enma choke him to death.
-Because Enma would be able to choke him to death with the spikes coming from his body stopping that.

Kisame simply uses any Ninjutsu using the water surrounding him and wipes Hiruzen out. His Ninjutsu doesn't form near him so he doesn't need to be outside of the cage to do anything. Try again.

Lol sounds like its just you avoiding to prove a positive claim. Sorry its not my job. As for me Im going by what manga has provided. Once the jutsu is done, its no longer usable for anything else.

We have done this wayyyy too many times for you to still not know how to debate. Gtfo with this bullshit logic. Manga has provided no reason for you to believe that he can't use Ninjutsu while using Water Dome so why would you be able to say "prove he can use Ninjutsu under it" and be correct?

And what exactly is the bold based on again? Oh wait, nothing. That's why we are having this discussion in the first place.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

So the issue here is taking it out of context. And poor translation.

Wiki uses DB description too and this sentence is much more clear:



This is what Bakusui Shoha is[

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]: Nothing more nothing less. adding Dai just means Greater version of the description in the link, nothing more. And by doing Bakusui Shoha, he is now capable of using the water source to transform it to another jutsu. As we know is Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu.


(Dai)Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha = the terrain manipulation set up.
(Dai)Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha =/= Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu

Edit: Plus, having both with different names should be a dead give away its not the same thig

Um, no. The description you took from the Wiki agrees with me.

After using the Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave and fusing with Samehada, Kisame Hoshigaki acts as the centre of the resultant giant dome of water. Once this technique has been activated, the dome alters its position in order to reflect the direction of his movements, making it difficult for his target to escape as long as he continues his pursuit.

It specifically states AFTER Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave and fusing with Samehada, Kisame acts as the center. It's a clear sequence of events. The entire dome of water was formed first (Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave), Kisame fused, THEN came the activation of the Shark Dance Technique. Once this technique (Shark Dance) has been activated, the dome alters it's position in order to reflect the direction of Kisames movements. That is exactly what I said to you. It doesn't state that once this technique activates, it forms the entire dorm of water. The entire water dome already exists, before the Shark Dance Technique is activated, because it's a complete different jutsu. Water Prison Shark Dance Jutsu is nothing more than what I already stated to you.

And since you brought up the Wiki as a reliable source, here's Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha's description.

This technique is a larger version of the Water Release: Exploding Water Colliding Wave. With it, the user spews out a massive amount of water, covering an entire area with crushing waves. The produced ocean of water can be used for further techniques, and even gathered into a gigantic water prison, allowing Kisame to use his Water Prison Shark Dance Technique.

Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha can be gathered into a gigantic water prison, which THEN allows Kisame to use the Water Prison Shark Dance Technique. Your Wiki source all points towards Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha being the giant dome of water, and then Water Prison Shark Dance Technique coming AFTER it. And this also makes it actually accurate with what the manga states and showcases.

Kisame uses Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha, and what happens?

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And then Kisame gave us a clear description of Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu, which has NOTHING to do with the actual forming of the dorm of water.

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The name of the jutsu holds the least bit of relevance, when the manga and databook both point to one single conclusion. And even then, Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu isn't just a bigger version of Suiton: Suikōdan no Jutsu. The former has a significant additional ability to absorb the enemies chakra, while the latter does not. Exactly like how Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha isn't just a larger version of Suiton: Bakusui Shōha.

Additionally, we have the fact that your non supported assertion doesn't make a single difference to my overall point. Even if Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu is the actual dorm of water, Kisame is still using and maintaining the Ninjutsu while fused. Wouldn't be possible if he was trully incapable of using Ninjutsu, while fused. The entire notion makes zero sense to begin with, and is utterly false. If he is already using and maintaining a technique, there is nothing stating he can't use and maintain another.

 

[Curse Mark]

So you don't see the trees, dirt & volkswagen-sized rocks in that scan?

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Holy shit. Are you joking? ALL HE CAN DO IS INHALE AIR.

Because he inhales it so fiercely it yanks shit with it. But that's totally irrelevant to your argument that there's some type of dream-eating genjutsu field around him !!

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Amazing. So all you've done is prove that he can choose the size of his jutsu, which is obvious. I'm still going to wait for actual evidence that it's strong enough to block GSB, but considering you've been arguing this point for 2 posts now and have yet to actually support your stance I'll just take this as you not having any evidence.

Lol come on KG, asking me to prove that an element advantage defense capable of absorbing impact of water, which its inferior to Doton is pretty stupid and rhetorical. GSB encounter would be no different then Hiruzen blocking Water Dragon with Doton. Except this time Hiruzen isn't using pure chakra made-source but, pre existing Earth, increasing its VOLUME of defence to match the size of GSB. So the moment Doton absorbs the impact of Water at its size, The shark loses its stability clashing against the actual floor, thats non chakra.

Please dont even try to act like you have evidence that this jutsu is capable to gouge through landscapes. Yet alone ANY SUITON jutsus thats built to inflict harm from the sudden force that it exerts. Because every Suiton blast in the manga has zero feats capable of doing such. ZERO.

Wtf? Are you really going to try and argue that this is anywhere near the scale of the regular Bakusui Shoha let alone WD? I hope not.

Wtf? Really? I really hope your aren't going to actually argue this length and width [

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] of this Suiton actually outclasses [

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] This length and width of this Doton Wall. WD I'll give you.

I was hoping that a simple picture of it's size would allow you to use what little common sense you have to come to the conclusion that a boss summon being the size of WD is idiotic, but alas. Not surprised at this response, especially since I've already broken down the comparisons for you.

I was hoping you would properly read what I said that I never said it was boss summon size. I said its big enough to engulf one. And YES thats a huge difference in statement. Unless you want to pick on me for not using a better term describing the jutsu being wider then be my guess.

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and Hirudora are beyond boss summon size. The Hirudora Gai used on Madara was nowhere near the size of this one yet it wasn't that far away from Hachibi's size.

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is bigger than both.

Irrelevant tell me something I didn't know, based on my statement I already believe its size is, and what I mention above. WD = GSB in length/height. WD>>GSB in width/wide range.

Yet if I asked to explain how your logic made sense I'd either get no reply or some retarded ass reply. :lol Doton beats Suiton because it absorbs water. It shouldn't take a genius to tell that this is unimportant when talking about whether or not the lid will float in water or not. What's worse is that you have zero evidence that:

-It's too dense to float in the water.
-It's anchored to the ground, or even anchored to the ground well enough to prevent it from rising up in the dome, especially when the water is being created inside of the lid, thus the water itself will be pushing the lid upwards.

Next time you want to use Jutsu that have been in only one panel of the Manga, come with real evidence and not nonsense argumentation. "I'm sure" isn't an argument. "I'm sure" is speculation.

Then lets use logic because

1. The weight of the rock is capable of crushing a summoning, without it breaking apart on contact, considering the height it was dropped at. Only to be lifted apart when the summoning multiply its power. With nothing huge underneath it would mean it gets buried underneath the ground floor.

2. The lid is a flat surface on the bottom, meaning no open gaps to where a traps opponent has open space. They will literally get squash underneath it. So there goes that @Bold statement.

:lol What the hell?

B's situation happened because there was too much chakra. Either prove that Hiruzen's Doton contains chakra comparable to the version 2 state of the Bijuu w/ the second highest amount of tails or gtfo. Not interested in this nonsense speculation of yours.

I dont need to prove that it has chakra comparable to Buijuus, because it isnt. I just need to prove that based on the fact that Samehaad absorption range wasnt capable of completely absorbing a moderate size Fireball, and its non interested in absorbing ink from the Water Dome, sprayed all over him at its range. 2 factoring points. That taste and range it can consume at a time, Samehada is all about.

Yes, the very small portion of Hiruzen's stream at the beginning of the stream is mud. The rest is rock. That small portion isn't blinding anyone so not sure what point you think you have here. And being able to make rock hard or soft=/=Being able to spit out straight mud.

KG Hiruzen stream is starts off as mud because Hiruzen wanted to CONVERT them to match solid rocks from Tobi's own Doton stream. What Im trying to prove here is that Hiruzen can MANIPULATE the usage on how he wants to convert his Doton in this situation. If he is able to convert the mud to solid rock why is it hard/or impossible to not changed them to solid rock? It exist as mud in the first place Lol.

If he stabs a clone then the clone vanishes. Period. Edo Tensei is irrelevant. There is no "hold him down long enough". And please don't cite Shiki Fujin. The only time Hiruzen or anyone's clone has ever stayed after taking multiple direct hits is when they were already locked in the jutsu.

Lol BS, The clone does not vanish the moment contact is made. And don't even mention Bee's volume of chakra because Samehada's chakra is based on taste. And if he likes it, its would want to consume MORE. A Clone buys 1-2 second time for an easy output for pole extension.

Lol what kind of stupidity am I reading? Sometimes I wonder if you people read the Manga with a plastic bag over your heads. Kisame has never shown that he absolutely cannot get 2 people at once while in the water dome. B and that guy split up thinking that Kisame would go after B and not him, but Kisame went after the other guy because:

1. He doesn't care if he lives or dies.
2. He knew that B would come back to save him so he wouldn't have to waste time and effort trying to contain two people.

These 2 points that you mention doesn't change the fact that this was the jutsu weakness that was exploit in the manga. Try again with actual evidence that he can perform other jutsu under Shark Dance.

-Because Kisame would sit there and let Enma choke him to death.
-Because Enma would be able to choke him to death with the spikes coming from his body stopping that.

-LMAO Yes Kisame is going to SIT there because he has no where to go when his CAGED.

- Spikes only capable of producing from his Fin. Otherwise you gonna need evidence it can be created from his neck. And the fact that he could have also stopped Bee's tentacles, from strangling him, forcing him away from Ponta to get out of the cage. So other Enma hands whole him down while he gets coked out.

Kisame simply uses any Ninjutsu using the water surrounding him and wipes Hiruzen out. His Ninjutsu doesn't form near him so he doesn't need to be outside of the cage to do anything. Try again.

Too bad he can't once Shark Dance starts.

We have done this wayyyy too many times for you to still not know how to debate. Gtfo with this bullshit logic. Manga has provided no reason for you to believe that he can't use Ninjutsu while using Water Dome so why would you be able to say "prove he can use Ninjutsu under it" and be correct?

And what exactly is the bold based on again? Oh wait, nothing. That's why we are having this discussion in the first place.

Indeed this has gone to far when, as you still trying to have me disprove a negative claim for you. Please GTFO of this BS logic. Your complaining about how to debate yet want us to base ours on fallacy to make your case.

I gave 2 reasons on I dont see it being supported while you gave absolutely shit to support your positive claim.

My reason:

1. "Kisame isn't capable of containing two enemies fleeing in opposite directions. " We witness this, not only explain by Gyuki giving us readers how the jutsu works, but the very fact that Bee was capable of forcing Kisame away to save Ponta himself. Fact. I dont care what BS excused your trying to make for Kisame. If Kisame could have he wouldnt have need to trick Bee to begin with. If he could have would have no gave Bee an advantage underwater to begin with.

2. "Post a very scan that once the jutsu is over, the water source is finished too." This is self explanatory once you see the scan.

Additional: The jutsu is capable of altering its position in order to reflect the direction of Kisame's movements. Water-shockwave has never ever stated to be capable of doing that. The jutsu is capable of sucking out chakra from the opponent inside the water. Water-shockwave has never ever stated to be capable of doing that. So why should I believe two different jutsu are capable of doing the same thing? I shouldn't, case and point.

So again I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE the fan fic of Kisames's capability. Not once did you give one ounce of reasoning to enables him to do it, yet alone support your claims.

I like how you wanted to skip the scan provided from the Bold. This time your not skipping it

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[Brother Numpsay]

Um, no. The description you took from the Wiki agrees with me.



It specifically states AFTER Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave and fusing with Samehada, Kisame acts as the center. It's a clear sequence of events. The entire dome of water was formed first (Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave), Kisame fused, THEN came the activation of the Shark Dance Technique. Once this technique (Shark Dance) has been activated, the dome alters it's position in order to reflect the direction of Kisames movements. That is exactly what I said to you. It doesn't state that once this technique activates, it forms the entire dorm of water. The entire water dome already exists, before the Shark Dance Technique is activated, because it's a complete different jutsu. Water Prison Shark Dance Jutsu is nothing more than what I already stated to you.

And since you brought up the Wiki as a reliable source, here's Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha's description.



Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha can be gathered into a gigantic water prison, which THEN allows Kisame to use the Water Prison Shark Dance Technique. Your Wiki source all points towards Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha being the giant dome of water, and then Water Prison Shark Dance Technique coming AFTER it. And this also makes it actually accurate with what the manga states and showcases.

Kisame uses Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha, and what happens?

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And then Kisame gave us a clear description of Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu, which has NOTHING to do with the actual forming of the dorm of water.

You must be registered for see images

The name of the jutsu holds the least bit of relevance, when the manga and databook both point to one single conclusion. And even then, Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu isn't just a bigger version of Suiton: Suikōdan no Jutsu. The former has a significant additional ability to absorb the enemies chakra, while the latter does not. Exactly like how Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha isn't just a larger version of Suiton: Bakusui Shōha.

Additionally, we have the fact that your non supported assertion doesn't make a single difference to my overall point. Even if Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu is the actual dorm of water, Kisame is still using and maintaining the Ninjutsu while fused. Wouldn't be possible if he was trully incapable of using Ninjutsu, while fused. The entire notion makes zero sense to begin with, and is utterly false. If he is already using and maintaining a technique, there is nothing stating he can't use and maintain another.

Heres the thing FT. If you want to argue that Bakusui Shōha, form in a Dome, is capable of using other ninjutsu, then be my guess.

If you want to argue that, once the priorities has changed, when its now capable of altering its position in order to reflect the direction of Kisame's movements, and capable of absorbing chakra inside the water, can STILL perform other jutsus, then we going to have problems. Because thats what Shark Dance Technique does, stated by Kisame. Not Dai Bakusui Shōha and vise versa to what Bakusui shoha can that Shark Dance couldnt.