[Discussion] Post TS Sanji vs Pre TS Crocodile

[ChillySnow]

That's not how it works.

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Yea it is, Aokiji didn't get killed because he used Haki to defend himself.

I never implied that he wanted to ally with Sanji...

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You said Doffy wants to ally Croc because he is strong but no because they are familiar to eachother and Doffy likes Croc and Croc isn't in a crew whatsoever.

Like you said earlier: he was more familiar with Croc so he wouldn't need to make such comments

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Was it this panel?

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If it was it looks more like Croc was the one initiating the attack and and Doflamingo just casually blocked it

-there was no shockwave. If there was : rubber is perfect for insulating and redirecting or transfering a shockwave : Shockwaves logically won't hurt Luffy
-How can Sanji stomp the crew in which he is 3rd strongest?
-Prove it.
-

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Haki ignores rubber property but it was the BB crews I remembered it wrong. Sengoku's haki is stronger than Jozu's which does more damage to Luffy than Croc. Because it's Pre TS SH that had a hard time taking out a pacifista.

Luffy had an advantage.

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This is Pre Gears Luffy that just came out of EB

Also movement speed wise+could be said for reaction speed

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[24 12 11 to troll]

Yea it is, Aokiji didn't get killed because he used Haki to defend himself.

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Whitebeards Bisento went right through him.

You said Doffy wants to ally Croc because he is strong but no because they are familiar to eachother and Doffy likes Croc and Croc isn't in a crew whatsoever.

And?

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Was it this panel?

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If it was it looks more like Croc was the one initiating the attack and and Doflamingo just casually blocked it

Wrong. You can't tell. It's clear they were in sync.

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Haki ignores rubber property but it was the BB crews I remembered it wrong. Sengoku's haki is stronger than Jozu's which does more damage to Luffy than Croc. Because it's Pre TS SH that had a hard time taking out a pacifista.

And? Pacifistas got nothing on Croc.
Haki allows you to hurt devil fruit users. It doesn't ignore Luffy's rubber properties : otherwise when he uses Haki he wouldn't be able to stretch.

This is Pre Gears Luffy that just came out of EB

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Also movement speed wise+could be said for reaction speed

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Okay great. Crocodile didn't see it coming because he doesn't have Haki. However when he's fighting face to face with someone it'll be different. Crocodile was completely unaware of Luffy.

 

[ChillySnow]

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Whitebeards Bisento went right through him.

You think Haki defense is like a steel armor?

Wrong. You can't tell. It's clear they were in sync.

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I actually can tell, Doflamingo was just standing there while Croc was reaching for him. And where's the grinning one?

And? Pacifistas got nothing on Croc.
Haki allows you to hurt devil fruit users. It doesn't ignore Luffy's rubber properties : otherwise when he uses Haki he wouldn't be able to stretch.

Yea it does. That's why Garp was able to hurt Luffy. If you put Haki into the shockwave, It would not redirect but this isn't the topic at this moment.

I already told you why. You said Sanji would have a hard time taking out Croc because he tanked a brilliant punk but Luffy tanked that DF+Haki punch from Sengoku and M3 had a very hard time taking out a Pacifista while Sanji one shot one easily, thus Post TS Sanji stomps the entire Pre TS group.

Okay great. Crocodile didn't see it coming because he doesn't have Haki. However when he's fighting face to face with someone it'll be different. Crocodile was completely unaware of Luffy.

[/QUOTE]

He couldn't react to it, Luffy went right in front of him then kicked him in the face. How is he unaware of it?

 

[Hijey]

Of course they were monsters. I don't see your point. Because you didn't quote efficiently I don't even know what you're referring to.

It's called dispersing around an attack. Haki allows the user to hit a Logia. But it doesn't remove their powers. They can still disperse into different shapes etc.

What are you referring to now? But they did it unsuccessfully. Crocodile can disperse around attacks : nuff said. It's not a hard concept to grasp is it?

He stomped Luffy multiple times in Alabasta. Luffy only won by cheating on his third attempt. Crocodile was shown to still be stronger in Impel Down and Marineford as he was actually capable of hindering Sakazuki.

I guess you're on about haki. But I can't tell what exactly you're responding to. Smoker is still inferior to Hancock if that means anything.

So you do know something about One Piece?

Refer to the statement. Again I cannot tell what you're talking about.

It's called dispersing and spreading his sand body away from the impact zone.

What do you mean? Brilliant punk is no joke.

You stated Crocodile is better at the admirals with his fruit. Where you got this from is what I was asking.

Okay. Which is what Aokiji did when he made a hole in his stomach.

You said Doflamingo's string without haki can't cut off Crocodile's head. Which is false, since even without haki you can attack a logia without actually damaging them. Is it hard concept to grasp that Doflamingo was recruiting Crocodile and therefore wasn't using haki in that scene? To my surprise, you are the only one to say otherwise.

Luffy was only stomped because Crocodile is logia and therefore can't be hit. The third round it was a legit fight and Luffy defeated him. Here again you are overhyping Crocodile to new heights. Luffy became a lot stronger than he was compared to Alabasta. During this time, Crocodile was in prison and only got a liiittle bit stronger if even that. If we use that logic, Apoo was strong enough to hinder Kizaru in SA too. Being a logia is part of the admirals defence. They don't need care about if haki-less people attack them.

I was referring to that logia's without haki can be stronger with people with haki. Boa's younger sisters would get their ass kicked by Smoker. Obviously Boa Hancock would kill him with utter ease at that time.

Brilliant punk is no joke. It's obviously much greater than anything than the current monster trio can do right now. Crocodile taking one to the face is major misleading because he lost to gearless Luffy. Luffy at the war with his strongest move couldn't take down a pacifista by it's own, which one of Luffy's go to moves can easily do currently. You're basically suggesting that Sanji would have trouble with pre timeskip Crocodile which makes zero sense. Sanji is capable of destroying pacifistas with utter ease. The pre timeskip Strawhats can barely defeat one. Pre timeskip Luffy is stronger than pre timeskip Crocodile. Pre timeskip Strawhats combined are stronger than either pre timeskip Luffy and Crocodile. Is this powerscaling hard to grasp?

 

[VongolaX]

You stated Crocodile is better at the admirals with his fruit. Where you got this from is what I was asking.

Okay. Which is what Aokiji did when he made a hole in his stomach.

You said Doflamingo's string without haki can't cut off Crocodile's head. Which is false, since even without haki you can attack a logia without actually damaging them. Is it hard concept to grasp that Doflamingo was recruiting Crocodile and therefore wasn't using haki in that scene? To my surprise, you are the only one to say otherwise.

Luffy was only stomped because Crocodile is logia and therefore can't be hit. The third round it was a legit fight and Luffy defeated him. Here again you are overhyping Crocodile to new heights. Luffy became a lot stronger than he was compared to Alabasta. During this time, Crocodile was in prison and only got a liiittle bit stronger if even that. If we use that logic, Apoo was strong enough to hinder Kizaru in SA too. Being a logia is part of the admirals defence. They don't need care about if haki-less people attack them.

I was referring to that logia's without haki can be stronger with people with haki. Boa's younger sisters would get their ass kicked by Smoker. Obviously Boa Hancock would kill him with utter ease at that time.

Brilliant punk is no joke. It's obviously much greater than anything than the current monster trio can do right now. Crocodile taking one to the face is major misleading because he lost to gearless Luffy. Luffy at the war with his strongest move couldn't take down a pacifista by it's own, which one of Luffy's go to moves can easily do currently. You're basically suggesting that Sanji would have trouble with pre timeskip Crocodile which makes zero sense. Sanji is capable of destroying pacifistas with utter ease. The pre timeskip Strawhats can barely defeat one. Pre timeskip Luffy is stronger than pre timeskip Crocodile. Pre timeskip Strawhats combined are stronger than either pre timeskip Luffy and Crocodile. Is this powerscaling hard to grasp?

Brilliant punk is stronger than everything we've seen from the monster trio but it means nothing because he lost to pre-time skip luffy?

What are you implying here? It's very contradicting....


I mean luffy lost twice and all of crocodiles attack had no effect on him.

Like Ace vs. Blackbeard sort of, luffy was so damp with blood and water that his punches went right through sables like wind.
After like how many attempts, correct?

Also look at it this way, crocodile was defenseless and his poison was countered thanks to Robin too right?

Well garp who choose not to fight pre timeskip luffy second gear was punched and he still sent him flying.

^^think of it like that situation...

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

You think Haki defense is like a steel armor?

It's how Rayleigh described it.

I actually can tell, Doflamingo was just standing there while Croc was reaching for him. And where's the grinning one?

The panel before the clash was Crocodiles face. You cannot see him reaching for Doflamingo. Stop making things up.

Yea it does. That's why Garp was able to hurt Luffy. If you put Haki into the shockwave, It would not redirect but this isn't the topic at this moment.

Haki allows you to hurt a devil fruit user. It does not take away a devil fruit users powers. We din't even know if you can put Haki into shockwaves.

I already told you why. You said Sanji would have a hard time taking out Croc because he tanked a brilliant punk but Luffy tanked that DF+Haki punch from Sengoku and M3 had a very hard time taking out a Pacifista while Sanji one shot one easily, thus Post TS Sanji stomps the entire Pre TS group.

When did I say Sengoku's punch had Haki? It clearly didn't if Luffy was unaffected.
Franky also solos pre TS Strawhats , same with Zoro and Luffy could probably use Haoshoku to knock them all out. What's your point?

He couldn't react to it, Luffy went right in front of him then kicked him in the face. How is he unaware of it?

It was all in one movement. Luffy didn't stop and stand infront of Crocodile. He kicked him as he came past. How can you react to something you cannot hear or see?

Give up. You can't prove anything.

 

[ChillySnow]

It's how Rayleigh described it.

No, Haki is not an actual steel armor. Do you say that because of Hardening? And WB would of tanked those stabs and deflected those bullets easily considering his level of haki in the war

The panel before the clash was Crocodiles face. You cannot see him reaching for Doflamingo. Stop making things up.

I did not say the panel before the clash. I said the clashing panel. Do you not see Crocodile's hook reaching for Doflamingo while he just stands there. Also there was more of a reason for Croc to attack Doflamingo head on.

Haki allows you to hurt a devil fruit user. It does not take away a devil fruit users powers. We din't even know if you can put Haki into shockwaves.

Akainu didn't disperse in his fight against WB and Aokiji got hit by Jozu. If WB can put haki into his quakes then so can Sengoku. If Aokiji can put Haki into his Ice then so can Sengoku.

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As you can see, Jozu broke Aokiji into pieces then Aokiji bled

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Akainu did not turn into magma like Aokiji did after he got hit.

When did I say Sengoku's punch had Haki? It clearly didn't if Luffy was unaffected.
Franky also solos pre TS Strawhats , same with Zoro and Luffy could probably use Haoshoku to knock them all out. What's your point?

Sengoku obviously put Haki into that punch. Luffy is immune to blunt damage and that Punch made luffy cough blood. My point is that you said Sanji won't stomp Crocodile because he tanked Jozu's brilliant punk and same can be said for Pre TS Luffy in which he tanked an attack from a stronger haki user.

It was all in one movement. Luffy didn't stop and stand infront of Crocodile. He kicked him as he came past. How can you react to something you cannot hear or see?

It's not one movement, Luffy moved in front of Crocodile then kicked him. If Crocodile can react he would of seen Luffy moved right in front of him then Crocodile can block it easily if he can react to it. Luffy has to move in front of him to attack, this is a must.

It is not dispersing but Haki defense. Akainu used Haki defense to protect himself so the part where Marco+Vista attacked turn back into magma. If like you said he "dispersed" then he would of dispersed the entire body instead of just the shoulder part.

 

[Hijey]

Brilliant punk is stronger than everything we've seen from the monster trio but it means nothing because he lost to pre-time skip luffy?

What are you implying here? It's very contradicting....


I mean luffy lost twice and all of crocodiles attack had no effect on him.

Like Ace vs. Blackbeard sort of, luffy was so damp with blood and water that his punches went right through sables like wind.
After like how many attempts, correct?

Also look at it this way, crocodile was defenseless and his poison was countered thanks to Robin too right?

Well garp who choose not to fight pre timeskip luffy second gear was punched and he still sent him flying.

^^think of it like that situation...

What? It's not contradicting. It makes no sense that pre timeskip Crocodile, who lost to gearless Luffy, was able to withstand Brilliant Punk. It's much stronger attack than anything the current monster trio can even do. They are so strong now that they can beat their pre timeskip version with a single attack, Crocodile included. Jozu/Crocodile scene is very misleading. None of Alabasta Luffy's attack would do anything to Crocodile if Crocodile was strong enough to tank Brilliant Punk. Luffy sending Garp flying is obviously also PIS.

 

[VongolaX]

What? It's not contradicting. It makes no sense that pre timeskip Crocodile, who lost to gearless Luffy, was able to withstand Brilliant Punk. It's much stronger attack than anything the current monster trio can even do. They are so strong now that they can beat their pre timeskip version with a single attack, Crocodile included. Jozu/Crocodile scene is very misleading. None of Alabasta Luffy's attack would do anything to Crocodile if Crocodile was strong enough to tank Brilliant Punk. Luffy sending Garp flying is obviously also PIS.

So your agreeing with one arc and disagreeing with the other.

Ya, that is contradicting...

The fact that we read/watched what happened

Facts are facts, nothing change the fact that crocodile took jozu's full attack and sent him flying with sables

^^you can't argue that


The main character is not the only one who developed you know.. :|

 

[Hijey]

So your agreeing with one arc and disagreeing with the other.

Ya, that is contradicting...

The fact that we read/watched what happened

Facts are facts, nothing change the fact that crocodile took jozu's full attack and sent him flying with sables

^^you can't argue that

I'm agreeing with both. I'm saying using the Jozu/Crocodile one as if it means something is dumb because it's misleading. Crocodile at that time was not powerful enough to tank something the current monster trio can't even produce.

 

[VongolaX]

I'm agreeing with both. I'm saying using the Jozu/Crocodile one as if it means something is dumb because it's misleading. Crocodile at that time was not powerful enough to tank something the current monster trio can't even produce.

What i'm saying is that crocodile from Alabasta is not the same as crocodile that escape from impel down.

Characters develope, it's like comparing (using doflamingo as an example)

This doflamingo :

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To this stronger looking one:

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It's not misleading, crocodile simply got stronger and like i said he was at a disadvantage

 

[Hijey]

What i'm saying is that crocodile from Alabasta is not the same as crocodile that escape from impel down.

Characters develope, it's like comparing (using doflamingo as an example)

This doflamingo :

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To this stronger looking one:

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It's not misleading, crocodile simply got stronger and like i said he was at a disadvantage

Bad comparison. Doflamingo had over two years to change. Alabasta to MF would be a few months with Crocodile spending his days behind prison. Even pre timeskip Luffy was not strong enough to tank anything current Luffy can throws at him, let alone Jozu. The idea that Crocodile can is crazy and is misleading.

 

[ChillySnow]

Bad comparison. Doflamingo had over two years to change. Alabasta to MF would be a few months with Crocodile spending his days behind prison. Even pre timeskip Luffy was not strong enough to tank anything current Luffy can throws at him, let alone Jozu. The idea that Crocodile can is crazy and is misleading.

The most logical explanation is that Jozu put little effort into the attack. It does not matter if Crocodile can tank or not, he nearly got blitz by pre skip Luffy, he ain't reacting to a Post Skip Sanji. But it's such an ass pull he got stronger by sitting in prison.

 

[VongolaX]

Bad comparison. Doflamingo had over two years to change. Alabasta to MF would be a few months with Crocodile spending his days behind prison. Even pre timeskip Luffy was not strong enough to tank anything current Luffy can throws at him, let alone Jozu. The idea that Crocodile can is crazy and is misleading.

That first scan is Doflamingo at the same time as crocodile in Alabasta.

You can't determine who developes in what time and not, only Oda has that capability

So we fans go by the latest feat from each individual character and that is this:

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[Hijey]

The most logical explanation is that Jozu put little effort into the attack. It does not matter if Crocodile can tank or not, he nearly got blitz by pre skip Luffy, he ain't reacting to a Post Skip Sanji. But it's such an ass pull he got stronger by sitting in prison.

I agree that Jozu putting little to no effort in that attack sounds most logical here.

That first scan is Doflamingo at the same time as crocodile in Alabasta.

You can't determine who developes in what time and not, only Oda has that capability

So we fans go by the latest feat from each individual character and that is this:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Spoiler

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MF Crocodile was not same as Dressrosa Doflamingo with the pictures you showed, they are years apart. You're arguing against logic here. Crocodile, losing to gearless Luffy, is not improving faster than post Alabasta Luffy sitting behind prison, let alone post timeskip Luffy who is still below Jozu. It just does not make any sense at all.

 

[VongolaX]

I agree that Jozu putting little to no effort in that attack sounds most logical here.



MF Crocodile was not same as Dressrosa Doflamingo with the pictures you showed, they are years apart. You're arguing against logic here. Crocodile, losing to gearless Luffy, is not improving faster than post Alabasta Luffy sitting behind prison, let alone post timeskip Luffy who is still below Jozu. It just does not make any sense at all.

I was looking for the Marineford arc doflamingo, not timeskip doflamingo


Luffy didn't blitz crocodile, they literally exchanged blows for 5 chapters.

All luffy's attacks were counterattack, crocodile was the one who tried to blitz luffy.

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Also if luffy wants to blitzes crocodile, he'll need to use second gear

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Even with that, it still couldn't knock him out or send him flying like jozu

 

[Hijey]

I was looking for the Marineford arc doflamingo, not timeskip doflamingo


Luffy didn't blitz crocodile, they literally exchanged blows for 5 chapters.

All luffy's attacks were counterattack, crocodile was the one who tried to blitz luffy.

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Also if luffy wants to blitzes crocodile, he'll need to use second gear

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Even with that, it still couldn't knock him out or send him flying like jozu

The difference between Doflamingo at that time would be irrelevant since we never saw him in combat and therefore we can't make any logical conclusion based on that because the time wouldn't be more than few months. However, Yaya arc Doflamingo would probably be good deal weaker than Dressrosa Doflamingo since it's been over two years since then. Did I ever say Luffy blitzed Crocodile when he fought him back in Alabasta? Luffy was stronger back then but not to the point he would blitz him. Luffy did get much stronger than Alabasta, while Crocodile was behind prison. How the hell one improves in prison being locked up 24/7 I will never understand.

 

[VongolaX]

Luffy got stronger through his gears

I just showed you luffy gear two kicking crocodile, yet he didn't get koed or thrown back at the very least.

Why don't you ask yourself that question, how can someone sit in prison and get stronger.

Just apply that to real life, and answer how do people get bigger/stronger after coming out of jail.


Smh

 

[Hijey]

He did become stronger without the gears since Alabasta till Enies Lobby. There he became more stronger with the gears because that's something he learned there.

Why does that matter? It was one kick. I never said he could. All I said that Luffy was stronger by a good margin at that point.

In real life, people are allowed to do training and such. In Crocodile's case, he was a logia and someone that would make a mess as soon as you take those handcuffs off.

 

[VongolaX]

He did become stronger without the gears since Alabasta till Enies Lobby. There he became more stronger with the gears because that's something he learned there.

Why does that matter? It was one kick. I never said he could. All I said that Luffy was stronger by a good margin at that point.

In real life, people are allowed to do training and such. In Crocodile's case, he was a logia and someone that would make a mess as soon as you take those handcuffs off.

He's physical strength didn't change significantly.

Throughout the sagas the strawhats develop in one aspect after another.

When luffy had access to his gears, he stop relying on his standard form and use his gears to fight strong opponents

I'm not saying his strength w/o gears stopped, it just not as astonishing rate as you think it is...


Ex: before luffy pushed two huge buildings/castles, which is outrageous but in time skip he takes out a giant in the colosseum in gears 2. <----shouldn't of been needed.

So he did get stronger between crocodile fight to the cp9, but it wasn't a significant leap of strength that you would say Luffy's strength pales in comparison to the lobby episode.

In jail or impel down, they torture the inmates there.

What I'm saying us that crocodile build some durable/resistance feat in the prison.


And judging from the beatings he got from luffy in comparison to how he tanked some in the marineford.......wouldn't you agree?