Hashirama vs Edo Madara + EMS Sasuke

KidGamer65

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@Kidgamer What is it equivalent to? Jiraiya, Naruto, and Kabuto - all of them have shown prep-time for SM. Kabuto hid away behind the spikes, whist he entered SM. The whole part where Sasuke and Itachi could see snakes all over the place is the point.

Jiraiya, Kabuto and Naruto are not Hashirama, prep time differs from user to user. Not to mention Naruto has very limited prep time for Sage Mode.
- - SM initiation.
- - SM initiation.
-

How are those any different than this - ? The manga illustrates the prep-time in that scan as well. The action is quickened in the one you showed me. In no way does it disregard what the author established earlier. The fact you are disregarding SM prep for Hashirama when it's clearly shown in the manga itself through all characters entering SM is mind-boggling.

You are trying to establish Hashirama's time for entering Sage Mode by giving me the times of other user's entering Sage Mode, which is flawed considering we are talking about Hashirama here, not Naruto, Kabuto or Jiraiya. As the manga shows, more chakra means you can enter Sage Mode faster, shown by when Naruto entered Sage Mode while in Bijuu Mode, he states its faster and we can clearly see its faster. [ ]

Like I already told you above, he clearly didn't start immediately gathering chakra the moment he clapped his hands together, it was from the moment he closed his eyes. I also posted a scan of him entering it a second or two as an Edo Zombie. We also can't forget the fact that SM needs absolutely stillness in order to be entered. You can't gather Nature Energy while you are moving even a little bit, which Hashirama was doing when talking to Madara.

Also Jiraiya wasn't gathering Nature energy, he was moving throughout that entire chapter.

There is no such thing as a second SM prep.

A second or two at the most? Yes there is and manga has shown it 3 times now. BSM Naruto once and Hashirama twice.
 

shelke

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@Kidgamer

Did I say that their time is comparable? I simply showed to you the initiation act, which is either clapping the hands together, clasping the hands and holding up fingers, or sitting in a meditative state. All this points clearly towards the fact that the individual is about to enter SM. This isn't even debatable.

What do you mean? Kabuto and Jiraiya were talking the whole time they entered SM. Kabuto attacked and even escaped behind the spikes. Jiraiya even initiated a barrier while he was still clapping his hands together.
-
- - The snakes are getting bigger because of Natural Energy Consumption.

Right, so please explain WHY Hashirama didn't decide to clap his hands later but did so so soon, because the whole thing was just so random and pointless according to you? And why compare BM Naruto to Base Hashirama? I highly doubt it is because of a large chakra supply, as the manga states no such thing - - other than syncing. Naruto was able to absorb Natural Energy faster because Kurama has synced both modes. Even if I am to take that into consideration, how are the two related?
 

pateuvasiliu

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Naruto and Hashirama both enter SM instantly.

What's this 15 second madness I hear of?
 

Champ

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Besides Shinsuusenju, Hashirama has nothing ot hurt Sasuke by then he'll be on fire
 

adeshina365

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Hashirama takes this for the time being; this won't be the case when Sasuke's powers further develop and he gains more of his inevitable upgrades (~10 chapters).
 

Icelerate

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Madara and Sasuke would win high difficulty.

With the power of Madara's perfect susanoo sword slashes, large gusts of wind are created which Sasuke can combine with his enton variants to strengthen them to a level which allows Sasuke to deal significant damage against Hashirama's wood techs.
 

KidGamer65

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@Kidgamer

Did I say that their time is comparable? I simply showed to you the initiation act, which is either clapping the hands together, clasping the hands and holding up fingers, or sitting in a meditative state. All this points clearly towards the fact that the individual is about to enter SM. This isn't even debatable.

All you showed is that there is indeed a time where they need to gather nature energy which I never denied. Hashirama's is clearly faster.

Why are you repeating this same stuff? Them clapping their hands doesn't mean they've begun gathering Nature Energy the moment they've done so. This doesn't contradict anything the manga has stated about Sage Mode. I have posted another scan that shows him entering Sage Mode in the same time frame as he did at VoTE. In 1-2 seconds so I'm not seeing why you are still trying to dispute this.

What do you mean? Kabuto and Jiraiya were talking the whole time they entered SM. Kabuto attacked and even escaped behind the spikes. Jiraiya even initiated a barrier while he was still clapping his hands together.
-
- - The snakes are getting bigger because of Natural Energy Consumption.

-Kabuto can passively absorb Nature Energy without being still, Jiraiya cant.


Jiraiya moved around multiple times, re-read that whole entire chapter and you'll see him move. , that's already fact...so he wasn't gathering Nature Energy.

Right, so please explain WHY Hashirama didn't decide to clap his hands later but did so so soon, because the whole thing was just so random and pointless according to you? And why compare BM Naruto to Base Hashirama? I highly doubt it is because of a large chakra supply, as the manga states no such thing - - other than syncing. Naruto was able to absorb Natural Energy faster because Kurama has synced both modes. Even if I am to take that into consideration, how are the two related?

The manga doesn't need to state something for it to be completely apparent.

-Base Naruto enters SM slower than BM Naruto.

-Meaning the more chakra you have, the shorter the time interval is for entering Sage Mode.

Where does the manga even state that the nature energy consumption speed has increased because both modes were synced? Unlike my point this point is completely unsupported by manga. Syncing both modes allows him to use SM and BM at the same time, that is what was stated.

-Naruto had more chakra so he absorbed Nature Energy faster.

-Hashirama has more chakra than anyone else who has used it thus far so he absorbs it much faster than they have.

@bold: There is another that show him entering Sage Mode in a much shorter time frame than him and Madara's whole entire conversation. That makes this point completely moot as it shows he wasn't gathering Nature Energy the moment his hands were clapped. Hashirama showed his focus when he clapped his hands and closed his eyes, that is when he started to gather his Nature Energy.

clearly isn't as large as the conversation, which you are using as the base of your assertion that Hashirama takes a longer time than I think to enter Sage Mode. This is the third time I'm posting this scan.
 

Transcendence

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Are people actually ascertaining the thought that Edo Madara has superior firepower to Prime Madara? Absurdity. Prime Madara has PS (Which Edo Madara has) and 100% Kurama that can spam Biju Dama on a whim and equipped with PS blades, has much more destructive power than what Edo Madara is capable of. Given this match-up, neither person on team 2 has the sufficient fire power to take down Shinsenjuu as neither of what they have is equivalent to what 12 Biju Dama PS blades conjured up. Tengai Shinsei is not even an argument given it wasn't even the size of Perfect Susano'o, and Shinsenjuu is multiple times larger than Perfect Susano'o itself. I'd still ascertain the thought that Team 2 could win, albeit extreme difficulty. Once Sasuke displays singular Susano'o feats without the coated Avatar (so essentially when they begin to fight Madara), then this fight will be of lesser difficulty for the Uchiha duo.
 

Unorthodox

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Madara solos hashirama cannot deal with edos.

OT. Sasuke & Madara wins. Enton like i said is mokuton worst nightmare but hashirama was afterall a the god of shinobi he loses extreme high diff
 

genii96

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-The map wasn't leveled at all, don't know where you got this from.

-Them feeling it as an earthquake doesn't change the fact that its weaker than PS by feats and by statements.

-Chojo Kebutsu created a giant crater which later became VoTE. Meteor caused an earthquake and Naruto's clone survived it with Dodai's help yet it has far more power than PS? You can't be serious with this nonsense.

Dodai protected a clone from that Meteor's impact, so you talking about how it made an earthquake doesn't mean anything here.



-Hashirama stands on its main body, its arms are higher up than he is. [ ]

-Madara's meteors are easily dealt with.



Since when has Enton even shown the burning ability to completely disable a structure as large and durable as Shinsuusenju before Chojo Kebutsu comes down on him? Oh wait.....never. It being wood is shitty reasoning for Enton burning it down before he can do anything about it.



It took him a second to enter Sage Mode and summon Shinsuusenju. I don't know where you are getting this 15 seconds from. He started from when he said "It can't be helped" and closed his eyes.

dodai and naruto along with every livig shinobi bar the 2 kages RAN AWAY from the meteor before it hit. Yet nearly all of them died,only very few were left alive after it hit,despite them all running away from the meteor AND the fact that one of them was lightened,so it wasnt even at full strength when it hit. Madara was at the direct site of the budha's hits,and didnt get killed despite the hits making vote. PS didnt kill a single kage when it swung it's sword,despite it destroying the mountains behind and the fact that the kages were directly in the path.
Also,not that it was the mere shockwave of the meteor that travelled several kilometers to the HQ,and it was it's shockwave that killed everyone including madara and muu,not even the meteor itself.wheras the shockwaves of both ps and the budha couldnt kill anyone there. What feat does ps have that makes it stronger?,getting stopped by wood hands?.

How is the meteor dealt with?,falling at that speed?,what is hashirama going to do when 2 meteors smash directly into him?catch them?,and being at the base will not help,the radius of damage of the meteors will still reach him easily.

That budha is a pile of wood,all sasuke has to do is simply fire several entons at it's leg and burn it,the entire thing will fall,that budha moves slowly,and sasuke's susanoo is very quick and can simply jump back and keep firing,or he could just aim at where hashirama is,and burn that area. The budha is not helping at all here.
 

DemonicAvenger

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In all honesty, If Sasuke's PS is on the same level as Madara's then Sasuke is able to stalemate Hashirama bar Shinsuusenju.
 

Touken

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In all honesty, If Sasuke's PS is on the same level as Madara's then Sasuke is able to stalemate Hashirama bar Shinsuusenju.
How? Base Hashirama >> EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi, SM Hashirama >>>> EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi.

Even with the additional firepower, Kurama, base Hashirama was still keeping up with Madara and on top of that, he was still trying to reason with him. That fight wouldn't have lasted 3 days if Hashirama realized from the start that Madara couldn't have been reasoned with.
 

KidGamer65

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dodai and naruto along with every livig shinobi bar the 2 kages RAN AWAY from the meteor before it hit. Yet nearly all of them died,only very few were left alive after it hit,despite them all running away from the meteor AND the fact that one of them was lightened,so it wasnt even at full strength when it hit. Madara was at the direct site of the budha's hits,and didnt get killed despite the hits making vote. PS didnt kill a single kage when it swung it's sword,despite it destroying the mountains behind and the fact that the kages were directly in the path.
Them running doesn't mean they weren't out of its AoE. If they were out of its AoE, then protecting Naruto's clone would have been completely unnecessary.

-Read the manga clearly. PS blocked them for him at the cost of it being destroyed. Obviously Madara isn't going to be hurt.

-Again, read the manga clearly. He didn't aim for them that time, otherwise the shockwave never would have cut the Mountains, it would have hit them. You can see them looking at the Mountain, outside of the main path PS cut. [ ] That Mountain cutting feat puts it far above the Meteor anyway.

Basically you are telling me that the Meteor is better than PS swordslashes based on flawed reasoning.


Also,not that it was the mere shockwave of the meteor that travelled several kilometers to the HQ,and it was it's shockwave that killed everyone including madara and muu,not even the meteor itself.wheras the shockwaves of both ps and the budha couldnt kill anyone there. What feat does ps have that makes it stronger?,getting stopped by wood hands?.
So, the shockwave killed people and failed to get past Dodai of all people's defenses and poof a Naruto clone...yet its stronger than PS.

-PS cut a Mountain, wasn't even aiming for the Gokage.

-Buddha broke PS, which tanked a Bijuu Dama, and is much more powerful than PS which is already stronger than the meteor.

From your post, Meteor's best feat is creating an earthquake and killing a few people who weren't even protected, while everyone who was protected survived.

How is the meteor dealt with?,falling at that speed?,what is hashirama going to do when 2 meteors smash directly into him?catch them?,and being at the base will not help,the radius of damage of the meteors will still reach him easily.
What speed? Onoki was able to fly up and intercept it with ease, don't bother bringing meteor speed wank into this.

-Buddha has more firepower, Buddha easily catches them or smacks them away. It doesn't help that it dwarfs both meteors.

You mean the damage Dodai and Naruto's clone survived? lmao. Get outta here. Lets not forget that Gaara survived it with a sand wall and Onoki was only critically injured.


Meteor is useless.

That budha is a pile of wood,all sasuke has to do is simply fire several entons at it's leg and burn it,the entire thing will fall,that budha moves slowly,and sasuke's susanoo is very quick and can simply jump back and keep firing,or he could just aim at where hashirama is,and burn that area. The budha is not helping at all here.

Are you still coming here with this extremely idiotic logic? All your post consists of is Buddha is wood so it gets burnt easily. If this is the best you can do don't bother replying. It couldn't even completely incinerate White Zetsu clones and you think it'll incinerate Buddha let alone incinerate it before it can do anything?

Buddha's hands extend across Mountain Ranges with ease, the moment its summoned it'll pound them into the ground. Sasuke's Susanoo isn't getting away, not with its speed feats.


How? Base Hashirama >> EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi, SM Hashirama >>>> EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi.

Even with the additional firepower, Kurama, base Hashirama was still keeping up with Madara and on top of that, he was still trying to reason with him. That fight wouldn't have lasted 3 days if Hashirama realized from the start that Madara couldn't have been reasoned with.

What DA said is correct. Base Hashirama is at the most equal to EMS Madara without Kurama. There is no way Base Hashirama is clearly stronger and especially not that much stronger than EMS Madara w/o Kurama when he has no way to disable Perfect Susanoo, but he can fight on par with it as shown in the manga.
 

Strict

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EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi is stronger than Base Hashirama.. Well, we saw Mokujin stalemating the perfect Susanoo for an unknown but relatively small period, that's about it. Mokujin and Base Hashirama's other techniques can't harm the perfect Susanoo, while latter still slices mountain ranges with one blow. Madara's PS could just take out his other sword and cut the Mokujin down with the other hand. Stalemating the PS is anything Base Hashirama could to for a bounded period.

Btw., Hashirama was in Sage Mode when using Mokujin against Madara's PS, and we know that Sage Mode enhances the power of all techniques.
 

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This is an interesting fight although MAdara and Hashirama are pretty much power vs power fighters. Madara would win eventually but I think Hashirama would last some time. Adding in SAsuke enton to combat mokuton is just a stomp.

Mokuton is the only reason Madara has such a hard time vs Hashirama

EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi is stronger than Base Hashirama.. Well, we saw Mokujin stalemating the perfect Susanoo for an unknown but relatively small period, that's about it. Mokujin and Base Hashirama's other techniques can't harm the perfect Susanoo, while latter still slices mountain ranges with one blow. Madara's PS could just take out his other sword and cut the Mokujin down with the other hand. Stalemating the PS is anything Base Hashirama could to for a bounded period.

Btw., Hashirama was in Sage Mode when using Mokujin against Madara's PS, and we know that Sage Mode enhances the power of all techniques.

@bold Right which is why Madara didn't use Kyuubi right? and won the fight :snick:
 

pateuvasiliu

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EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi is stronger than Base Hashirama..

Manga disagrees, since Base Hashirama has been withstanding Edo madara whom is clearly superior to EMS Madara w/o Kurama.
 

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Manga disagrees, since Base Hashirama has been withstanding Edo madara whom is clearly superior to EMS Madara w/o Kurama.
Manga disagrees? Base Hashirama wasn't withstanding Edo Madara, he had Sage Mode active. Also, Edo Madara's PS = EMS Madara's PS.
 

pateuvasiliu

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Manga disagrees? Base Hashirama wasn't withstanding Edo Madara, he had Sage Mode active. Also, Edo Madara's PS = EMS Madara's PS.

His SM faded a while ago.

 

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His SM faded a while ago.


Fact is, that Hashirama used Sage Mode while stalemating Madara's perfect Susanoo with Mokujin. Your scn shows them both standing before each other in base without using Ninjutsu, after the god tree started sucking up all Chakra.
 

Unorthodox

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People still debating this madara ps alone before the bijuu dama cause major damage to shinsuusenju

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the bijuu damas didnt even blow yet shinsuusenju arms are being sliced to pieces sasuke enton and susanoo blades makes this more easier not even debatable people saying mokujin stalemate ps kills yourself with a rusty razor blade

That creation was destroyed with a single bijuu dama from kurama ps shits on mokujin
 
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