What can tank jinton?

[ComplexCity]

Apparently Amateratsu

 

[ComplexCity]

Didn't edo madara's PS cannonically tank jinton?

If i remember well, madara's 25 legged susano's were destroyed by (Tsunade +)Onoki's Jinton so madara used PS.

If it was that way, almost everything in that list can tank it. But i'm not sure if what i said was right

No it didn't

 

[Thesaurus]

All Susanoo users can walk in or out of their Susanoo because it acts like a semipermeable membrane and lets the

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but has a physical resistance to everything else. Itachi can walk through Yata because its medium is Susanoo so it gains that property of Susanoo.

Bold doesn't really make sense, DB already stated Yata has no physical form twice, and stated it is spiritual twice. Doki is also spiritual, and can phase through trees.

 

[Beans2]

Bold doesn't really make sense, DB already stated Yata has no physical form twice, and stated it is spiritual twice. Doki is also spiritual, and can phase through trees.

It can possibly be an attribute of the mirror itself but in that case it would be a coincidence that both Yata and Susanoo have that property (where the user can phase through but other attacks meet resistance). I think it's more likely that Yata gains a physical form when applied to a medium.

 

[KidGamer65]

Didn't edo madara's PS cannonically tank jinton?

If i remember well, madara's 25 legged susano's were destroyed by (Tsunade +)Onoki's Jinton so madara used PS.

If it was that way, almost everything in that list can tank it. But i'm not sure if what i said was right

No. It didn't. Not sure why people think it did. They never made contact. Madara jumped out of the cube, and then used Susanoo.

 

[New Dawn]

yata mirror tanks jinton. Fact.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Itachi still has control over it, so it's bound to him by some form of chakra link. I'd think it's similar to Totsuka in its working, and it's implied that Totsuka to extend/change shape since it's originally liquid form, has had varying sizes in the manga and is a variant of Oro's size-changing Kusanagi (most likely under Itachi's control, or it would be rather redundant). Thus the user would need some form of control over it to do so. Just my take on it though, you could argue that it's bound to his soul or mind, seeing how Orochimaru's control over Kusanagi doesn't seem chakra related at all.

Edit: Oro has controlled Kusanagi with the movement of his fingers, telekinetically, and had it appear in all his snakes. I'd say there's some far deeper connection than chakra given that, and it would most likely apply to Itachi.

Yeah, that would make sense. Can't really argue for or against it.

Your argument is that Yata is a spirit weapon without a physical form therefore it doesn't have molecules that can be destroyed. That's faulty logic because it manifests a physical form when applied to its medium (V4 Susanoo). Otherwise you would have to claim that attacks like Bijuu Dama and PS slashes won't destroy Yata Mirror because it's not composed of matter, and therefore it literally can't be destroyed since those attacks only affect matter.

The author of this manga blatantly wrote that the shield has no physical form, while providing a picture of it being "applied to it's medium", which was what the statement was referring to. So I'm not quite sure what you're arguing against here. The shield can defend against both physical attacks (wordly matter) and astral attacks (no worldly matter). To your point, perhaps those level of attacks can bust through it's defenses, but I have no reason to believe something that is described to be unworldly can be completely destroyed and erased from existence from a physical attack. That just wouldn't make sense given the Yata Mirrors properties.

The bolded is false as the only thing that supports it is databook hyperbole. Just because jinton destroys on a molecular level doesn't mean that it can disassemble all molecules, so very durable defenses can tank it. It's ridiculous to believe that Jinton would put a hole in Sasuke's Bijuu PS, but be tanked by Yata Mirror.

And the reason I think Jinton is too strong for Yata Mirror is because Jinton instantly vaporized V3 Susanoo. If Onoki holds the jinton in place for a longer time then it can bore through more durable defenses since extended exposure to an attack is stronger than brief exposure to an attack. A fireball won't melt a boulder if exposed to the flames for 10 seconds but if exposed to the flames for an hour it will melt. This way it can destroy a more durable Susanoo equipped with Yata Mirror. Whereas what's Yata's best tanking feat? Repelling Hydra heads? Obviously that's not the strongest attack it can tank but put that into perspective and it's clear Jinton is a much stronger attack than Yata is a defense.

Being able to defend against that type of attack =/= being able to defend against a powerful enough attack of that type. Both of these techniques have databook descriptions with exaggerated hyperboles so I'm taking everything the databook says concerning limitations with a grain of salt.

If you recall, I agreed with EjBlacks post stating that Rikudo power-ups could probably withstand it for the very reasoning you stated. So my statement was made barring Rikudo level defenses. I don't even believe the DB supports the notion of Jinton disintegrating molecules on Rikudo level, because it mentions ninja level implementation, and in my mind, that doesn't include Rikudo/god level.

But you made the assumption that Yata Mirror's durability is above V4 Susano'o level defenses (which I agree with). So going by that, Jintons best feat of vaporizing a V3 susano'o doesn't put it above Yata Mirror. The difference between an ordinary defense such as PS (for example) and Yata Mirror, is that a PS only has a certain level of durability. Yata Mirror has it's level of durability, plus the power to alter it's attributes to render an attack ineffective, and deflect it back. So Jinton can't just be heald in place against Yata Mirror, because it would eventually be rendered ineffective by Yata's altered properties and repelled away. That and in addition to the fact that the shield isn't bound to worldly matter.

What needs to be put into perspective is both the DB and manga (by the all knowing BZ) placing Yata Mirror above Jinton, not the contrary.

All Susanoo users can walk in or out of their Susanoo because it acts like a semipermeable membrane and lets the

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but has a physical resistance to everything else. Itachi can walk through Yata because its medium is Susanoo so it gains that property of Susanoo.

What Apex said. And Yata Mirror is simply a weapon weilded by Itachi's susano'o... it should not be directly compared to Itachi's own jutsu. It appears to even phase right through the ground as I also mentioned.

 

[Beans2]

The author of this manga blatantly wrote that the shield has no physical form, while providing a picture of it being "applied to it's medium", which was what the statement was referring to. So I'm not quite sure what you're arguing against here. The shield can defend against both physical attacks (wordly matter) and astral attacks (no worldly matter). To your point, perhaps those level of attacks can bust through it's defenses, but I have no reason to believe something that is described to be unworldly can be completely destroyed and erased from existence from a physical attack. That just wouldn't make sense given the Yata Mirrors properties.

Again. Being able to defend against those types of attacks doesn't mean it can defend against those types of attacks if they are strong enough. Let me ask you, do you think Shinsuusenju would destroy Yata Mirror? If you answer yes, then you have to acknowledge that physical attacks do work on Yata if they are on a high enough level. So there's no argument over whether Jinton would function differently against Yata than any other attack would. If the attack is stronger than the defense, said attack destroys defense and vice versa. The only thing to debate is whether jinton is a strong enough attack. A databook statement that Yata has no physical form isn't enough evidence for me to believe that it's immune to an attack like Jinton which affects matter. It either:

1. Gains a physical form from its medium.
2. Doesn't gain a physical form, but still can be affected by physical attacks.

Either way, nothing grants it immunity from Jinton. Being a spirit weapon isn't enough.

As for your earlier statement: that's the databook description of the Yata Mirror itself. The picture next to it is of Yata Mirror on Susanoo but that doesn't mean it has no physical form when tied to a medium. For example, the words "Perfect Susanoo" appear in front of the big panel

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, but that isn't PS, it's V4 Susanoo. So #1 is still a possibility.

If you recall, I agreed with EjBlacks post stating that Rikudo power-ups could probably withstand it for the very reasoning you stated. So my statement was made barring Rikudo level defenses. I don't even believe the DB supports the notion of Jinton disintegrating molecules on Rikudo level, because it mentions ninja level implementation, and in my mind, that doesn't include Rikudo/god level.

There is literally no difference in the mechanics behind Rikudou based defenses and normal ones, as KidGamer said earlier. One is just much more durable than the other, and you already said that "Jinton simply ignores any defensive level of durability due to it's ability to break things down to it's molecular level." So you're contradicting yourself here.

But you made the assumption that Yata Mirror's durability is above V4 Susano'o level defenses (which I agree with). So going by that, Jintons best feat of vaporizing a V3 susano'o doesn't put it above Yata Mirror. The difference between an ordinary defense such as PS (for example) and Yata Mirror, is that a PS only has a certain level of durability. Yata Mirror has it's level of durability, plus the power to alter it's attributes to render an attack ineffective, and deflect it back. So Jinton can't just be heald in place against Yata Mirror, because it would eventually be rendered ineffective by Yata's altered properties and repelled away. That and in addition to the fact that the shield isn't bound to worldly matter.

Jinton's best feat is destroying V3 Susanoo but that doesn't make it the limitation of its power. And I'm not seeing your point with the bold. Yata Mirror can only repel an attack that is weak enough for Yata to tank. If it can tank Jinton then it would be repelled immediately. Continued exposure to jinton is stronger than brief exposure to jinton so if it can't immediately repel it then it won't be able to eventually. I've already addressed the part about Yata not being made from worldly matter.

What needs to be put into perspective is both the DB and manga (by the all knowing BZ) placing Yata Mirror above Jinton, not the contrary.

I think you are reading way too deep into the Databook hype. A clash between jinton and Yata works the same way as any other clash between Attack X and Defense Y where the stronger one prevails. And by feats Jinton is far stronger.

What Apex said. And Yata Mirror is simply a weapon weilded by Itachi's susano'o... it should not be directly compared to Itachi's own jutsu. It appears to even phase right through the ground as I also mentioned.

I think it's more likely that Yata gains some properties of its medium, but either way it doesn't change my point.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Again. Being able to defend against those types of attacks doesn't mean it can defend against those types of attacks if they are strong enough. Let me ask you, do you think Shinsuusenju would destroy Yata Mirror? If you answer yes, then you have to acknowledge that physical attacks do work on Yata if they are on a high enough level. So there's no argument over whether Jinton would function differently against Yata than any other attack would. If the attack is stronger than the defense, said attack destroys defense and vice versa. The only thing to debate is whether jinton is a strong enough attack. A databook statement that Yata has no physical form isn't enough evidence for me to believe that it's immune to an attack like Jinton which affects matter. It either:

1. Gains a physical form from its medium.
2. Doesn't gain a physical form, but still can be affected by physical attacks.

Either way, nothing grants it immunity from Jinton. Being a spirit weapon isn't enough.

As for your earlier statement: that's the databook description of the Yata Mirror itself. The picture next to it is of Yata Mirror on Susanoo but that doesn't mean it has no physical form when tied to a medium. For example, the words "Perfect Susanoo" appear in front of the big panel

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, but that isn't PS, it's V4 Susanoo. So #1 is still a possibility.

And please point out to me where I stated otherwise. You missed the point. You continue to make the claim that the shield becomes physical while weilded by susano'o... So I brought up the fact that it can defend against both physical attacks and astral body attacks. If the shield became physical, like you're suggesting, then it shouldn't be capable of defending against astral attacks. I wasn't applying no limit fallacy to it's defense. Furthermore, we see the full shield

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. You can argue that it could only be a physical shield, because physical attacks would have to come into contact with it. But then the bottom half of the shield appears to be phasing through the ground, while still deflecting physical attacks [

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]. I have no reason to believe the sword gains a physical form while weilded by it's medium, and contradict what the databook and manga implies. And to your example, Shinsuusenju and Jinton aren't comparable attacks, and neither does it prove your point. We've already seen physical attacks that work like Shinsuusenju clash against Yata. What we haven't seen is Yata clashing against a Jutsu that operates by breaking down molecules - something an unearthly material shouldn't have.

1. Baseless, and unsupported by the manga or databook.
2. This is obviously the case, but it doesn't directly imply the shield would be effected by a jutsu that works solely by breaking down a substance that shouldn't apply to it.

Lmao. So what is the point of stating it has no physical form? Why is the shield phasing through solid matter as it's weilded by susano'o? So does the shield also lose it's ability to change it's attributes and deflect attacks, because it's tied to it's medium? Obviously not. And your counter example doesn't even work. That was said while susano'o was adding armor and transitioning into PS. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that the shield has no physical form... it literally and blatantly say's it doesn't.

There is literally no difference in the mechanics behind Rikudou based defenses and normal ones, as KidGamer said earlier. One is just much more durable than the other, and you already said that "Jinton simply ignores any defensive level of durability due to it's ability to break things down to it's molecular level." So you're contradicting yourself here.

I thought Rikudos were a special case, because they have some sort of immunity to ninjutsu that doesn't contain Senjutsu or whatever. I am completely ignorant when it comes to Rikudo level beings, so my bad. They don't interest me in the slightest and I don't ever discuss them. So I have no problem admitting I know close to nothing about them. In any case, that statement was made barring Rikudo level bullshit. I do not see any defense that isn't powered by Rikudos completely tanking Jinton, barring Yata Mirror.

Jinton's best feat is destroying V3 Susanoo but that doesn't make it the limitation of its power. And I'm not seeing your point with the bold. Yata Mirror can only repel an attack that is weak enough for Yata to tank. If it can tank Jinton then it would be repelled immediately. Continued exposure to jinton is stronger than brief exposure to jinton so if it can't immediately repel it then it won't be able to eventually. I've already addressed the part about Yata not being made from worldly matter.

And the same could be said about Yata Mirror, which is why ignoring all other factors, and deciding who wins based on pure feats alone isn't accurate. Especially when we both agree on the fact that Yata Mirror's defensive capabilities should far exceed it's actual feats, based on rational reasoning. Yeah, I have no idea why I used the word eventually when I literally said it couldn't be heald in place against Yata. Because then it would be able to be heald into place, doesn't make any sense. Meant to say Jinton can't be heald in place for longer exposure against Yata, because it would be immediately rendered ineffective and then deflected.

I think you are reading way too deep into the Databook hype. A clash between jinton and Yata works the same way as any other clash between Attack X and Defense Y where the stronger one prevails. And by feats Jinton is far stronger.

How so? I'm not using it's hyperbole in my arguements. Simply taking what it say's for a fact within reason. When Kishi writes the shield has no physical form, I'd think that would mean the shield has no physical form. You can't take it's hyperbole literally, but it definitely accounts for something. And it's definitely placed on a much higher pedestal then Jinton in both the databook and manga.
No it doesn't. Every defense doesn't defend against every attack in the same manner. They all have their strength and weaknesses based on the properties of what's clashing.

I think it's more likely that Yata gains some properties of its medium, but either way it doesn't change my point.

Well then that's your opinion, dawg. But I don't think its' very accurate with the manga or databook.

 

[Beans2]

And please point out to me where I stated otherwise. You missed the point. You continue to make the claim that the shield becomes physical while weilded by susano'o... So I brought up the fact that it can defend against both physical attacks and astral body attacks. If the shield became physical, like you're suggesting, then it shouldn't be capable of defending against astral attacks. I wasn't applying no limit fallacy to it's defense. Furthermore, we see the full shield

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. You can argue that it could only be a physical shield, because physical attacks would have to come into contact with it. But then the bottom half of the shield appears to be phasing through the ground, while still deflecting physical attacks [

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]. I have no reason to believe the sword gains a physical form while weilded by it's medium, and contradict what the databook and manga implies. And to your example, Shinsuusenju and Jinton aren't comparable attacks, and neither does it prove your point. We've already seen physical attacks that work like Shinsuusenju clash against Yata. What we haven't seen is Yata clashing against a Jutsu that operates by breaking down molecules - something an unearthly material shouldn't have.

1. Baseless, and unsupported by the manga or databook.
2. This is obviously the case, but it doesn't directly imply the shield would be effected by a jutsu that works solely by breaking down a substance that shouldn't apply to it.

Lmao. So what is the point of stating it has no physical form? Why is the shield phasing through solid matter as it's weilded by susano'o? So does the shield also lose it's ability to change it's attributes and deflect attacks, because it's tied to it's medium? Obviously not. And your counter example doesn't even work. That was said while susano'o was adding armor and transitioning into PS. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that the shield has no physical form... it literally and blatantly say's it doesn't.



I thought Rikudos were a special case, because they have some sort of immunity to ninjutsu that doesn't contain Senjutsu or whatever. I am completely ignorant when it comes to Rikudo level beings, so my bad. They don't interest me in the slightest and I don't ever discuss them. So I have no problem admitting I know close to nothing about them. In any case, that statement was made barring Rikudo level bullshit. I do not see any defense that isn't powered by Rikudos completely tanking Jinton, barring Yata Mirror.




And the same could be said about Yata Mirror, which is why ignoring all other factors, and deciding who wins based on pure feats alone isn't accurate. Especially when we both agree on the fact that Yata Mirror's defensive capabilities should far exceed it's actual feats, based on rational reasoning. Yeah, I have no idea why I used the word eventually when I literally said it couldn't be heald in place against Yata. Because then it would be able to be heald into place, doesn't make any sense. Meant to say Jinton can't be heald in place for longer exposure against Yata, because it would be immediately rendered ineffective and then deflected.



How so? I'm not using it's hyperbole in my arguements. Simply taking what it say's for a fact within reason. When Kishi writes the shield has no physical form, I'd think that would mean the shield has no physical form. You can't take it's hyperbole literally, but it definitely accounts for something. And it's definitely placed on a much higher pedestal then Jinton in both the databook and manga.
No it doesn't. Every defense doesn't defend against every attack in the same manner. They all have their strength and weaknesses based on the properties of what's clashing.



Well then that's your opinion, dawg. But I don't think its' very accurate with the manga or databook.

Bruh I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Both Yata and Jinton are attacks/defenses that can be interpreted in more than one way based on databook desc. and this is a very sketchy subject in the first place due to lack of feats and unclear functions. Nice debate regardless.