Who really won in the end? Madara or Hashirama?

[JIRAIYA perv]

Thats true. They are rivals. And Madara gave it all he got. But in the end it's still questionable his motives. Until we see the upcoming manga.

Madara praising Hashirama was a humble act. He respected and feared Hashirama.

true but you also have to think about the reason he respected and feared hashirama so much ..... to go as far as saying that hashirama could stop him in a very very strong state (edo). am with you, we can't be so sure about anything at the moment but, witch scenario makes more sense after all we saw ?? btw like your threads lol

 

[theRPGdude]

Title says who won between Hashirama and Madara...... as in their fight.... Hashirama clearly.

By using your scenario, Hashirama has also won long time ago.... why? cause he completed his goal:

Spoiler

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I like that reply.

He did achieve his dream village. And sought to seek peace with Madara even going to the limit saying that it's all pointless are fight. It will lead to pain and suffering. Madara reply:

HOW DARE YOU!!!

Madara loved his brother. Whatever happen in the past thay cause him to be like this is still in question. However he sought to bring the Senju Clan down and went ahead and fought Hashirama. Even with his admiration and avenge. He still has a hidden drive.

For me Madara won in the long run but Hashirama did kick his butt. (1000 hands?)

 

[KingHashirama]

...Except Hashirama's goal had nothing to do with Madara vs Hashirama? What?

And actually OP was talking about if he won in the long run as well.

Madara was actually in the way of Hashirama's goals...... lol. All of Hashirama's goals would've been ruined by the self-centered maniac who wanted power.

And where did Madara say his was to take Hashirama's Dna? Only gullible people believe that someone would go for a suicide just to get Dna, that you can get normally... lmao. And its not even close to being confirmed by Madara... In the flashbacks Madara states nothing like that... lol . If he just wanted Dna.. he would've just cut Hashirama and got his blood.. bam. But no sir he did not do that.. He went full out against Hashirama, to try to beat him. He was proving to him that he was already at the top now..

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I like that reply.

He did achieve his dream village. And sought to seek peace with Madara even going to the limit saying that it's all pointless are fight. It will lead to pain and suffering. Madara reply:

HOW DARE YOU!!!

Madara loved his brother. Whatever happen in the past thay cause him to be like this is still in question. However he sought to bring the Senju Clan down and went ahead and fought Hashirama. Even with his admiration and avenge. He still has a hidden drive.

For me Madara won in the long run but Hashirama did kick his butt. (1000 hands?)

Actually Hashirama made truce with the Uchiha....while Madara was denying it. He then got more Butthurt that Hashirama was made the Hokage. Izuna was probably killed by the Senju, so thats why he bears Hatred for them. But, Hashirama's goals were completed mate. While Madara's still haven't.

But if your talking about Madara's ideals and etc.. then Hashirama won, due to his creation of the religion of Konoha : WILL OF FIRE.

Either way bro, Hashirama wins. Its like what Ironman said to Loki in the Avengers (But modifying it to Naruto), "there is no plan on which Madara comes up on top. "

 

[Invsblphntm]

Madara was actually in the way of Hashirama's goals...... lol. All of Hashirama's goals would've been ruined by the self-centered maniac who wanted power.

And where did Madara say his was to take Hashirama's Dna? Only gullible people believe that someone would go for a suicide just to get Dna, that you can get normally... lmao. And its not even close to being confirmed by Madara... In the flashbacks Madara states nothing like that... lol . If he just wanted Dna.. he would've just cut Hashirama and got his blood.. bam. But no sir he did not do that.. He went full out against Hashirama, to try to beat him. He was proving to him that he was already at the top now..

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The "at the top" thing was a mistranslation.

The real thing said something like:

"I'm already at the other side"

Referencing their stone skipping habit.

OT:

Hashirama won, Obito was trying to make up for Madara's loss, but Madz was going all out in an attempt to take over Konoha.

The DNA was merely the last resort back up plan.

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

Madara was actually in the way of Hashirama's goals...... lol. All of Hashirama's goals would've been ruined by the self-centered maniac who wanted power.

And where did Madara say his was to take Hashirama's Dna? Only gullible people believe that someone would go for a suicide just to get Dna, that you can get normally... lmao. And its not even close to being confirmed by Madara... In the flashbacks Madara states nothing like that... lol . If he just wanted Dna.. he would've just cut Hashirama and got his blood.. bam. But no sir he did not do that.. He went full out against Hashirama, to try to beat him. He was proving to him that he was already at the top now..

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ya bro, that's what i was trying to say. wanting DNA or not, looking at the history between the two and how proud madara is of his power, there is no way madara would have lost that fight if he had the power to do something.
he gave it all he had and it wasn't enough .....

 

[theRPGdude]

true but you also have to think about the reason he respected and feared hashirama so much ..... to go as far as saying that hashirama could stop him in a very very strong state (edo). am with you, we can't be so sure about anything at the moment but, witch scenario makes more sense after all we saw ?? btw like your threads lol

Hard to contemplate indeed what would really happen in scenarios that question a lot.

Easily said the best choice would be how Madara hyped Hashirama and seeing his potential in the final fight. (1000 hands? Needless the say) so it could be that Hashirama is the only one who can beat Madara or he just said that to futher the inevitable that how the Kages were defending the ninja world to a monster house like Edo Madara.

Either or it's plan and simple we can't question how powerful Madara is. But that still does not take away Hashirama. So...it's a tie?

 

[Booker]

Madara was actually in the way of Hashirama's goals...... lol. All of Hashirama's goals would've been ruined by the self-centered maniac who wanted power.

And where did Madara say his was to take Hashirama's Dna? Only gullible people believe that someone would go for a suicide just to get Dna, that you can get normally... lmao. And its not even close to being confirmed by Madara... In the flashbacks Madara states nothing like that... lol . If he just wanted Dna.. he would've just cut Hashirama and got his blood.. bam. But no sir he did not do that.. He went full out against Hashirama, to try to beat him. He was proving to him that he was already at the top now..

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I'm sorry who has a 10 tails Juubi, that he got from planning from before he died, right now?

 

[KingHashirama]

The "at the top" thing was a mistranslation.

The real thing said something like:

"I'm already at the other side"

Referencing their stone skipping habit.

OT:

Hashirama won, Obito was trying to make up for Madara's loss, but Madz was going all out in an attempt to take over Konoha.

The DNA was merely the last resort back up plan.

o-o, lol.. no offense.. but your way off... Hashirama was "at the otherside" before Madara.... and then Madara caught up.. It makes no sense if that was what Madara said.

ya bro, that's what i was trying to say. wanting DNA or not, looking at the history between the two and how proud madara is of his power, there is no way madara would loose that fight if he had the power to do simething.
he gave it all he had and it wasn't enough .....

Exactly.

I'm sorry who has a 10 tails Juubi, that he got from planning from before he died, right now?

Not Madara...

 

[Transcendence]

This is a very arguable topic. Madara enlightened us to the fact that Hashirama was the "Perfect" Shinobi. Able to heal himself instantly, use jutsu without hand seals and as shown from the first flashback, his 1000 (More than 1000 actually, several thousand) Buddha hands tech is simply on a different level than what we have seen, and Madara is the only one to compare. The battle was won by Hashirama. You can't look at it any other way.

The way I see it:

- Both of them fought at full power. This was a clash of the True Elder Son reincarnation (Power: Highlighted by Madara attempting to subjugate Muu and Ohnoki to obey the Leaf) and the True Younger Son reincarnation (Love: Highlighted by Hashirama proposing the truce to make the Leaf and questioning Madara as to him actually wanting to fight him head on).

- At first, Madara had simple intentions: Avenge his brother.

- This could be because Hashirama or the Senju's in general were somehow involved with Izuna's death.

- It was probably before the fight that he was able to compose some kind of scheme, but it did not blindside him in his fight against Hashirama. His motives were clear: Avenge Izuna and display his power (To show to Hashirama how much more powerful he had become).

- His "plotting" probably had to do with the secrets of the EMS that he was able to read at the Uchiha alter. He was the only one at the time to have the EMS so... Yea, he would be the only one to know the secrets.


I think from the above logic we can deduce that, it wasn't until after the battle which Madara lost (The battle was also a catalyst for the Eye of the Moon because if you read the Manga page, one of the motives for Madara to conceive this scheme was because of the concept of "Winners and losers" and in the Genjutsu world there would be no losers) that his motives completely changed. The fight was the fight. Nothing more (The DNA idea may have came to him at the alter which gave heed to the secrets of the Rinnegan. Either way, if he was more powerful he would of killed Hashirama. It would give him a larger sample of his cells because it is noted that cells never die, so whether Hashirama was dead or not, he could of gotten the cells.)

 

[theRPGdude]

Madara was actually in the way of Hashirama's goals...... lol. All of Hashirama's goals would've been ruined by the self-centered maniac who wanted power.

And where did Madara say his was to take Hashirama's Dna? Only gullible people believe that someone would go for a suicide just to get Dna, that you can get normally... lmao. And its not even close to being confirmed by Madara... In the flashbacks Madara states nothing like that... lol . If he just wanted Dna.. he would've just cut Hashirama and got his blood.. bam. But no sir he did not do that.. He went full out against Hashirama, to try to beat him. He was proving to him that he was already at the top now..

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Actually Hashirama made truce with the Uchiha....while Madara was denying it. He then got more Butthurt that Hashirama was made the Hokage. Izuna was probably killed by the Senju, so thats why he bears Hatred for them. But, Hashirama's goals were completed mate. While Madara's still haven't.

But if your talking about Madara's ideals and etc.. then Hashirama won, due to his creation of the religion of Konoha : WILL OF FIRE.

Either way bro, Hashirama wins. Its like what Ironman said to Loki in the Avengers (But modifying it to Naruto), "there is no plan on which Madara comes up on top. "

Hmm. A different side of things. I like this.

I got nothing else to say. But i am convinced with what you say and agree.

Madara could not stand seeing the Senju raise in power and fear for the Uchiha. And his intentions were based on protecting his clan. Even though they abandon them he still sought to "protect" the uchiha. Turns out he became power hungry.

 

[Invsblphntm]

o-o, lol.. no offense.. but your way off... Hashirama was "at the otherside" before Madara.... and then Madara caught up.. It makes no sense if that was what Madara said.
.

o-o, lol.. no offense.. but your way off... Madara sent a TBB across an ocean implying he got to the "other side", now telling Hashi it's "his turn" to fight back.. It makes no sense that you're arguing with Viz scans

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

Hard to contemplate indeed what would really happen in scenarios that question a lot.

Easily said the best choice would be how Madara hyped Hashirama and seeing his potential in the final fight. (1000 hands? Needless the say) so it could be that Hashirama is the only one who can beat Madara or he just said that to futher the inevitable that how the Kages were defending the ninja world to a monster house like Edo Madara.

Either or it's plan and simple we can't question how powerful Madara is. But that still does not take away Hashirama. So...it's a tie?

hmmm ..... ya, all what i was trying to tell you is that, all what happened/said makes hashirama's side seem stronger. you seem to like madara so i can say this, they were RIVALS who acknowledged each other (meaning they are on the same level or at least very very close to each other). so if you are speaking about the the fight that already happened then hashirama won without a doubt (both gave their all) but, remember the good guy will always win in this series lol but that doesn't mean that madara is weak, if he was that weaker than hashirama then they wouldn't be called rivals right ?? *_*

 

[theRPGdude]

This is a very arguable topic. Madara enlightened us to the fact that Hashirama was the "Perfect" Shinobi. Able to heal himself instantly, use jutsu without hand seals and as shown from the first flashback, his 1000 (More than 1000 actually, several thousand) Buddha hands tech is simply on a different level than what we have seen, and Madara is the only one to compare. The battle was won by Hashirama. You can't look at it any other way.

The way I see it:

- Both of them fought at full power. This was a clash of the True Elder Son reincarnation (Power: Highlighted by Madara attempting to subjugate Muu and Ohnoki to obey the Leaf) and the True Younger Son reincarnation (Love: Highlighted by Hashirama proposing the truce to make the Leaf and questioning Madara as to him actually wanting to fight him head on).

- At first, Madara had simple intentions: Avenge his brother.

- This could be because Hashirama or the Senju's in general were somehow involved with Izuna's death.

- It was probably before the fight that he was able to compose some kind of scheme, but it did not blindside him in his fight against Hashirama. His motives were clear: Avenge Izuna and display his power (To show to Hashirama how much more powerful he had become).

- His "plotting" probably had to do with the secrets of the EMS that he was able to read at the Uchiha alter. He was the only one at the time to have the EMS so... Yea, he would be the only one to know the secrets.


I think from the above logic we can deduce that, it wasn't until after the battle which Madara lost (The battle was also a catalyst for the Eye of the Moon because if you read the Manga page, one of the motives for Madara to conceive this scheme was because of the concept of "Winners and losers" and in the Genjutsu world there would be no losers) that his motives completely changed. The fight was the fight. Nothing more (The DNA idea may have came to him at the alter which gave heed to the secrets of the Rinnegan. Either way, if he was more powerful he would of killed Hashirama. It would give him a larger sample of his cells because it is noted that cells never die, so whether Hashirama was dead or not, he could of gotten the cells.)

True Hashirama won that.

True Madara could either continue his plan.

What confuses me is how did Madara know about Edo Tensi? Of that had some connection? Or it could be irrelevant. But we do see Edo Madara...

 

[KingHashirama]

o-o, lol.. no offense.. but your way off... Madara sent a TBB across an ocean implying he got to the "other side", now telling Hashi it's "his turn" to fight back.. It makes no sense that you're arguing with Viz scans

Yet, you provide no viz scan ;]. And also, how exactly is what your saying, different from "I'm at the Top"? lmao. Its implying hes stronger.

 

[theRPGdude]

hmmm ..... ya, all what i was trying to tell you is that, all what happened/said makes hashirama's side seem stronger. you seem to like madara so i can say this, they were RIVALS who acknowledged each other (meaning they are on the same level or at least very very close to each other). so if you are speaking about the the fight that already happened then hashirama won without a doubt (both gave their all) but, remember the good guy will always win in this series lol but that doesn't mean that madara is weak, if he was that weaker than hashirama then they wouldn't be called rivals right ?? *_*

It's a battle between ninja. Ideals over ideals. There is no good or bad.

Madara had his own sense of justice. As well as Hashirama. But thats illrelevant to the discussion just wanted to point that out.

Now to refer you Daft Punk song "In The End" for Madara. He gave it his all but it does not even matter.

We can see there personalitys come to play. Hashirama who wins at everything and Madara the sore loser...adara wanted to prove he can win. But than failed.

 

[Zebstrika]

Asking this question is pointless. There is no "end" yet. Madara's plan is still not complete (and I doubt it will be).

Here Obito, using the Madara alias, explains his plans:

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Got Hashi's DNA. Check.
Juubi is back. Check.
Hasn't become a Juubi host yet.
Hasn't completed Moon eye plan yet.

 

[KingHashirama]

It's a battle between ninja. Ideals over ideals. There is no good or bad.

Madara had his own sense of justice. As well as Hashirama. But thats illrelevant to the discussion just wanted to point that out.

Now to refer you Daft Punk song "In The End" for Madara. He gave it his all but it does not even matter.

Linkin Park is Daft Punk song? lol what theee helll bro.
Good:
Noun
That which is morally right; righteousness.



Everything Madara does is morally wrong. Therefore he isn't good mate. ^_^.

 

[Invsblphntm]

Yet, you provide no viz scan ;]. And also, how exactly is what your saying, different from "I'm at the Top"? lmao. Its implying hes stronger.

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lmao.

 

[KingHashirama]

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lmao.

.. like many other said... That makes no sense.....

Sorry buddy, but ask your friend to post up the whole page. There is no point posting a part of the page.

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

It's a battle between ninja. Ideals over ideals. There is no good or bad.

Madara had his own sense of justice. As well as Hashirama. But thats illrelevant to the discussion just wanted to point that out.

Now to refer you Daft Punk song "In The End" for Madara. He gave it his all but it does not even matter.

but madara's sense of justice is flawed, an illusion is not reality (EMP), his intention for peace is the only right thing but what he seeks (a world of illusion) and the methods he chose to get there are wrong. that's why kishi wrote him as the bad side of this story (or you can call it the side that lost it's way), that's why they are like the the SO6P's sons :

- SO6P's sons (one bad, one good and the good guy wins).

- hashirama and madara (one bad, one good and the good guy wins).

- naruto and sasuke (guess what will happen ??).

so that's why i said that the good guy will always win here lol.
OT: madara did survive and outlived hashirama, also his plan is working at the moment (until something obviously happens). but why are we discussing what happened after the fight ?? they both had the motive to win and gave their all in the fight (one of them won). and if you think that madara is back now and he won the war with hashirama, then think of this, hashirama was the first hokage who insured the future of konoha and passed down his legacy to others who will keep the peace, and i can guarantee you that these people will stop madara in the next few chapters. so you can't say that madara won the war against hashirama until his plan is complete and lets just say ..... the writer won't let that happen (on the good guy's side) specially when one of konoha's peace keepers is NARUTO (yep the hero).