Hokage Kakashi vs Tsunade

[Black Wolf]

Tsunade is a one dimensional fighter; people pointing that out aren't "arguing anything to see Tsunade lose". They are pointing out her very obvious flaws.

Tsunade has absolutely no combat versatility. She is Taijutsu only. This is extremely restrictive as it requires consistent CQC. This isn't a problem for people like Gai and the Raikage; they have the speed to consistently force CQC against their opponent. Tsunade, on the other hand, is noticeably below average in speed.

Tsunade has super strength, but most characters can emulate / mimic super strength anyway. Attacks like Rasengan, Chidori, Raikiri, Hell Stab, etc . . . those are all moves that, despite the user not being as strong as Tsunade, still has strikes that are just as lethal. So again, super strength is great if you happen to be fighting a Susano'o rib cage, but in 99% of scenarios, that strength is superfluous.

Tsunade's trump card is a regeneration technique, but unfortunately for her the manga has had Madara compare Byakugo directly to Hashirama's regeneration. What's worse is that Madara eventually came to acquire that very regeneration technique, and was even in Sage Mode (which amplifies all abilities). Despite that, Madara was unable to grow back his arm and instead had to attach a Zetsu arm. This proves that regeneration techniques can close wounds, but do not work like Majin Buu / Piccolo regeneration where you pop out a new limb scott free.

So in the end, you've got a slow Taijutsu user who happens to hit very hard (which most characters can do through strike / punching augmentation jutsu) and who has a regeneration technique that has limits.

Compare that to people like Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi who are well versed in all ninja fields (ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu), are effective at all combat ranges (with techniques for CQC as well as mid / long range), have utilized numerous strategies in their battles (intelligence / tactics), and who've used pretty much every ninja tool the manga has shown us (kunai, shuriken, swords, ground spikes, chains, ninja wire, smoke bombs, etc). I'll almost always pick the versatile fighter over someone like Tsunade.

The only times one-dimensional fighters work are in the case of Minato, Raikage, and Gai, all of which excel greatly in speed to compromise for their lack of versatility. Even Gai is versatile in the sense that he uses nunchucks and has gated attacks that are effective at all ranges (Morning Peacock and Afternoon Tiger).

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

She has a 3.5 in speed according to DB3 compared to Kakashi's 4.5. Kakashi has blitzed the likes of Obito before the

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.

Cool, you proved that Tsunade is slower than Kakashi, which I already knew and said.

She specializes in evasion tactics, yet she got tagged numerous times by Part I Kabuto and was the only Kage who ended up with swords in her gut against Madara.

Again... a rusty Tsunade that hadn't fought in 20 years. Don't see the relevance of that Madara point, since she wouldn't have blitzed him without having Byakugou activated, which she did.

This is also a strawman as I never mentioned blitzing. I mentioned tactical usage of Kage Bunshin and Dotons, a tactic that worked against the likes of Itachi and Pain.

Kage Bunshins won't work. Neither will doton, as I've already explained.

Again, I never suggested that he will attempt blitzing her without incapacitating her first.

Which won't happen.

The argument that Kakashi cannot use Raikiri without Sharingan is baseless. All Kakashi needs to do to not get tunnel vision is not Shunshin at speeds that were paralleling 6th gate Gai's speed. If he runs at his regular speed, which is still faster than hers, he won't get tunnel vision as Rasengan and kunai users don't get tunnel vision.

Kakashi running at speeds rivaling Gai's is completely baseless, actually.

1. In base, Gai has a speed statistic of 5/5, while Kakashi has a 4.5/5.

2. Neither Gai nor Kakashi were running at his full speed when they ran side by side, and Gai actually was in the process of activating the 6th Gate while Kakashi already had Raikiri activated.

Also, I never once said that Kakashi can't use raikiri without the sharingan.

Tsunade has never shown a single elemental jutsu in the entire manga, so I have no idea where you're getting that she has a Raiton affinity. The closest thing to a Raiton she's used is her nerve scrambling technique which isn't classified as a Raiton. That is nowhere near enough to magically assume she can diffuse electric attacks from the likes of a top tier Raiton user. She doesn't get to magically get Sasuke's Raiton diffusion techniques.

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I guess you're just going to argue against both the manga and the databook if you continue to argue this point. It even says that she has the raiton affinity.

Kakashi has full knowledge here and he has seen Byakugo in action courtesy of Sakura. Kakashi will aim for her head, and she has absolutely no feats to suggest she can regrow her head. She wasn't able to regrow her legs, and Madara with Hashirama's regen technique (which he directly compared to Byakugo) was unable to regroew his arm.

And Tsunade's just gonna stand there and let herself get hit? She just won't move? She's already intercepted Madara's katon, which means that she has enough speed to side step it, and there are no feats suggesting that a raikiri kunai moves at high speeds.

She cannot punch lightning infused kunai away. Your link is of Kabuto throwing a kunai from a building between Tsunade and Orochimaru; she never touched the kunai. And a normal kunai =/= Raikiri infused kunai.

Lol, what? Have no clue why you linked that backwards example here, but Tsunade's already intercept and punched through Madara's katon, which again, means that she can sidestep it by virtue of having to cover less distance than she did in the scan I posted. Unless you can link me to some super speed feat from the raikiri kunai, I see no reason why she can't even evade it, or have it pierce her torso instead of a more vulnerable area.

Tsunade punches the ground, and Kakashi casually dodges. She isn't fast enough to hit him, and her strikes aren't exactly inconspicuous. Part I Kabuto and sick Orochimaru dodged her "punch the ground" strategy. Tsunade punches the ground, sends rubble all over the place, and Kakashi uses that as cover to camp underground and send a Raiton clone in his place.

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, and was rapidly punching through fire dragon projectiles.

Tsunade has no choice but to try and engage in CQC since she has absolutely no ranged techniques.The Raiton clone will humor her for a while, and when she finally lands a hit on it she will be electrified, allow the real Kakashi to nail her with a Raikiri to the skull. She will be incapacitated when this happens, so she will be unable to punch away anything.

Good lord...

Heightened senses that didn't do a thing for her against Madara.

As if senses were a factor in that circumstance? Zero, absolutely zero relevance in regards to my point.

Again, Kakashi has fooled Dojutsu users with his Dotons; people who wield the Sharingan and Rinnegan. Absolutely nothing suggests that the person who has fallen for Bunshin trickery before will somehow recognize a Bunshin trick from one of the best Bunshin tricksters in the manga.

Where has Tsunade ever fallen for a bunshin before? Also, a rusty Tsunade already reacted to Hiding Like a Mole from Kabuto.

Still see nothing that suggests this.

Tsunade falls for Bunshin feints as proven in canon, and regeneration has been proven to have its limits in the manga. Kakashi has seen what Byakugo can do with his own eyes, and will go for more lethal head shots rather than chest shots with that knowledge.

Most of your argument is based on asssumptions that Tsunade can be incapacitated by raiton kage bunshins, when she clearly cannot by virtue of having the lightning release. That Tsunade is some slow wimp that can't react to fast attacks. That Kakashi is somehow as fast as 6th Gate Guy.

You ignored my points about Tsunade being able to counter bunshins and hiding like a mole as well, which is a part of your strategy.

Still, all I'm seeing here is fanfic.

 

[Black Wolf]

Again... a rusty Tsunade that hadn't fought in 20 years. Don't see the relevance of that Madara point, since she wouldn't have blitzed him without having Byakugou activated, which she did.

False.

Databook 3 was published ~chapter 400, well after the time skip. Tsunade was still given a 3.5.

Kakashi running at speeds rivaling Gai's is completely baseless, actually.

1. In base, Gai has a speed statistic of 5/5, while Kakashi has a 4.5/5.

Kakashi uses Shunshin when using Raikiri - that is why he gets tunnel vision. Shunshin is a ninjutsu that amplifies speed. It isn't reflected in the speed stat.

Also, I never once said that Kakashi can't use raikiri without the sharingan.

You pretty much said it is unusable, thus the "can be countered."

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I guess you're just going to argue against both the manga and the databook if you continue to argue this point. It even says that she has the raiton affinity.

. . . which outright says on the bottom :

"Despite Tsunade converting chakra into electricity, it is not completely clear whether or not this technique involves Lightning Release because of how the databook entry phrases the technique's description. "

And Tsunade's just gonna stand there and let herself get hit? She just won't move? She's already intercepted Madara's katon, which means that she has enough speed to side step it, and there are no feats suggesting that a raikiri kunai moves at high speeds.

She cannot move if she is incapacitated by a Raiton Kage Bunshin's electric shock.

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, and was rapidly punching through fire dragon projectiles.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with her ability to react to Raiton infused weaponry, which cuts. You can't punch away something that is sharp; it will cut right through her.

As if senses were a factor in that circumstance? Zero, absolutely zero relevance in regards to my point.

Tsunade falls for a Kage Bunshin feint in the manga.

I use that feat to suggest she will fall for a Kage Bunshin feint here from someone who has a proven track record in Kage Bunshin tricks.

You say it has zero relevance to your point? How?

Where has Tsunade ever fallen for a bunshin before? Also, a rusty Tsunade already reacted to Hiding Like a Mole from Kabuto.

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If that was a Raiton clone, it would have sent a current of electricity over her. That was a Mokuton clone.

Most of your argument is based on asssumptions that Tsunade can be incapacitated by raiton kage bunshins, when she clearly cannot by virtue of having the lightning release. That Tsunade is some slow wimp that can't react to fast attacks. That Kakashi is somehow as fast as 6th Gate Guy.

Points you need to understand:

1. She has never used a real Raiton; only a medical jutsu that employs minimal electricity. This isn't comparable to real Raiton.

2. Having Raiton =/= an affinity for it. Databook 4 lists Tsunade as possessing Raiton, but that doesn't make it her affinity. Databook 4 says Kakashi has every single element, including Yin and Yang, yet that doesn't make them all his affinity; his only "affinity" is Raiton (his natural element). We have no idea what Tsunade's affinity is; it's never been discussed. The only people whose affinities have been discussed are Kakashi's (Raiton), Naruto's (Futon), Sasuke's (Raiton), and Asuma's (Futon).

3. Having Raiton =/= immunity to Raiton. Killer Bee got shocked by Chidori and he has shown actual Raiton techniques.

4. I said Kakashi kept up with 6th Gate Guy when performing a Raikiri charge, which clearly employs Shunshin and is above is regular 4.5 in speed. I did not say that the Kakashi in this thread can run at that speed, since he lacks the Sharingan.

I was pointing out that Raikiri is still usable without tunnel vision as long as Kakashi avoids using that level of speed when using the technique. That is all.

You ignored my points about Tsunade being able to counter bunshins and hiding like a mole as well, which is a part of your strategy.

I quoted your entire post; there is nothing to suggest she can "sense" Kakashi hiding underground when Dojutsu users couldn't. Nagato even had sensory abilities, yet he didn't notice Kakashi hiding below. There is absolutely nothing that suggests Tsunade can.

Still, all I'm seeing here is fanfic.

Classy of you to turn a debate into mockery.

I've said all I wanted to say. Literally everything I have regarding this topic has already been posted, so I have nothing more to add after this.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

I've said all I wanted to say. Literally everything I have regarding this topic has already been posted, so I have nothing more to add after this.

Great, I wasn't going to respond anyway, this makes it easier.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Kakashi cannot beat tsuande or any kage for the matter without sharigan... Kamoi etc

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Yeah and what damage did her hit delivered Madara ? I remember Lee cutting Madara in half with pure taijutsu, all Tsunade did was pushing Madara back after he blocked Tsunade's hit.

Never she did damage. Just that she was able to land a hit on a charging Madara.

Katsuyu's liquid body structure makes her weak against lightning attacks. You can't put A, B, C logic on this.

That's the lamest reasoning I have ever seen on this site. Was she liquid when pain destroyed the village? No.

And do you even how big Katsuyu is compared to Kakashi? That attack is way too tiny to do anything.

Great, I wasn't going to respond anyway, this makes it easier.

Lmao the databook says base Gai>Kakashi in speed. Yet this guy is saying he is on par with 6th gated Gai. Lol

 

[Black Wolf]

Alpha Mandingo, another person taking a shot at me for providing adequate reasoning against their argument. Rather than post anything of worth or civilly counter my points, they send me a negative reputation and call me "Retarded."

Continue to prove your ineptness in any form of debating.

Lmao the databook says base Gai>Kakashi in speed. Yet this guy is saying he is on par with 6th gated Gai. Lol

Perhaps you are unable to read, or choose to feign ignorance.

I stated that Kakashi uses Shunshin to keep up with gated Gai's speed. Shunshin is classified in the databook as ninjutsu. It is not included in the speed statistic. Kakashi getting tunnel vision from Raikiri points to him using speed above his regular movement speed.

EDIT:

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It isn't letting me link to another forum, but the databook page is above, and this is the translation for it (copied and pasted from the other forum). On the top right of the databook page, you can clearly see Kakashi listed as a user.

Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al

A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!

Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Shunshin is far inferior lesser boost compared to the gates. It's not even funny. Kakashi was massively slow in the Pain arc, remember the 5 seconds?

 

[Black Wolf]

Shunshin is far inferior lesser boost compared to the gates. It's not even funny.

Tell that to V2 Raikage dodging Amaterasu at close range with Shunshin alone. Tell that to the databook entry comparing it to teleportation.

Kakashi was massively slow in the Pain arc, remember the 5 seconds?

Pain isn't an immobile target; he isn't going to stand there and let Kakashi bum-rush him. He possesses a Dojutsu user superior to the Sharingan, likely with the same precognitive effects, and was likely fully capable of enhanced speed just like Kakashi was.

Overall, Kakashi has a 5 in ninjutsu and is known worldwide for ninjutsu mastery, thus using a ninjutsu adequately is not beyond him. Again, there is a reason Kakashi gets tunnel vision when he uses Raikiri; he is moving far faster than usual, so fast that he gets tunnel vision. The 4.5 in the databook is his actual movement speed, disregarding Shunshin usage, which is a ninjutsu.

And it doesn't change the faulty argument you initially made, either.

 

[FemmeFatale]

LMaooooo people are really saying Kakashi,

Tsunade arms movements generate forces greater than his existence.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Tell that to V2 Raikage dodging Amaterasu at close range with Shunshin alone.

Kakashi has a 5 in ninjutsu and is known worldwide for ninjutsu mastery, thus using a ninjutsu adequately is not beyond him. Again, there is a reason Kakashi gets tunnel vision when he uses Raikiri; he is moving far faster than usual, so fast that he gets tunnel vision. The 4.5 in the databook is his actual movement speed, disregarding Shunshin usage, which is a ninjutsu.

And it doesn't change the faulty argument you initially made, either.

The 6th gate's speed is more impressive than the Raikage's. Burning the air at super sonic speeds and all.

And again, Kakashi's speed was utter shit in the Pain arc. Lol 5 seconds...

 

[Black Wolf]

The 6th gate's speed is more impressive than the Raikage's. Burning the air at super sonic speeds and all.

Gai's striking speed burns the air, not his movement speed. Distinguish the two.

Only in 7th gate does Gai's speed eclipse the Raikage's V2 Shunshin.

And again, Kakashi's speed was utter shit in the Pain arc. Lol 5 seconds...

Pain isn't an immobile target for five seconds; he is fully capable of movement and isn't going to stand there and let Kakashi bum-rush him. He possesses a Dojutsu superior to the Sharingan (the Rinnegan), likely with the same precognitive effects, and was likely fully capable of enhanced speed just like Kakashi was. You are assuming that Kakashi is the only one capable of enhancing his speed in such a manner; he isn't, as the Raikage and many others have proven.

You're just trying to save face at this point, and you're not doing too well at it. Every one of your lack-luster arguments has been shut down, and you continue to come back with an argument even weaker than the previous one in attempt to get the last word in.

 

[ATD]

Great, I wasn't going to respond anyway, this makes it easier.

This is weak.
He countered all you arguments well and you leave because you know that he is right.
Black wolf conducts a straight debate instead of the members who argue against him.
While he arguments completely factually the other members poison the debate with their mocking expressions.

 

[Team7monaa]

Katsuyu's acid was only shown once, and the one time it was it was casually dodged by Manda while he was being harassed by Gamabunta as well.

Of course Tsunade can easily outlast him, but the fight will never come down to that. She gets stunned by a Raiton Kage Bunshin or Raiton: Raiju Tsuiga, and then the real Kakashi reveals himself from underground and bisects her / impales her head, and she isn't regenerating from that.

Tsunade reacted to the likes of Madara's Katon I'm pretty sure she's not going to get fooled by a simple Bunshin:

Spoiler

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and seeing your brung DB into one of your posts Tsunade has a 5 for Intelligence.
And if her apprentice was able to find Kakashi underground what stops her teacher:

Spoiler

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[ATD]

Tsunade reacted to the likes of Madara's Katon I'm pretty sure she's not going to get fooled by a simple Bunshin:

Spoiler

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and seeing your brung DB into one of your posts Tsunade has a 5 for Intelligence.

The only reason tsunade was the only one who reacted to the attack is because all others were completely drained out, tsunade posses very much stamina, but she isn't faster than Raikage or meis
hand seal speed or why did you underline the raikage and mei ?

She was fooled by a wood clone even though she had a 5 in intelligence. The result was this :

Spoiler

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Itachi has a 5 in intelligence, too, but he also got fooled by a kage bunshin feint of Kakashi.

And if her apprentice was able to find Kakashi underground what stops her teacher:

Spoiler

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This was the bell test, where Kakashi was testing his students, not going against them with killing intent.
Normally Kakashi is able to move notable fast when he is underground.

Spoiler

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[Raykyryn]

If I only happened to see a good argument how Tsunade wins

 

[Zexion~]

Lml what is this?

Part one Kakashi could potentially win

Hokage Kakashi solos with medium difficulty

Anyone with good CQC can beat Tsunade.

 

[TheEvilOne]

Tsunade dominates the battle. The only thing Kakashi has over her is his speed, but that alone isn't enough to take down the former Hokage.

 

[Zexion~]

Tsunade dominates the battle. The only thing Kakashi has over her is his speed, but that alone isn't enough to take down the former Hokage.

How does she compete with pure speed?

Kakashi raikiri's her head off

 

[TheEvilOne]

Tsunade can sidestep from Kakashi's attacks. She reacted to faster ninjas than Kakashi before, for example Madara and Ay.