On what tier would you put Haku and Zabuza?

[Byakusharinnegan]

I had just been wondering, how powerful do you reckon Haku and Zabuza wereindividually overall at the time of their death, and who do you think is the most powerful two-man team they can beat together?

 

[The Necromancer]

They're about mid-high Jonin level. I doubt they could beat any real 2 man team.

 

[Xēnovia.]

Haiku is a high tier jonin
Same goes for zabuza

 

[-Spoiler-]

both high jounin

 

[Drakengard]

I'd personally put Zabuza at high Jounin and Haku at high Chunin (MAYBE low Jounin). Zabuza should be able to win against some "elite Jounin" and would surely put up a fight against the higher ranks of different villages. Haku's foot speed and single hand weaving were devalued (P1 syndrome), leaving his intelligence, acupuncture, and ice release. He'd get owned by somebody like Kakashi but nonetheless can still be considered a threat.

If you ask me Kishi didn't plan on making the tiers between Naruto/Sasuke/Haku etc. and Kakashi/Zabuza/etc. THAT huge in the past. Surely large gaps but I feel that natural development of the plot requiring constant upgrades for the K12 made it bigger. Sasuke went from getting owned by a single Zabuza water clone to stomping several of them neg. difficulty. Haku in particular was said to be stronger than Zabuza by his own words if I remember right though I can't see it unless Haku was holding back more than believed.

Against popular opinion? inb4daflame

 

[OWanime]

both high jounin; zabuza even said haku was a deadly kid; he had the swift killing of an anbu and held back a ton or he could've just killed both naruto and sasuke and then helped zabuza xd

 

[Arian]

id say around s criminal. they would have made great akatsuki member imo. especially zabuza that is since haku was still too young...

 

[Penguin]

Haku is low-mid jounin, where as Zabuza was high jounin.

 

[Bantos]

Zabuza is mid-jonin while Haku is low jonin.

 

[Takos]

Zabuza would be high jonin to low kage, but I'm more leaning towards low kage option. This guy is underrated greatly.
Haku would be somewhere between high chuunin and low jonin, with the low jonin edge. The only reason he didn't rape Naruto and Sasuke was because of him going easy on them.

 

[paratise]

Mid-High jounin for Zabuza
Low jounin for Haku

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

Zabuza is on the same tier as PTS Kakashi, PTS Kabuto, Darui & Kitsuchi.

Haku was on i'd say the same tier as Naruto and Sasuke at the end of part 1.

 

[Takos]

Zabuza is on the same tier as PTS Kakashi, PTS Kabuto, Darui & Kitsuchi.

I don't know where the notion about Darui and Kitsuchi being on PTS Kakashi's level comes from, but for Kabuto, it's simply not true.
Yes, he was hyped to be that strong, but the fact of the matter is Kabuto with a hostage was stomped by non-Sharingan Kakashi.
His only achievement was running the f**k away from him.
Manga facts > hype in case they contradict.

Insult Hanzo,
Kabuto or Obito and I shall
attack.

Oh no, I might have just awakened the devil. xd

Also, Zabuza was not on Kakashi's level, too.
Kakashi himself stated that he had underestimated Zabuza, that's the reason he landed in the Water Prison (which, mind me, would only allow Zabuza to kill Tazuna without resistance, to kill Kakashi he'd need to release him). Following this statement, Zabuza began to take a harsh beating from Kakashi, both in the forest and later on the bridge.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

I don't know where the notion about Darui and Kitsuchi being on PTS Kakashi's level comes from, but for Kabuto, it's simply not true.
Yes, he was hyped to be that strong, but the fact of the matter is Kabuto with a hostage was stomped by non-Sharingan Kakashi.
His only achievement was running the f**k away from him.
Manga facts > hype in case they contradict.


Oh no, I might have just awakened the devil. xd

Also, Zabuza was not on Kakashi's level, too.
Kakashi himself stated that he had underestimated Zabuza, that's the reason he landed in the Water Prison (which, mind me, would only allow Zabuza to kill Tazuna without resistance, to kill Kakashi he'd need to release him). Following this statement, Zabuza began to take a harsh beating from Kakashi, both in the forest and later on the bridge.

Uh oh. He we go again.

Okay ask any member of this forum who does VS matches or tiers and they will tell you that PTS Kakashi is iconically paired with Zabuza, Darui, Kabuto, Kitsuchi and sometimes Guy. It's common knowledge that they are all classified as the same power level.

I've concluded this argument way too many times so i'll cut it short. Back in Part 1 Kishimoto made power levels crystal-clear and undebatable. The manga said about 2-3 times that Kakashi and Kabuto are on the same level. I see you're a Kakashi fan and that's cute but if the manga says something 3 different times from very reliable sources (Jiraiya, Orochimaru etc) then it's matter of fact. The way Jiraiya so nonchalantly says it implies that it's common knowledge, or really easy to deduce.

Kishimoto decided that. Even the chapter where they conflict there's no real clear indication of a winner. Kabuto flees (because he was on an assasination mission not a big battle on the enemies turf)....Kakashi sighs and is grateful the fight didn't happen. Kakashi is motivated by the danger of his pupil....Kabuto tells him to bring about 10 Anbu with him next time...THERE'S NO WINNER. And any debate that is had over it goes round in circles.

They are the same level and if you don't think so that's great but the manga disagrees with you.

 

[Takos]

Uh oh. He we go again.

Okay ask any member of this forum who does VS matches or tiers and they will tell you that PTS Kakashi is iconically paired with Zabuza, Darui, Kabuto, Kitsuchi and sometimes Guy. It's common knowledge that they are all classified as the same power level.

I've concluded this argument way too many times so i'll cut it short. Back in Part 1 Kishimoto made power levels crystal-clear and undebatable. The manga said about 2-3 times that Kakashi and Kabuto are on the same level. I see you're a Kakashi fan and that's cute but if the manga says something 3 different times from very reliable sources (Jiraiya, Orochimaru etc) then it's matter of fact. The way Jiraiya so nonchalantly says it implies that it's common knowledge, or really easy to deduce.

Kishimoto decided that. Even the chapter where they conflict there's no real clear indication of a winner. Kabuto flees (because he was on an assasination mission not a big battle on the enemies turf)....Kakashi sighs and is grateful the fight didn't happen. Kakashi is motivated by the danger of his pupil....Kabuto tells him to bring about 10 Anbu with him next time...THERE'S NO WINNER. And any debate that is had over it goes round in circles.

They are the same level and if you don't think so that's great but the manga disagrees with you.

All I see is you claiming something was true because it was hyped to be so. If that's the case then I guess no genjutsu, taijutsu or ninjutsu works against Sharingan, which was hyped to be able to defeat all of them. And I guess Jirayia solos whole Akatsuki because Itachi said that even with more help from the organization they'd stil lose against Jirayia.

I will say it once again, facts > hype.
Kabuto had advantage in the form of a hostage, yet he was still forced to escape while Kakashi didn't even use Sharingan. Kabuto was trying to act tough but he was visibly sweating when he saw Kakashi.
What does killing a few ANBU have to do with it? You're catching every argument you can find.

But well, I guess I'm contradicting manga facts because I don' believe in all hype blindly. Lol
Jirayia can compete against Madara then, he solos Akatsuki after all. Lol

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

All I see is you claiming something was true because it was hyped to be so. If that's the case then I guess no genjutsu, taijutsu or ninjutsu works against Sharingan, which was hyped to be able to defeat all of them. And I guess Jirayia solos whole Akatsuki because Itachi said that even with more help from the organization they'd stil lose against Jirayia.

I will say it once again, facts > hype.
Kabuto had advantage in the form of a hostage, yet he was still forced to escape while Kakashi didn't even use Sharingan. Kabuto was trying to act tough but he was visibly sweating when he saw Kakashi.
What does killing a few ANBU have to do with it? You're catching every argument you can find.

But well, I guess I'm contradicting manga facts because I don' believe in all hype blindly. Lol
Jirayia can compete against Madara then, he solos Akatsuki after all. Lol

If the writer states something 3 times then it's true. I don't need to make an argument because the writer did it for me. It's not hype, the author was clearly making a statement without having to pit Kabuto/Kakashi against one another and having them both die when it wouldn't have fit into the arc.

You're a Kakashi fanboy, me (biggest Kabuto fan on the base), the manga and everyone on the base knows they're evenly matched, stop being biased buddy.

 

[Takos]

If the writer states something 3 times then it's true. I don't need to make an argument because the writer did it for me. It's not hype, the author was clearly making a statement without having to pit Kabuto/Kakashi against one another and having them both die when it wouldn't have fit into the arc.

You're a Kakashi fanboy, me (biggest Kabuto fan on the base), the manga and everyone on the base knows they're evenly matched, stop being biased buddy.

First of all, this hype was only given twice, by Orochimaru and by Jirayia. Thus, your argument of something being true because it was repeated gets drastically weaker immediately.

It is fine to believe hype, but in this case in doing so you're dismissing what the mana has shown us.
So, let me handicap my own argument and say that the fight between them did not end in anyone's victory. Kakashi didn't even use Sharingan, so even with this assumption there are only two possible solutions:
1. Kakashi with Sharingan wins (since base Kakashi draws)
2. Sharingan Kakashi is equal to base Kakashi (which, I think, you'll agree with me is nonsense)

You can try as much as you want, but you won't escape the obvious consequences of base Kakashi drawing with Kabuto (I dunno since when forcing someone to escape neans a draw, but let's handicap my argument)

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

First of all, this hype was only given twice, by Orochimaru and by Jirayia. Thus, your argument of something being true because it was repeated gets drastically weaker immediately.

It is fine to believe hype, but in this case in doing so you're dismissing what the mana has shown us.
So, let me handicap my own argument and say that the fight between them did not end in anyone's victory. Kakashi didn't even use Sharingan, so even with this assumption there are only two possible solutions:
1. Kakashi with Sharingan wins (since base Kakashi draws)
2. Sharingan Kakashi is equal to base Kakashi (which, I think, you'll agree with me is nonsense)

You can try as much as you want, but you won't escape the obvious consequences of base Kakashi drawing with Kabuto (I dunno since when forcing someone to escape neans a draw, but let's handicap my argument)

Look up one of the previous threads where i've argued about this before if you're interested but I haven't got time for this today, if anything their encounter makes Kakashi look weaker but hey, you don't see me fanboying Kabuto > Kakashi.

Maybe you need to reread part 1 for a little Kakashi reality check- when Kakashi wasn't getting kicked around by Zabuza (first time) and Itachi or having his only wins against Sound fodder or Sasuke in the third episode (lol) he was pissing himself at the thought of fighting Kabuto or Orochimaru.

Kakashi is hardly the god you make him out to be.

 

[Xāvî1]

high Jonin leve

 

[Takos]

Look up one of the previous threads where i've argued about this before if you're interested but I haven't got time for this today, if anything their encounter makes Kakashi look weaker but hey, you don't see me fanboying Kabuto > Kakashi.

Maybe you need to reread part 1 for a little Kakashi reality check- when Kakashi wasn't getting kicked around by Zabuza (first time) and Itachi or having his only wins against Sound fodder or Sasuke in the third episode (lol) he was pissing himself at the thought of fighting Kabuto or Orochimaru.

Kakashi is hardly the god you make him out to be.

LMAO, Kakashi pissing himself in front of Kabuto? I think I gotta put it in my sig when I come home later.
It's good you've mentioned Itachi, because Kakashi was fending him off so effectively Itachi needed to resort to MS and retreat from the fight afterward. Guess you think Kabuto = base Itachi, then? Lol

Zabuza? You're seriously out of arguments, aren't you? Mind showing me any time Zabuza did something to Kakashi other than trapping him temporarily which wouldn't allow him to kill Kakashi anyway? Lol

But I remember you claiming Temari and Kankuro with intent to capture win against current Kakashi with intent to kill, so nothing will surprise me anymore on your part.
Keep deluding yourself, mate.