Arizona Passes New Law Feb 2014
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Jin Hayami
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Jazzy Stardust
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Gingka Uzumaki
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Lol, what if you're not even a Christian but you just lie?
(Eh I don't want this guy to be here.)
"Hey, I'm a Christian, get outta here we don't like your kind."
(Eh I don't want this guy to be here.)
"Hey, I'm a Christian, get outta here we don't like your kind."
I guess it's no big deal since no one is forced to deny or accept certain customers, but I can understand where people are coming from if some are offended. I kinda don't see the point of this law or the big difference it makes, basically means that you're allowed to be a deny a customer for their sexuality. It just feels like a law that offends gay/lesbians..
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It's not like everyone is openly gay, or feminine/masculine. So in that aspect, it's kinda stupid to even implement it, because it could easily fail its intended purpose. It's basically for the ones who are "obviously gay". Then there's the ones who have friends that are gay, and could potentially boycott the business.
It's kind of a fail.
Edit: And I can foresee some potential lawsuits from this, I wouldn't be surprised if they turned away customers that they thought was gay, but actually wasn't. Sometimes, even "straight" men can make you wonder.
The victim will probably yell, "It was a traumatizing experience, my son was with me, and they were accusing me of being a homosexual, it was detrimental to my character bla bla bla"
There may be something in the law that covers this though, don't know. The law itself still doesn't make much sense to me.
It's kind of a fail.
Edit: And I can foresee some potential lawsuits from this, I wouldn't be surprised if they turned away customers that they thought was gay, but actually wasn't. Sometimes, even "straight" men can make you wonder.
The victim will probably yell, "It was a traumatizing experience, my son was with me, and they were accusing me of being a homosexual, it was detrimental to my character bla bla bla"
There may be something in the law that covers this though, don't know. The law itself still doesn't make much sense to me.
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Thinking on it a bit more, this law is extremely stupid.
I mean sure, free speech, you don't have to serve people you don't want to serve, but it's absolutely horrible for business. No one wants to be known as the business that denies LGBT customers, and if you are, then some straight people will stop coming as well and you might get protests.
Just seems like a business killer. Sure, exercise your rights, but don't go complaining when you're out of business.
I mean sure, free speech, you don't have to serve people you don't want to serve, but it's absolutely horrible for business. No one wants to be known as the business that denies LGBT customers, and if you are, then some straight people will stop coming as well and you might get protests.
Just seems like a business killer. Sure, exercise your rights, but don't go complaining when you're out of business.
Opinions are always acceptable, no matter how ridiculous or cruel they may be. However, this law isn't opinion, it's morally wrong in itself. If you dislike a homosexual lifestyle, so be it, but to treat them like they are beneath you? To refuse service to a human based on their gender preference is seriously messed up.
Your opinion on morality is irrelevant.
You walk into a store. You want a cake made for your wedding.
I tell you: "I'm sorry, but you want a satanic-themed wedding cake. I am not going to do that."
You tell me: "Oh, yes you are! I'm gonna sue you!"
Me: "Okay, fine. I'll make your cake out of horse semen."
"What?"
"I mean Icing."
"Yay!"
A business has the right to refuse service to any individual for any reason, no matter how petty.
There are clubs where I can be told to leave for not wearing a suit and tie. That is their prerogative. There are places of business where I am not allowed to go unless I am a female - or places where I am not welcome unless I am homosexual (and others where I am heterosexual).
If a business around here decides it's not going to serve blacks, I will take my business elsewhere, or put a big sign up that says: "Colorblind: all are welcome" outside of my own business.
I can only see how your logic would flow within prostitution.
"Uh... Sorry, I'm not into guys."
"You will service me, or I will sue you!"
The government is, at best, a necessary evil and should be kept out of anything and everything possible.
All people should be treated equally.
Most major religions practise a degree of tolerance to other belief systems and that is why this law should be condemned.
This is pure segregation and what does that cause? Conflict and war.
Shame on that degenerate state and its bigots.
Most major religions practise a degree of tolerance to other belief systems and that is why this law should be condemned.
This is pure segregation and what does that cause? Conflict and war.
Shame on that degenerate state and its bigots.
Should be.
It should be condemned? Please, justify that.
I'd love to see where you came up with that.
Segregation has not once caused conflict or war. What causes conflict and war is when one group feels forced by another group.
"Aim, the civil rights movement!"
caused the conflict. Blacks in the 'deep south' had long been living alongside whites relatively peacefully. Whites had to learn to accept the business and trade expertise of the blacks to do business. It wasn't until the blacks migrated into the 'enlightened' northern areas that conflict arose. Blacks would come in and under-bid the white unions.
If you have any experience with unions, you know how they respond to people coming in and taking away 'their' work in 'their' territory. Labor unions are little more than gangs. They demand protection money from businesses they work for, and they intimidate (even murder) competition.
That's where much of the Civil Rights movement came from. Politicians capitalized upon the scenario, and decided it was a good idea to forcibly integrate schools. Having your friends ripped away to be replaced by some kids from another school district wouldn't make you feel like you were under assault, at all.
If a business doesn't want to do business with you - it is in your best interest to take your business elsewhere.
I say this after working in a restaurant for the better part of eight years. You want to threaten a lawsuit in order to be served? You'll be served - that questionable steak, yesterday's potatoes, and the toast that was forgotten about under the broiler. Then you'll be charged for each refill, the crackers you assumed were complementary, and the dressing on your salad.
In less dignified establishments, God only knows what you'd get.
So, you should be able to walk into any place of business and demand service under threat of lawsuit?
What gives you the right?
Jazzy Stardust
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I can't believe people are actually using the "it's your business you can do what you want" bullshit excuse. That's terrible logic and that same logic is the mindset that helps spread segregation and hate. With that logic Jim Crow laws were ethical right? Because I'm selling something I shouldn't have to sell it to a black person if I don't want to right? Wrong.
No religious text spreads hate, so if you're truly following your religious script you should know to spread happiness and love, not hate. Religions may disagree with a lifestyle but your not suppose to condemn them. Hence the whole, "Throwing stones" story every religious person is familiar with. So to use a religion as an excuse not to let someone into you're business is contradicting.
Not only that but businesses are for the people. When you open a business you are putting out a service for the community to use and for you to make money from. You're making money off of the community. So to segregate the community by anything is not only taking freedom from the person you're condemning but you're also screwing your business and putting out a bad rep for your business. Further more its a bad business model, who cares who is giving you money? That has to be the stupidest thing ever, it's not like if you let a gay person or couple into your business they'll start having buttsex or whip out a dildo from their back pocket.
So that's a terrible excuse, I'm sick of this freedom to do what I want bullshit. When you're "freedom" is making life just a bit more difficult for someone else you're taking a freedom from them. I'm not gay but freedom is pointless if you're not going to use it right. It's just a silly ideal to think you can do whatever you want in a society where we have to coexist.
No religious text spreads hate, so if you're truly following your religious script you should know to spread happiness and love, not hate. Religions may disagree with a lifestyle but your not suppose to condemn them. Hence the whole, "Throwing stones" story every religious person is familiar with. So to use a religion as an excuse not to let someone into you're business is contradicting.
Not only that but businesses are for the people. When you open a business you are putting out a service for the community to use and for you to make money from. You're making money off of the community. So to segregate the community by anything is not only taking freedom from the person you're condemning but you're also screwing your business and putting out a bad rep for your business. Further more its a bad business model, who cares who is giving you money? That has to be the stupidest thing ever, it's not like if you let a gay person or couple into your business they'll start having buttsex or whip out a dildo from their back pocket.
So that's a terrible excuse, I'm sick of this freedom to do what I want bullshit. When you're "freedom" is making life just a bit more difficult for someone else you're taking a freedom from them. I'm not gay but freedom is pointless if you're not going to use it right. It's just a silly ideal to think you can do whatever you want in a society where we have to coexist.
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So, what you are saying is that you own another person's business. Or, rather, the government owns the business.
That makes you a fascist.
It doesn't really matter what their pretext is. If someone does not wish to do business with you, they do not have to do business with you.
You own a Ford dealership and I attempt to sell you my Toyota. You tell me that you don't do business with Toyota, and will not accept my business. I slap you with a lawsuit.
I am a vegetarian and I walk into your steakhouse. You inform me that you have no vegetarian meals, and I tell you to make one or swallow a lawsuit.
You are a doctor and I walk into your establishment and ask you to perform an abortion. You say that you do not believe in abortions and will not be responsible for what you consider to be murder. I slap you with a lawsuit and demand you give me an abortion.
The government does not have the power to tell you what your business will and will not do. Nor should it ever.
You act as if the community would have money or productivity without businesses.
Businesses are created as a means of exchanging goods, services, and information. Those goods, services, and information make up the productivity of the community.
Groups of people without businesses are simply a collection of flesh and bone with no value whatsoever.
Business only adds to the community, it does not strip away from it. It owes nothing to the community, society, or the government - as it is business that allows such things to exist in the first place.
You're ideologically identical to Hitler, to be bluntly honest. The Socialist Worker's Party of Germany that embraced Fascist ideologies and became the Nazi party. Learn from history, or repeat it.
Freedom is freedom.
If I get to walk into your business and demand your service and compliance - then you are not free.
Government does not exist to make things "Fair." Government exists to make things function. It sets standards for trade and commerce, provides for protection from predators, and a means of legal recourse. In many cases - even the government is unnecessary for those tasks (third party private institutions have performed those for generations across governments and in the absence of government authority).
If you think you have the right to walk in and tell me how I will expend my labor and knowledge, then you have a twisted concept of rights.
If something is a poor business model - then the business will suffer because of it. There is no action necessary by the government. For every person declined service there is another person in the market for a competing business.
Would I ever exclude people from my place of business or support a business I know to be doing such? No.
But it is more important that a black business owner have the liberty of declining my Native-German-American self a business transaction in his store - than it is for me to be able to threaten him with a lawsuit for saying "you're not welcome here."
I've been to countries where I've been told that "round eye" were not welcome. That's the way it is. We spent a few hundred dollars at the restaurant across the road on beverages with a killer profit margin and conversed quite a bit (it's amazing what you can get across language barriers) with the owners who were more than happy to put up with us.
There was a demand for Korean-only clubs, and there was a demand for American-friendly business. Both were properly satisfied with no threat of legal action or laws that give me a sense of entitlement.
If people don't want to serve you - so be it. Find some place else and let that place of business prosper as you tell people about how rude the other business was to you.
Americans have started down a dangerous line of reasoning.
We've started to pay more attention to how we think others should behave rather than paying attention to our own behavior. This is how the rest of the world behaves, and it is why they begin killing each other over petty differences. "Racism" in America required such stark differences as "African" versus "Caucasian" descent to form any kind of racial divide in this country. France, Germany, Poland, Ireland, Britain - all of them are one "race" under American politics - but it wasn't long ago that Europe was busy killing itself based on the racial distinctions that have come to define nations.
The Balkans have also routinely attempted to purge each other from existence, even though most of the world has difficulty distinguishing the difference between Serbian, Czechnian, and Croatian populations.
When you become so focused on the behavior and transgressions of others that you neglect to realize your own behavior... you'll become a compliant participant in genocide before you realize what happened.
Part of freedom is being tolerant of social or moral ignorance. Using the government and threat of force to champion your self-righteousness will soon become a double-edged sword that comes full circle. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Jazzy Stardust
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@Aim64C:You missed the entire point I made. -_______-
If you really think "freedom" is the right to discriminate against someone so far as to deny them civil rights and freedoms, then you're are the one with the hitler ideals, thats completely contradicting to the idea of being free. Being free to conflict others freedoms is stupidity, I can't believe I have to spell this out for you.
Not to mention the whole idea of a business in a community is to coexist for the economy of the community to flourish. This is completely contradicting to that whole aspect of community, and to use religion as an excuse does matter. Its extremely contradicting to what any script of any religion says as I stated. They aren't suppose promote hate, its contradicting to the whole aspect of religious belief. And to use that as an excuse is another sign of stupidity.
There's so many contradictions in this stupid law and to your post, I really wish I didn't just waste my time reading that wall of text. It's called summarizing geez, I'm not reading another wall of something that serves no purpose other than for the sake of arguing.
If you really think "freedom" is the right to discriminate against someone so far as to deny them civil rights and freedoms, then you're are the one with the hitler ideals, thats completely contradicting to the idea of being free. Being free to conflict others freedoms is stupidity, I can't believe I have to spell this out for you.
Not to mention the whole idea of a business in a community is to coexist for the economy of the community to flourish. This is completely contradicting to that whole aspect of community, and to use religion as an excuse does matter. Its extremely contradicting to what any script of any religion says as I stated. They aren't suppose promote hate, its contradicting to the whole aspect of religious belief. And to use that as an excuse is another sign of stupidity.
There's so many contradictions in this stupid law and to your post, I really wish I didn't just waste my time reading that wall of text. It's called summarizing geez, I'm not reading another wall of something that serves no purpose other than for the sake of arguing.
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Do you really think that I failed to consider your perspective?
You do not have 'civil rights.' You have individual rights.
You have the right to exchange your goods, services, and knowledge with the people and institutions you choose. You do not have a right to force others to do business with you.
You may or may not agree with my right to discriminate with whom I do business - but you have no right to force me to do otherwise. Just as I have no right to force you to discriminate along the same lines as I would.
Irrelevant.
A business has the right to make its own decisions. If those decisions are not beneficial to the community and the economy - then the business will suffer per market dynamics.
So be it.
I warned you of the path you walk. It is the path of good intentions guided by expedience and convenience.
On the other end of those laws is a law enforcement officer. Failure to comply with the law enforcement officer ultimately leads to death. Each and every law written comes with a death penalty if it is not followed.
What you believe to be a 'right' is a simple form of oppression. "Give me the service I declare myself entitled to, or have a gang of law enforcement officers insist you are no longer able to conduct business. Failure to comply will result in arms being drawn against you."
What you promote is thuggery, no matter how well-intentioned it may be. You empower a select group of people to dictate how business is to be done under threat of force, and expect that the power will remain in line with your self-righteous and benevolent intentions.
Just look at the FDA, EPA, CIA, FBI, and NSA for examples of good intentions guided by expedience and convenience. Some of the most corrupt and vile institutions on the face of this planet have been constructed under the guise of good intentions and moral conviction.
Just keep your fascist ideals out of my state, out of my business, and out of my home. I don't care what you do in your state - that's your prerogative, but you will keep it out of mine, or I will meet your force with force.
Jazzy Stardust
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@Aim64C: We'll just have to agree to disagree then, you go ahead and promote your jim crow ideals. Just keep them out of my town, my state, and business. Call CNN if you want to talk to someone like minded.
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