Nice debate. Carry on , one small point:
@Kidgamer65: shinra tensei is not a valid counter to kabuto's white rage tech. As stated in the manga, this jutsu has 2 effects:
1. to blind an opponents eyes via an orb of high intensity light
2. attacking a victim's ears via vibrations of the air in the surrounding environment.
Air vibrates in all directions, and unless shinra tensei is capable of generating a force capable of dispelling air 360 degrees in increasing semi circles and maintaining it, (in which case a vacuum would be generated, rendering nagato unable to breathe), it isnt cancelling the effects of the hakugeki. Imagine a force expanding outwards from a single point in ALL directions, physical objects wont be the only thing repelled by it, as long as the pressure of this force(shinra tensei) is greater than the ambient air pressure it would create a vaccum within the radius of application of the force(as long as the pressure is maintained). Since the blood in our veins is adapted to the earths atmospheric pressure, such an effect would cause nagatos veins to bulge and pop out. And also render him unable to breathe.
Nothing of the kind has been observed whilst nagato performed shinra tensei, therefore its safe to say this jutsu cannot overcome the effects of a tech that affects the surrounding air molecules as described.
A better option may be to hide in one of his summons, preferably the chameleon to render himself invisible and to escape the first effect, while greatly reducing the effects of the 2nd part of this tech.
I would agree if he used it after White Rage has activated during its effect. I was saying that he would blow the orb and the dragon back before they coil together thus blowing it away from him before the effects have started.
Also the orb seems to be the source of the effect. So if he got rid of it, I'm sure the effects would subside.
I would agree if he used it after White Rage has activated during its effect. I was saying that he would blow the orb and the dragon back before they coil together thus blowing it away from him before the effects have started.
Also the orb seems to be the source of the effect. So if he got rid of it, I'm sure the effects would subside.
Ah in that case the debate would be regarding hakugekis range and nagatos reaction speed after observing the flying dragon.
It also seems to act in all directions from its centre.
Anyways good luck i personally think nagato would win but im surprised you havent brought up kabutos hesitance to go up against the rinnegan when confronted by obito as circumstantial evidence(ch 519 i believe).
Ah in that case the debate would be regarding hakugekis range and nagatos reaction speed after observing the flying dragon.
It also seems to act in all directions from its centre.
Anyways good luck i personally think nagato would win but im surprised you havent brought up kabutos hesitance to go up against the rinnegan when confronted by obito as circumstantial evidence(ch 519 i believe).
I believe he can react quick enough since he has knowledge, and I believe he can push it far enough away as he was able to send 3 boss toads out of the Konoha crater via Deva's ST.
Thanks, and I haven't brought it up mainly cause I like to focus on the character's abilities instead. I thought about it though.
The scale of most techniques is depended by the chakra being utilized. If I take a look at
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, considering Kabuto to create such a massive scaled cave which covers the whole crater and beyond (in consideration of your self drew picture) is beyond imagination and not comprehensible, as the scale of the Muki Tensei he displayed comes nowhere near such a scale. Muki Tensei is also useless in front of Chibaku Tensei. Despite the feed of Chibaku Tensei consists of non living things, they are under the affect of the orbs attractive force, which in return is controlled by Nagato's chakra. If Muki Tensei should affect Chibaku Tensei in any way, it works in the first place by negating the attractive force's effect.
The scale of most techniques is depended by the chakra being utilized. If I take a look at
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, considering Kabuto to create such a massive scaled cave which covers the whole crater and beyond (in consideration of your self drew picture) is beyond imagination and not comprehensible, as the scale of the Muki Tensei he displayed comes nowhere near such a scale. Muki Tensei is also useless in front of Chibaku Tensei. Despite the feed of Chibaku Tensei consists of non living things, they are under the affect of the orbs attractive force, which in return is controlled by Nagato's chakra. If Muki Tensei should affect Chibaku Tensei in any way, it works in the first place by negating the attractive force's effect.
I would agree if he used it after White Rage has activated during its effect. I was saying that he would blow the orb and the dragon back before they coil together thus blowing it away from him before the effects have started.
Also the orb seems to be the source of the effect. So if he got rid of it, I'm sure the effects would subside.
I did take his Edo state into consideration, my point was that Itachi (Despite being an Edo, he did feel pain from the effects of White Rage based on his expression
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) was able to put up a technique that did require concentration so Nagato should be able to sense him coming when it doesn't require concentration. Just wanted to clarify that.
I honestly think you're underestimating White rage. Anyways that feat was with deva pain. All the time we witnessed Nagato use a form of ST he used movements with his hands.
Against hanzo[
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Edo Nagato blocking Bee's sword[
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Edo nagato using a wide scale ST[
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As you can see all the links I provided show nagato some form of hand/arm movements to activate ST. Now i could be other looking things and nagato can indeed use a st without hand/arm movement. Even so once white rage is activated using a ST is be utterly use it it wont repel the sound vibrations surrounding Nagato.
I concede Nagato being able to outrun it then. Though he can still blow it away via ST before it activates.
I wont deny he can possibly blow away The white dragon but if it activates before he using then using a ST will be useless as I explained above.
If he makes this structure from by utilizing the ground as his material, Asura laser cannons would blow it apart making it impossible for him to completely create this thing. Kabuto has to shape the ground into the cave like structure, so that gives Nagato enough time to counter via Asura.
If he uses Jirobo's Doton to do it, Preta can absorb it.
Actually he wouldn't considering the cannon would shoot in a straight forward path and not a wide spread.
The chain of missiles he used, I admit, that would get him caught in the explosion, but the one he used to destroy the houses in Konoha (Which is the same one he used on Killer B, but just on the arm instead of on the head) I highly doubt he'd get caught in it.
Agreeable to a extent. Theirs always the possibly of Kabuto coming into a CQC fight with Nagato and as he is about to use his cannon, Kabuto's snake tails clogs it up which would cause internal damage on nagato's body possibly.
The blast is just like shooting a Bijuu Dama in its uncompressed form. The attack goes straight forward, it doesn't explode in all directions like a bomb
Suigetsu can become liquid. He was fused with the ocean itself. It doesn't matter if he had a human form because he wasn't using said form at the time. He was pure liquid. Having a human form doesn't change what happens to liquid if hit by that kind of explosion.
Bold is impossible. The orb and the dragon are both vital part of White Rage.
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You can clearly see the light burst from the orb. Its safe to say that the effects of White Rage all come from that orb and the dragon initiates it. Without either one the technique will not activate.
Exactly my point. It's safe to conclude that if the orb was destroyed via ST it only seems logically that it was burst dispersing the effect of white rage. The dragon may initiate the activation but once the core is destroyed (The orb) the dragon no longer has control over the orb.
His Shinra Tensei was strong enough to blow Killer B and Naruto back several meters, along with blowing down the trees in the path. White Rage would be blown far enough that it activating wouldn't even hurt anybody.
So you came to conclusion that the white dragon would be destroyed before the orb is destroyed? Logically once the ST comes into physical contact with the orb it would burst letting loose the destructive white wage.
And again, the technique shows that both the dragon and the orb are necessary for it to activate.
-The Dragon to initiate the effect.
-The orb to release the effect.
If they get destroyed, they'll end up getting pulled back against the orb making it become a complete round object again, meaning Kabuto would end up getting crushed. He'd need the spikes to be able to stay intact for the whole forming process of Chibaku Tensei to protect, and to continue protecting him from the incoming rubble.
Are you implying that he will need the spikes in order to stay intact on the CT? As meaning to stay on it? If thats the case you're not taking into consideration of basic ninja skills where they can produce chakra from their fee as a way to stick to the surface or whatever they choose.
Kabuto having knowledge on Nagato's ST would immediately disperse a high amount of chakra under his feet as a way to guard against universal pull and low forms of ST.
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This may as well be a valuable counter to CT once he reaches the sphere of rubble, spikes won't be necessary to stay intact with the sphere of rubble. Not too meantion I honestly believe with the use of Muki tensei he ill be capable of making through the Rubble of sphere and travel to the black orb and destroy it.
I was saying that if he gets out of the range of CT, he can't do anything to Nagato from there so he'd have to come back. And if he does he gets caught in the gravitational pull.
Indeed thats true if he levitates but as I explained above he probably shouldnt.
lol? Not sure if serious.
-The black orb reaches heights far above Mountains.
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Since when was Manda II even as tall or as large as a Mountain let alone at heights the orb reaches?
-How would he make it to the orb before rubble starts to collect on it? Seconds from the orb reaching its place in the sky, rubble starts to collect on it.
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Don't even forget the fact that Manda is not that large.
If you are saying he'll use the gravitational pull to get to the orb, that isn't happening before rubble has collected on it, and Manda II isn't destroying all the rubble surrounding the orb to get to the orb so that still makes this point invalid.
Body Flame Technique is nothing but a transportation jutsu. There is zero reason to believe that this jutsu will allow him to mask his chakra from Nagato to initiate a sneak attack. Its not happening. Especially when chakra scalpel covers his hand in chakra, chakra that Nagato can sense. If Kabuto tries this, chakra scalpel gets absorbed by the Preta barrier leaving nothing but Kabuto's hand there, and then Nagato grabs him and rips his soul out.
Clowns gon be clowns. Obviously Manda can't reach such distances in the sky. I was referring to when Kabuto notices Nagato forming the orb he will Order Manda immediately to go after it before it reaches such heights within the sky.
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We clearly see the Orb traveling up the sky. Why does it seem so un-logical to you that Manda wont be capable of potentially chasing and grabbing the orb before it reaches such high unreachable heights?
How would he make it to the orb before rubble starts to collect on it? Seconds from the orb reaching its place in the sky, rubble starts to collect on it.
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Don't even forget the fact that Manda is not that large.
how would he make it to the orb? obviously before the orb reaches at certain Point where he can't glide on the surface to run after it anymore. The speed of manda should not be overlooked as he was capable of dodging Katsuyas acid upfront and quickly wrapping around her[
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]. Keeping that In mind this is manda 2 with much greater speed. Let's say the orb does reach height where chasing it is no longer a route. Theirs still an option of Kabuto using Muki tensei under Manda as a way to travel to the orb while it's still in its early stages of forming rubble
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Manda isnt that large?
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Regular manda is bigger than gamabunta and katsuya. This is a manda 2 which is larger than manda, do the math clown.
If you are saying he'll use the gravitational pull to get to the orb, that isn't happening before rubble has collected on it, and Manda II isn't destroying all the rubble surrounding the orb to get to the orb so that still makes this point invalid.
manda is destroying it when its in its early stages. Also I already gave a possible situation where kabuto using the gravitational force and using muki tensei on the sphere of rubble to make a path to the black orb in the center.
Body Flame Technique is nothing but a transportation jutsu. There is zero reason to believe that this jutsu will allow him to mask his chakra from Nagato to initiate a sneak attack. Its not happening. Especially when chakra scalpel covers his hand in chakra, chakra that Nagato can sense. If Kabuto tries this, chakra scalpel gets absorbed by the Preta barrier leaving nothing but Kabuto's hand there, and then Nagato grabs him and rips his soul out.
kabuto is already aware Nagato's sensing abilities. Theirs also the option of him using the body flame technique as a means to simply transport away from the gravitational force then counter with a hidden mole technique but this time he will not be going up to the surface. Instead he will use muki tensei as he is still underground beneath nagato where he will be attacked by spikes. Or if anything kabuto will be sure to not use chakra scrapel until he is behind nagato. I wont deny he will probably sense kabuto but will he sense him in time?
The preta barrier as far as Im aware isnt auto activated or am I wrong?
I'd also like to point out that kabuto can also use bone world once he is underground with hide like a mole technique which will very likely catch nagato off guard since its covers such a wide range.
Did you just say nagato grabs kabuto? haha clown. Not when kabuto can shed his body:leaf:
CQC is the last thing Nagato wants to get into Kabuto with. As seeing a single touch from kabuto[
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] will put Nagato in immediate danger as seeing his blow flow to his heart will be cut off[
lol? Kabuto is trapped so the battle is over. Unless he pulls a way to escape the orb once its been formed out of his arse, then he's done. Whoever said CT had to kill him to end this match? CT can be used as a prison as Nagato had exclaimed
Comparing the Moon to Nagatos CT? I love this guy, I really do.
I already explained how he will escape the CT.
At the end of the day no matter what form he is in, he still has a soul, not to mention the bold, is not what his technique does. He doesn't scatter his own body apart as a bunch of different liquid pieces.
leaves behind trails of chakra infused liquid from his real liquefied body which prevented the Uchiha bros from figuring out which liquid form was Kabuto's real body.
:| Isnt that basically the same thing? Either way you look at it what I said still holds grounds
And exactly my point. He spreads out his chakra infused with liquid and they disperse, Lets say for example the soul dragon manages to pick up 2 of those infused liquid pieces? What about all the other ones that are still present? you get it now?
Either way their are still reliable counters to the soul dragon as I demonstrated with the use of creating a Muki tensei Barrier to the point of using hide like a mole technique to evade the soul dragon and follow up with Bone world from kimimaro[
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] and counter attack nagato from underground.
The snakes Itachi was holding turned to liquid, also helping Kabuto hide his real body (Which was indeed liquid at the time)
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Itachi mentions he doesn't know which one is the real Kabuto.
Notice his real body comes out of a snake instead of the liquid coming together to reform himself.
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I'd also like to mention one more thing about the Soul Dragon. Its strong enough to smash rock and Nagato can control its movements, and it doesn't vanish until he wants it to.
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You did mention that he can make a shield using the ground via Muki Tensei, but as at the end of the day, it is nothing but ordinary rock/ground. Soul Dragon can smash through it or go around it and attack Kabuto.
I already expressed my thoughts on the whole liquid soul topic, read above.
As for the soul dragon crushing the muki tensei formation I acknowledge that it will but The muki tensei is used as way to simply slow down the movements of the soul dragon nor completely stop it.
The overall effect of that Genjutsu was amplified as Kabuto had several other ninja helping him. Even with the Sage Mode bonus. The boost the technique will get is not going to be so substantial that its going to go from being reacted to and countered by a Part 1 Sakura, to being able to put Nagato to sleep without him even being able to react. The idea is completely laughable at best.
Um, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is leagues above this Genjutsu that Sakura broke. Bringing Tsukuyomi up here helps nothing.
These people are ninja, being in the heat of battle isn't going to stop him from countering the obvious Genjutsu that has been used. (As he has full knowledge)
You didnt get the point of me bringing up Itachi. I meant to backfire your mastering yin release remark you took it the wrong way. I meant it as though even though nagato mastered yin release that does not make him immune to genjutsu. I already acknowledge that the sleeping genjutsu was amplified but your underestimating the enhancement from Dragon sage mode as witnessed on tayugas sound genjutsu.
We already witness the sound genjutsu on shikamaru from tayuga[
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now compare to when dsm kabuto used it.
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The strength of the flute genjutsu became more powerful as you can tell by the snakes became larger and the overall genjutsu was much more stronger.
The enhanced sleeping genjutsu will surely be much more stronger than it was in part 1 and it wont need a group of other ninja as it did in part 1 to amplify it due to the enhancement of dragon sage mode.
I honestly think you're underestimating White rage. Anyways that feat was with deva pain. All the time we witnessed Nagato use a form of ST he used movements with his hands.
Against hanzo[
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Edo Nagato blocking Bee's sword[
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Edo nagato using a wide scale ST[
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As you can see all the links I provided show nagato some form of hand/arm movements to activate ST. Now i could be other looking things and nagato can indeed use a st without hand/arm movement. Even so once white rage is activated using a ST is be utterly use it it wont repel the sound vibrations surrounding Nagato.
If he blows back the White Dragon, he is effectively blowing back the orb as well, and considering the fact that S/T is pretty much instant or very very fast. The White Dragon won't be activating before he can repel it. Not a chance.
How would preta path absorb jirobo's doton attack? We clearly see kabuto making a gap into the ground[
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]. Sorry but im baffled on how preta path would abosrb the earth itself?
Well wide spread or straight ahead. Its all moving in one direction. Straight ahead past Nagato.
Agreeable to a extent. Theirs always the possibly of Kabuto coming into a CQC fight with Nagato and as he is about to use his cannon, Kabuto's snake tails clogs it up which would cause internal damage on nagato's body possibly.
If Kabuto can reach Nagato after spitting out the White Rage dragon, before he fires the chakra cannon. Then he can just spawn more mechanical limbs similar to how he did when Killer B tried to blind side him.
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Allowing him to grab Kabuto's snake tail and use Human Path.
Exactly my point. It's safe to conclude that if the orb was destroyed via ST it only seems logically that it was burst dispersing the effect of white rage. The dragon may initiate the activation but once the core is destroyed (The orb) the dragon no longer has control over the orb.
So you came to conclusion that the white dragon would be destroyed before the orb is destroyed? Logically once the ST comes into physical contact with the orb it would burst letting loose the destructive white wage.
Shinra Tensei by itself doesn't damage things though, the impact of it crashing into something causes the damage. (That's why Killer B wasn't damaged
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So no. The Orb nor the dragon would be destroyed. Just pushed back and when it crashed into the walls of the crater, then it'd probably be destroyed.
If the dragon really is liquid like you claimed it was, then Shinra Tensei would cause the liquid to be dispelled while the orb was sent flying backwards. As I explained above, Shinra Tensei on its own causes no damage to its target whatsoever. Only the impact of the target hitting something causes the damage.
Are you implying that he will need the spikes in order to stay intact on the CT? As meaning to stay on it? If thats the case you're not taking into consideration of basic ninja skills where they can produce chakra from their fee as a way to stick to the surface or whatever they choose.
Nah, I was saying that for the spikes to continue to keep on blocking rubble for Kabuto like you claimed, they'd have to stay intact the whole time CT is being formed. IF they are destroyed, the rest of the rubble would just end up crushing Kabuto.
But that's impossible. So he would end up getting sucked into the orb.
Not to mention CT reached
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, and that was when Pain used it. Nagato's jutsu are
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. You'd be hard pressed to believe he can form big enough spikes to block off all that rubble from crushing him and completing the orb. Considering he has to use his own life force for that jutsu.
Kabuto having knowledge on Nagato's ST would immediately disperse a high amount of chakra under his feet as a way to guard against universal pull and low forms of ST.
Agreeable for BT and the low forms of ST, certainly not the one he used after he blew Amaterasu off.
This may as well be a valuable counter to CT once he reaches the sphere of rubble, spikes won't be necessary to stay intact with the sphere of rubble. Not too meantion I honestly believe with the use of Muki tensei he ill be capable of making through the Rubble of sphere and travel to the black orb and destroy it.
For Muki Tensei he needs to be able to make contact with what he wants to control in order to infuse his life force into it and do so.
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CT's orb isn't all made up of the same rock. They are pieces of many different rocks, trees, houses (Since the location is Konoha Crater) Wood etc. To destroy the core, he'd need to make contact with the immediate rock surrounding the core, which is something he can't do as he can't make it up there before enough rock to foil this strategy has been collected.
As I explained above with the user of Kabuto using a high amount of chakra under his feet may be a reliable counter to the gravitational pull.
The gravitational pull was ripping the ground apart and pulling it up towards the orb. Kabuto channeling chakra to his feet isn't going to save him from it.
Lol? if he did CT in Mid air wouldnt he potential be caught in the gravitational pull?
As shown when he used it as Pain, in the scan below that you posted. He tossed it away from himself. Not to mention he wasn't caught by it
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. Yet the others were, and they were only a few meters away from him.
...
Clowns gon be clowns. Obviously Manda can't reach such distances in the sky. I was referring to when Kabuto notices Nagato forming the orb he will Order Manda immediately to go after it before it reaches such heights within the sky.
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We clearly see the Orb traveling up the sky. Why does it seem so un-logical to you that Manda wont be capable of potentially chasing and grabbing the orb before it reaches such high unreachable heights?
-As shown in the manga panel the orb travels pretty fast. I highly doubt Manda can not only slither to Nagato's direction, but extend his body upward and to grab the orb, before it gets out of his reach.
-Even if it is fast enough. Asura's
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should be able to hinder Manda II.
how would he make it to the orb? obviously before the orb reaches at certain Point where he can't glide on the surface to run after it anymore. The speed of manda should not be overlooked as he was capable of dodging Katsuyas acid upfront and quickly wrapping around her[
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]. Keeping that In mind this is manda 2 with much greater speed. Let's say the orb does reach height where chasing it is no longer a route. Theirs still an option of Kabuto using Muki tensei under Manda as a way to travel to the orb while it's still in its early stages of forming rubble
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manda is destroying it when its in its early stages. Also I already gave a possible situation where kabuto using the gravitational force and using muki tensei on the sphere of rubble to make a path to the black orb in the center.
Katsuyu's acid isn't known to be fast nor is it shown to be fast, so evading it really isn't that big of a speed feat.
Read above to see why Manda II isn't destroying the orb or even making it to the orb before it reaches the sky.
Using Muki Tensei to lift Manda II up won't work as Chibaku Tensei would simply rip apart the earth Kabuto uses and make it apart of the orb, and it will drag Manda II up along with it.
Manda isnt that large?
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Regular manda is bigger than gamabunta and katsuya. This is a manda 2 which is larger than manda, do the math clown.
lol? When I said he wasn't that large, I meant he wasn't as large as a Mountain or large enough to reach CT's orb once its in the sky.
kabuto is already aware Nagato's sensing abilities. Theirs also the option of him using the body flame technique as a means to simply transport away from the gravitational force then counter with a hidden mole technique but this time he will not be going up to the surface. Instead he will use muki tensei as he is still underground beneath nagato where he will be attacked by spikes. Or if anything kabuto will be sure to not use chakra scrapel until he is behind nagato. I wont deny he will probably sense kabuto but will he sense him in time?
Like the Databook says. Hiding like a Mole Jutsu changes the earth into fine sand by channeling chakra through it.
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique* (土遁・土竜隠れの術, Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
Deidara, Tobi
Moving freely while being hidden underground
That is this escape technique's main point!!
←By sensing the magnetic force, the user can pinpoint where they are, despite being underground.
Thus technique changes earth into fine sand by flowing chakra through it, allowing the user to dig through it like a mole. While underground, one can sense what is happening on the surface and use that information to launch a surprise attack on the enemy. One can also hide deep in the ground, escaping to a depth where the enemy can't reach.
*The kanji of "mogura" literally mean "earth dragon". Yes, the Japanese decided to call their moles earth dragons**. I love this language more with every minute.
**It probably comes from the verb moguru (潜る, "to dive," "to get in," "to go underground"), though, but why let etymology stand in the way of a bad-ass name?
So even if he does this. Nagato will sense him coming rather easily as the earth he is traveling through will have chakra flowing through it. Attack Nagato via Muki Tensei while under ground? First of all, that sounds way too farfetched. Second of all. I posted a scan of Kabuto's stance when he uses Muki Tensei. Also here is a pic of Deidara using this technique. Also note that after the user has passed through, the ground returns to normal.
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-How is he going to make the hand signs for Muki Tensei when the jutsu only allows so much mobility while under ground?
-How is he going to manipulate the ground Nagato is standing on, when he is underground? As he isn't making contact with the object he wants to animate.
-Nagato will be able to sense Kabuto's presence underground allowing him to evade.
Also, where has Kabuto used this jutsu? Databook doesn't have him listed as a user. If you could post a scan please.
The preta barrier as far as Im aware isnt auto activated or am I wrong?
I'd also like to point out that kabuto can also use bone world once he is underground with hide like a mole technique which will very likely catch nagato off guard since its covers such a wide range.
Again, Kabuto using jutsu like this while underground isn't happening.
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As that scan shows he clearly needs room, he needs to form Kimimaro from his navel snake, and he needs to make contact with the ground. Something he can't do while underground. I don't even see how this is possible.
Kabuto's version
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. So it can be dodged given the large open space they are in.
Did you just say nagato grabs kabuto? haha clown. Not when kabuto can shed his body:leaf:
CQC is the last thing Nagato wants to get into Kabuto with. As seeing a single touch from kabuto[
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] will put Nagato in immediate danger as seeing his blow flow to his heart will be cut off[
Kabuto using Muki Tensei to control multiple pieces of rubble without making contact with them (Which is a requirement for this jutsu) to try and escape?
Kabuto even making the handsigns to use Muki Tensei while encased and crushed by the rock? (This isn't a hollow sphere where has room to move)
Kabuto being able to control the rubble of the whole sphere despite it dwarfing Mountains? Where are the feats that suggest he has the capability to do something on such a scale? He uses his own life force for this jutsu. He might just kill himself attempting to do something like that.
Not sure if serious. You are vastly overrating the capabilities of Kabuto and this jutsu.
Comparing the Moon to Nagatos CT? I love this guy, I really do.
:| Isnt that basically the same thing? Either way you look at it what I said still holds grounds
And exactly my point. He spreads out his chakra infused with liquid and they disperse, Lets say for example the soul dragon manages to pick up 2 of those infused liquid pieces? What about all the other ones that are still present? you get it now?
Either way their are still reliable counters to the soul dragon as I demonstrated with the use of creating a Muki tensei Barrier to the point of using hide like a mole technique to evade the soul dragon and follow up with Bone world from kimimaro[
Yeah I get it. Though eventually the real Kabuto needs to show himself, and eventually the dragon will pick off his diversions. Then what does he do next?
I expressed my thoughts on Kabuto using Bone World or Muki Tensei while he is in the ground.
As for the soul dragon crushing the muki tensei formation I acknowledge that it will but The muki tensei is used as way to simply slow down the movements of the soul dragon nor completely stop it.
Well, when its destroyed, Kabuto is on the run again.
You didnt get the point of me bringing up Itachi. I meant to backfire your mastering yin release remark you took it the wrong way. I meant it as though even though nagato mastered yin release that does not make him immune to genjutsu. I already acknowledge that the sleeping genjutsu was amplified but your underestimating the enhancement from Dragon sage mode as witnessed on tayugas sound genjutsu.
We already witness the sound genjutsu on shikamaru from tayuga[
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]
now compare to when dsm kabuto used it.
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The strength of the flute genjutsu became more powerful as you can tell by the snakes became larger and the overall genjutsu was much more stronger.
The enhanced sleeping genjutsu will surely be much more stronger than it was in part 1 and it wont need a group of other ninja as it did in part 1 to amplify it due to the enhancement of dragon sage mode.
You still have to subtract the bonus from all the ninja helping him, and then add the Sage Mode bonus. There's is no way that there is going to be such a big difference in the strength of the jutsu that it can go from Sakura being able to break it with little effort. (Part 1) to Nagato being unable to break it. Especially when he has full intel and can break it via Genjutsu Kai or Chakra disruption blades after closing his eyes, as Kakashi, Sakura, and Gai did.
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I mentioned Yin Release to show that he has understanding of the principles of Genjutsu. Not to show that he's immune to Genjutsu.
Btw. Those weren't snakes that were binding Shikamaru. Those were ropes. And the difference between Tayuya's Genjutsu and that Genjutsu is Tayuya's was actually formidable when she used it. This one clearly wasn't formidable as its best feat was putting civilians along with Genin (Bar Sakura) to sleep. You are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a fodder Genjutsu will become formidable enough to knock Nagato out just because of a Sage Mode bonus.
The sad part about this debate is that Prince still hasnt fully used all of Oru/Kimmi/Kido/Tayuya.... 'Ninjas' Lucky i didnt Defend Kabuto! This wouldnt even be a topic past the first post!
The sad part about this debate is that Prince still hasnt fully used all of Oru/Kimmi/Kido/Tayuya.... 'Ninjas' Lucky i didnt Defend Kabuto! This wouldnt even be a topic past the first post!
Sound 4 Abilities are far too overrated. What makes Kabuto so strong non-Edo Tensei is SM abilities plus the abilities via Taka. His healing+liquifying+gathering infinite Nature chakra is because of Taka. That's what makes him powerful.
OK real talk I havent began debating yet! im about to disgrace this clown so bad! after im done with this clown he's gunna be another zimmerman victim! PRINCE STYLE!
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Hey kidgamer! I dont see how you can hate from our side of the club.. when you cant even get in.. Haha LEH GO
Aaaah yes As I said i wasn't entirely sure thanks for clearing that up though.
The White Dragon holds the orb.
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If he blows back the White Dragon, he is effectively blowing back the orb as well, and considering the fact that S/T is pretty much instant or very very fast. The White Dragon won't be activating before he can repel it. Not a chance.
The white dragon is indeed holding the black Orb as you demonstrated. But I still have to disagree! Once the ST impales the black orb needless to say it will burst I presume? We have to use common sense here, Now you claim the white dragon will be impaled back along with the orb before it can detonate. You're not taking into factors here
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As displayed the white dragon and formed out of kabuto's mouth, Now lets take into consideration here that if indeed nagato use a ST to repel the dragon logically it would still be connected to kabuto's mouth will it not? Taken that into consideration the ST would also be pushing back kabuto along with the dragon, so we can conclude that Kabuto can simply reform the dragon at will if needed.
Also it should be noted that kabuto already has full knowledge on Nagato's rinnegan techs. Shinrei tensei has ways of being countered.
Kidomaru's web
Now to my understanding I believe Kabuto using kidomaru's webs[
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] as a means of softening the impact of ST is a noteworthy counter here. Allow me explain
Similar to how Rock lee did a devastating blow upon Gaara with the use of gates[
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]. Gaara is capable of reducing the damage basically softening the attack by using his sand gourd as a cushion to soften the blow[
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]. Now quite similar not only can kidomaru's be used a way to hold strong against shinrei tensei but also With kabuto's pre knowledge on shinrei tensei by using kidomaru's webs to soften the impact of ST is a likely counter.
Forget about me mentioning Preta lol. I was thinking of another Earth Technique. Jirobo's makes use of the earth itself, I totally forgot.
The canon laser blast? Yes. As for his large scale blasts that spread which May deal him damage as well? No.
If Kabuto can reach Nagato after spitting out the White Rage dragon, before he fires the chakra cannon. Then he can just spawn more mechanical limbs similar to how he did when Killer B tried to blind side him. [X] Allowing him to grab Kabuto's snake tail and use Human Path.
I think your taking light of Kabuto's DSM enhancements, but Ill go over that in a few moments. Now regarding the chakra cannon hitting Kabuto you and me both know his regeneration automatically makes that futile. But I still feel you're not totally understanding kabuto's defenses here.
The fact that he is able to make physical contact with sasukes kusanagi blade multiple proves his skin durability[
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][X]
Anyways regarding Nagato's Limbs are futile here as they simply get cut off with the use of Kabutos chakra scrapel[
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]. The fact that he cut Itachis body in half effortlessly, Nagato's extra Limbs are futile in this case. Like I said Nagatos wants to avoid CQC as much as possible. If Nagato were to grab kabuto by the tail, kabuto can simply counterattack by simply going into his liquefy mode or rather performing body shedding technique.
Kabuto being able to reach nagato is effortlessly as seeing he able to evade a sussano from ems sasuke[
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]. Then theres also the fact that If nagato were to grab Kabuto by the tell he also risk getting a snake bite with poisonous venom.
Shinra Tensei by itself doesn't damage things though, the impact of it crashing into something causes the damage. (That's why Killer B wasn't damaged
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So no. The Orb nor the dragon would be destroyed. Just pushed back and when it crashed into the walls of the crater, then it'd probably be destroyed.
The orb and white dragon are rather fragile and small beings. If they came into contact with ST, also taking into consideration of the liquid like characteristic of the white dragon it could possibly still harm the orb causing it to shatter and eventually disperse. But as I said above I gave my thoughts on this matter somewhat.
If the dragon really is liquid like you claimed it was, then Shinra Tensei would cause the liquid to be dispelled while the orb was sent flying backwards. As I explained above, Shinra Tensei on its own causes no damage to its target whatsoever. Only the impact of the target hitting something causes the damage.
Read the post above. And honestly saying it causes no damage whats so ever without the impact of something else is a bit of a exaggeration. Thats like saying if a bird got caught in a ST while in the sky where their is nothing for it to get hit by your saying the bird would receive no damage since their was nothing in the sky for the bird to take the impact on.
Nah, I was saying that for the spikes to continue to keep on blocking rubble for Kabuto like you claimed, they'd have to stay intact the whole time CT is being formed. IF they are destroyed, the rest of the rubble would just end up crushing Kabuto.
I think your underestimating the creation of the spikes. With the mass rubble of rocks Kabuto will have more than enough substance to create spikes from.
But that's impossible. So he would end up getting sucked into the orb.
Whats impossible? Kabuot using chakra under his feet to stick to a certain point on the sphere of rubble? How so?
Not to mention CT reached
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, and that was when Pain used it. Nagato's jutsu are
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. You'd be hard pressed to believe he can form big enough spikes to block off all that rubble from crushing him and completing the orb. Considering he has to use his own life force for that jutsu.
Glad we agree. But its also arguable that Kidomaru's webs may also play a role in potentially making kabuto resist Shinrei tensei.
For Muki Tensei he needs to be able to make contact with what he wants to control in order to infuse his life force into it and do so.
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CT's orb isn't all made up of the same rock. They are pieces of many different rocks, trees, houses (Since the location is Konoha Crater) Wood etc. To destroy the core, he'd need to make contact with the immediate rock surrounding the core, which is something he can't do as he can't make it up there before enough rock to foil this strategy has been collected.
The location is the kohana crater. The majority of substances that will be sucked up are large quantity of boulders and rocks. Any trees or houses would very likely get destroyed and reduced to nothing by the larger rubble of rocks. So he will not have a tough time using MT as he can simply touch the sphere of rubble which largely consist of simply rocks and thats that.
Also when Nagato used CT to capture naruto in his tailed beast form in a Forest the outer characteristics of CT were simply rocks and boulders[
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].
As you can see while CT was activated we clearly see trees being pulled up but they get reduced to nothing[
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].
The gravitational pull was ripping the ground apart and pulling it up towards the orb. Kabuto channeling chakra to his feet isn't going to save him from it.
Thats because it was still on the surface.. It's questionable when his actually in Mid air where he is vulnerable to incoming rubble.
-As shown in the manga panel the orb travels pretty fast. I highly doubt Manda can not only slither to Nagato's direction, but extend his body upward and to grab the orb, before it gets out of his reach.
Lol clown. I would agree with you if Asuras missle has the fire power of C4 which V1 Manda's body and skin remained intact[
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]. The length of Manda especially Manda 2 shouldnt be overlooked when he was practically capable of wrapping his body around turtle island[
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]. Manda v1 body length was already considerably high now manda 2 being much larger, I mean its pretty self explanatory. The length of his body is the key factor here which will enable him to reach the orb before it reaches high distances.
Katsuyu's acid isn't known to be fast nor is it shown to be fast, so evading it really isn't that big of a speed feat.
Read above to see why Manda II isn't destroying the orb or even making it to the orb before it reaches the sky.
Using Muki Tensei to lift Manda II up won't work as Chibaku Tensei would simply rip apart the earth Kabuto uses and make it apart of the orb, and it will drag Manda II up along with it.
You're missing the point here. It was just due to the fact that he dodged katsuyas acid but also getting quickly behind her as he did it. As I said he will use Muki tensei to bring up Manda before the orb starts to activate. Actually when you think about it the gravitational pull, pulling manda in may actually help my side as seeing it simply make it an easier task on Mandas part to reach and destroy the orb. Thanks clown.
lol? When I said he wasn't that large, I meant he wasn't as large as a Mountain or large enough to reach CT's orb once its in the sky.
Be more specific time. I call em how I see em. #3hunna #No sugar coatin
Like the Databook says. Hiding like a Mole Jutsu changes the earth into fine sand by channeling chakra through it.
So even if he does this. Nagato will sense him coming rather easily as the earth he is traveling through will have chakra flowing through it. Attack Nagato via Muki Tensei while under ground? First of all, that sounds way too farfetched. Second of all. I posted a scan of Kabuto's stance when he uses Muki Tensei. Also here is a pic of Deidara using this technique. Also note that after the user has passed through, the ground returns to normal.
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-How is he going to make the hand signs for Muki Tensei when the jutsu only allows so much mobility while under ground?
-How is he going to manipulate the ground Nagato is standing on, when he is underground? As he isn't making contact with the object he wants to animate.
-Nagato will be able to sense Kabuto's presence underground allowing him to evade.
Also, where has Kabuto used this jutsu? Databook doesn't have him listed as a user. If you could post a scan please.
how does it sound far fetched? He simply retreats to underground for a moment and performs muki tensei with the surrounding rock around him underground. How is he going to make the hand signs? lol what? so he has enough space to move his body around but not hands and fingers which are ants compared to the human body? Nice logic. How is he going to manipulate the ground nagato to is standing on? How far beneath do you think will go? Anyway Muki tensei seems to to be trouble here. So rather his best option would be to use Bone world via Kimimaro KKG which will cover a large radius within a matter of seconds.
Honestly I cant recall the page nor chapter where he it used but Im positive he did as I recall.
Again, Kabuto using jutsu like this while underground isn't happening.
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As that scan shows he clearly needs room, he needs to form Kimimaro from his navel snake, and he needs to make contact with the ground. Something he can't do while underground. I don't even see how this is possible.
Kabuto's version
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. So it can be dodged given the large open space they are in.
I honestly think your blowing this space underground out of proportion. It was never specified that he into to use muki tensei he needs to have contact with the surface(upper ground) to manipulate non living things. Him being underground honestly makes no difference here.
I disagree regarding his version not having a wide scale that makes no sense when his dsm is suppose to strengthen it. When you take into consideration of this scan[
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], but your not taking into factor of the large gab that kabuto made in the ground from using jirobou which seemed to have cut off some of the bones from spreading out.
Its not really an important point anyway, as he'd only do this if he tried to attack him via Chakra Scalpel. (lol)
Except Kabuto will never touch Nagato due to Shinra Tensei.
Except he will when we take into factor of his increased speed from his dsm.
Kabuto using Muki Tensei to control multiple pieces of rubble without making contact with them (Which is a requirement for this jutsu) to try and escape?
Kabuto even making the handsigns to use Muki Tensei while encased and crushed by the rock? (This isn't a hollow sphere where has room to move)
Kabuto being able to control the rubble of the whole sphere despite it dwarfing Mountains? Where are the feats that suggest he has the capability to do something on such a scale? He uses his own life force for this jutsu. He might just kill himself attempting to do something like that.
Not sure if serious. You are vastly overrating the capabilities of Kabuto and this jutsu.
Sigh how willl he not be making contact with the rubble when he is touching them? Once he does it fuses his life force into a considerable amount of rubble and manipulates them.
smh when he used MT on the cave he touched one spot[
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]. Yet he is capable of controlling large amount of spikes that he did not touch[
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] and he changed the form of the landscape. Explain this so called great one. Obviously your part on kabuto not coming into contact with the other rubble and thus not being able to manipulate them is flawed when he didnt touch every spike nor location of the cave yet still controlled a majority of it!
Kabuto even making the handsigns to use Muki Tensei while encased and crushed by the rock? (This isn't a hollow sphere where has room to move)
Or maybe you never thought of kabuto turning into liquid. and dripping through the cracks of the rubble while he is encased?
Kabuto being able to control the rubble of the whole sphere despite it dwarfing Mountains? Where are the feats that suggest he has the capability to do something on such a scale? He uses his own life force for this jutsu. He might just kill himself attempting to do something like that.
Are you referring to my theory? If so go read above as I explained he does not need to touch every single to aspect and inch of the sphere to control and manipulate a large portion of it.
The point was it could be used as a prison. Size doesn't matter.
Yo mama so stupid she sold her car for gas money! lol
Yeah I get it. Though eventually the real Kabuto needs to show himself, and eventually the dragon will pick off his diversions. Then what does he do next?
I expressed my thoughts on Kabuto using Bone World or Muki Tensei while he is in the ground.
Agreeable and I also expressed my thoughts on the bone world and Muki tensei while he is in the ground. Also it should be noted that he should have ways of making freed up space while underground particular with brute force when we take into factor of his body upgrades.
What does he do next you say? he creates a large gap into the earth with the use of jirobou and restrain the gedo as long as he can.
Well, when its destroyed, Kabuto is on the run again
You still have to subtract the bonus from all the ninja helping him, and then add the Sage Mode bonus. There's is no way that there is going to be such a big difference in the strength of the jutsu that it can go from Sakura being able to break it with little effort. (Part 1) to Nagato being unable to break it. Especially when he has full intel and can break it via Genjutsu Kai or Chakra disruption blades after closing his eyes, as Kakashi, Sakura, and Gai did. [x]
I mentioned Yin Release to show that he has understanding of the principles of Genjutsu. Not to show that he's immune to Genjutsu.
Btw. Those weren't snakes that were binding Shikamaru. Those were ropes. And the difference between Tayuya's Genjutsu and that Genjutsu is Tayuya's was actually formidable when she used it. This one clearly wasn't formidable as its best feat was putting civilians along with Genin (Bar Sakura) to sleep. You are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a fodder Genjutsu will become formidable enough to knock Nagato out just because of a Sage Mode bonus.
It is going to make a big difference, he already had experience and the proficiency to pull it off. Added with dsm which is noted to increase the power of the users genjutsu it only seems logical it will be stronger. I think your abusing this full intel quite a bit, obviously their should be a extent to this full intel. I dont see how it makes sense both opponents know all of the others jutsu and etc.. but whatever.
Btw. Those weren't snakes that were binding Shikamaru. Those were ropes. And the difference between Tayuya's Genjutsu and that Genjutsu is Tayuya's was actually formidable when she used it. This one clearly wasn't formidable as its best feat was putting civilians along with Genin (Bar Sakura) to sleep. You are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a fodder Genjutsu will become formidable enough to knock Nagato out just because of a Sage Mode bonus
Snake ropes whatever Makes no difference here. Kabutos version seem to be snakes. Tayuyas genjutsu has its flaws. The victim can still move to a certain extent and still perform doujutsu techniques as shown by itachi and sasuke so it isnt as formidable as you think.
Fodder genjutsu? haha funny. As I said if he cant react to the falling feathers in time he will go to sleep.
Btw I honestly think your over exaggerating the space underground while doing hide like a mole technique. Tobi planted deidaras clay bombs which obviously requires some form of hand movement.[
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]. Regarding nagato sensing kabuto under ground Kabuto will most likely have the surprise counter attack first with bone world before nagato can react.
