[Discussion] The Enigma of Tobi

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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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So, the thing with all these Tobi theories is that they have become obsolete with the recent manga chapters but people still cling to them. I have some thoughts on this myself but this is NOT a theory. I don't have any solid proof. It's merely a hypothesis based on fragmented evidence. Something to think about and perhaps, make a decent theory out of later.

The following are both connections between the elder son of the Sage of the Six Paths and Tobi, and reasons why the elder son could be Tobi:

The Masked Man - Character & Abilities​

- I’ll start with this
Sharingans true power… My power ... Uchiha Madara's power ...

Comment: See how he plays it out? He put's himself before Uchiha Madara. If he was Madara, he would have said, "the Power of Uchiha Madara,” b/c villains usually speak in the 3rd person. Or simply "My power," in the first person. Madara was the only ninja in the history that could achieve the same power of the Elder Son. He had both Uchiha blood and high level Sharingan. Maybe this is why Tobi often refers to himself as Madara. They had the same story, fate and outcome.

- The Masked Man adamantly believes in peace through might/power

Comment: For example, the moon's eye plan he detailed. This page highlights the different ideologies shared by the two brothers.

- He is like Madara, yet he’s not Madara

Comment: He talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his own. Perhaps, he is mirroring it to his fight with his younger brother?




He also abhors the leaf and all of their champions (Ex. 1st Hokage and Naruto). He detests everything they stand for. They are the embodiment of his brother.

- OBJECTION! He lies all the time about his true intentions

Comment: It is very difficult to site the manga because he is constantly deceiving/manipulating others. Everything he says we have to take with a grain of salt.

- “Who on earth are you?” This page … mind = blown



Comment: Everything on it is pure gold. We also can assume that it is completely true because Konan is moments from dying. Since she pushed The Masked Man to his limits, he rewards her with an honest demeanor. He states, "I am Uchiha Madara with the power of Senju Hashirama!" "I am the ONLY one who could be the second Sage of Six paths” “He who sees the future is the victor!” How can he be Uchiha Madara with the power of Senju Hashirama? I’ll let you interpret that for a sec. Remember, he uses his alter ego of Madara to express his actual sentiments.

- The Elder son may still be alive

Comment: SO6P was a god in the Naruto universe, so his children would be especially powerful. If ninjas such as Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori and Oro can achieve immortality, it is plausible that the elder son found a way to extend his life span. Obviously his younger son, being the successor, chose the same fate of his father and died of natural causes/old age. How did Elder son survive for so long?

Zetsu. He can replace his body parts, which means his body can't decay. His sharingan that is always active grants him greater perception (no way to sneak up on him) and his space-time techniques make it impossible for someone to kill him. Conclusion = Tobi is invincible and immortal.

- Masked Man's immortality



I wish we knew more about his pocket dimension. It could be a clue to his immortality. If Torune and Fu didn't die in there after several weeks, this means that time is nonexistant in that dimension. He can fully manipulate the rules of time and space in his pocket dimension - similar to Itachi's Tsukuyomi gen jutsu.

- Hides his identity

Comment: If he's Madara why would he hide his face? Why does he still use the mask? And NO, it wasn't actually Madara who was seen in the Itachi/Kisame flashbacks. Kisame met a long-haired Tobi and than he recognized short-haired Tobi as the same person! So, this person is not Madara just because he has long hair lol. It's one of the ploys Kishi put in the manga just to fuk with our minds.

- Everyone recognized the same face that they thought was Uchiha Madara

Comment: Itachi and Kisame both met the man they had thought to be Uchiha Madara. Long-haired Tobi approached Kisame and falsely called himself Uchiha Madara. When short-haired Tobi approached him again, Kisame recognized him as the same person. Therefore, long haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are the same mysterious character.
Long-haired Tobi approaching Kisame :

Short-haired Tobi recognized by Kisame:

- His techniques are beyond anything we have seen in manga!

Comment: Both Tobi and Zetsu are leagues above all other ninja. Their abilities are incredible. They could quite possibly be from another time/place. They do not fit in the story. Tobi is technically invincible and Zetsu easily disabled the four kages at the summit.
His powers are beyond what we have seen so far in manga. Minato is epic but his techniques are nowhere near the level of Tobi's. Minato is just using ultra fast summoning. His secret is in the speed of his movement. Tobi on other hand is pure master of space/time. Not only he can move through space but it seems that he can also control time in his pocket dimension. Fu and Torune were in there for weeks and they apparently did not die.
How does he manipulate space and time is still a mystery to me. It could have something to do with the unique perception that these doujutsus grant their users. As we know - time and matter is illusion, and is limited by our eyes and our perception.

- The Rinnegan was his before?

Comment: When fighting Konan, the Masked Man claimed to have given the Rinnegan to Nagato and was retrieving what was originally his. If he is the elder son, this would explain how these ancient eyes magically appeared in a random young boy - Nagato. Considering that we now know that the Rinnegan is a stage in the maturity of the sharingan (3 tomoe, MS, EMS, Rinngan). The masked man loaned his Rinngan to Nagato/Pain, so that he could manipulate him. He was merely a pawn in his grand scheme, which we do not fully understand yet.

- The Masked Man is, “a former shell of himself”

Comment: If this is a weakened state, imagine when he is complete. He is weak probably due to his extremely old age. He is living thanks to Zetsu.

- He has extensive knowledge of the original Sage of the Six Paths and his two sons

Comment: He told Naruto, Kakashi and Yamato of how the Senju and Uchiha are destined to always fight one another



- The Masked Man desires to become the Juubi Jinchuurikki ... why?

Comment: To continue his fathers legacy. It's a classic story …



Here he says that Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used for his own means. I believe he wanted Nagato to resurrect the Juubi after they collected all the bijuus. He also mentions Sasuke. If he cannot control Sasuke, he will have no use in their plan. This could explain why he doesn't want to revive Madara. He could prove to be too difficult to control unlike Nagato.

The Legacy of Sage of the Six Paths - The Ultimate Doujutsu

- The intertwined fate between the two bloodlines Senju vs Uchiha


Comment: The fact is, since that day he and his descendants always took the role of being inferior to Senju.

- Unmentioned Doujutsu!



Sage, along with the Rinnegan, was introduced before his sons :







This can only mean that Uchiha clan's ancestor swirly doujutsu is not a mistake or an interpretation of the manga! It was drawn by Kishimoto with intention! The Elder son's eyes are derived from the Rinnegan. It is similar, but slightly different.

- That swirl in the Elder son's eyes looks awfully simular to Tobi's warp technique

Comment: Kamui = Sharingan technique

Tobi's swirly warp = undefined doujutsu technique

The Sharingan is derived from Elder son's doujutsu, obviously the sharingan and it's jutsus are going to be inferior to the doujutsu it derived from - which explains why Kakashi's Kamui is comparatively inferior.

The 3rd Databook says : "If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked." This supports my idea even more than before!

Also, Tobi's previous mask looked like the his swirly doujutsu. His new mask looks a bit different.

Considering that Tobi now has both the Rinnegan and Sharingan, it could represent the Juubi's doujutsu.


- WAIT IS THERE A MOTIF IN NARUTO?

Comment: There is definitely a lot more to explore with the re-ocurring theme of melding the body of the Senju and the eyes of the Uchiha. Another example is Nagato/Pain. According to Tobi, Nagato is a descendant of the Uzumaki clan (trademark red hair). If he gave him the Rinngan, then we have yet again another example. The Masked Man tried to combine these two traits.

In addition, we know that Kabuto did something to Madara's newly summoned body which made him beyond what he was in his prime. Key word body. Perhaps, an injection of Senju cells. We can only speculate at this point.

- More unrelated/interesting thoughts about the character of Orochimaru

Comment: The Masked Man is trying to meld the power of the Uchiha and Senju. In turn, becoming the 2nd Sage of Six Paths. Orochimaru and Kabuto were also trying to accomplish this same feat. Which is why they facilitated experiments combining the body of the Senju and the eyes of the Uchiha. They were attempting to artificially recreate the power of the Sage. Obviously, they failed with Danzo.

This was Orochimaru's goal in the original manga. It explains things. Like, why he wanted Sasuke and why he was conducting all those experiments. The only way to truly to master every jutsu was to obtain the rinngan. How do you do that? According to their hypothesis, obtain a vessel with the sharingan (sasuke) and level up accordingly (3 tomoe, MS, EMS, Rinngan)

- Why does everyone want this power?

Comment: The power of the Sage of the Six Paths is pure creation. Your only limits would be your own imagination. The miscellaneous powers granted by higher level Sharingan revolve around creation and destruction. The perfect Rinnegan will ultimately culminate in a doujutsu that affects the very fabric of reality. A complete Izangi. The Masked Man explains …

Disproving Other Theories regarding the Identity of Tobi

- Honestly who could be dark, evil and powerful enough to fill Tobi's spot? Tobi = Kishimoto

Comment: There is not much to choose from. Madara? If he is, then why would the summoned Madara refer to himself as "him". And Kabuto refers to Masked Man as, “his assistant,” who is clearly not Madara because he is standing right in front of him. This does not make sense and you know it.
It would be stupid from Kishi to keep us in such suspension, put all these ploys and riddles in the manga just to finally reveal that Tobi was Izuna, Kagami, Zetsu (not clone of Madara) or some other regular character. It's not just stupid, it is a total let down and it doesn't enrich the story in any way. Kishi is way better writer than that. People want to see something epic and only a new, unknown character of an epic caliber would achieve this.

Another reason why most of the "Tobi is..." theories fails is because those characters lack motive, skill and knowledge. Elder son of the Sage fits perfectly in the whole story. He has the motive, the power and the knowledge to be the Masked Man. He's not even reported to be dead like most of the other candidates. If anything, he has the biggest motive of all for being Tobi. That's why I choosed to work on this character instead of others.

- The personalities of Madara and the Masked Man do not match

Comment: He is arrogant and aloof at times. He is always underestimating his opponents (b/c he can) and treats everyone like children. In chapter 560, Madara does not convey these characteristics in the least.

Masked Man acting arrogant and underestimating Konan, twice:








Masked Man acting arrogant and underestimating Minato :





The Masked Man has shown a specific characteristic that Uchiha Madara does not have.



"One sometimes needs patience to achieve their goals." (Side note : great words, I agree with him) This is something that Madara would never have said.

Madara is a fighter, a warrior. Obviosly he has a rash personality.


When his clan wanted peace, he wanted war.



When Hashirama became Hokage his rash and over emotional personality led him to the point where he was despised by his clan and had to leave the village.



Bent on revenge, his rash personality led him to attack Konoha



This is not how a patient man looks, involving Kyuubi in this matter means he was dead serious on his wish to destroy Konoha/kill Hashirama.

- Let’s not make assumptions based on hair

Comment: Look at his hair. It looks very similar but is not the same as Madara's. I believe this is just one of the ploys Kishi put in the story to throw the reader off track. That bastard like's to toy with us.

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-The Masked Man is not a Zetsu clone

Zetsu does not copy persons mind or their memory.



Zetsu Neji failed to fool Sakura when he thought TonTon was a human. Zetsu clones retain their own mind.

They only copy appearance and chakra. They are not as good as original, even if they have their chakra and they can perform all their jutsus.

Madara, nor Zetsu doesn't have any of Tobi's Space/Time abilities.


-The Masked Man is not Kagami

Kagami is hardest to disprove because nothing is known about him.
For me, his sole purpose is for Kishimoto to mind**** his readers. Throw a random Uchiha from early Konoha times so everyone would go crazy about him. And, amazingly, it worked.
From what little we can deduct is that his team was going on the mission with team Tobirama. Usually, teams are not paired from random teams but rather from those that can work together very well. More or less they knew about each others abilities. Tobi on other hand didn't know a single thing about Edo Tensei, only that it somehow summons dead ninjas.
Yes, this is a forbidden tech and most probably noone knew how it works, not even Tobirama's team but wouldn't Kagami try to figure it out seeing how powerful this techique is? He could have even summoned Madara/Izuna/Hashirama or other powerful ninjas!

Another thing that leads me to think Tobi is not Kagame is the fact Madara knew that the only man who could have waged this war is Tobi. Kagami was in 20s at best, how would a random Uchiha be that powerful that even Madara would acknowledge his might? Madara even said that Tobi has something in mind. How would a young man like Kagami have enough power to wage a world-wide war and have a grand plan of some kind?

This would all work only if Kagami was Madara's apprentice and they worked together, and at some point Kagami betrayed Madara and went on with his own plan. But than how does Zetsu fit in the whole picture? If Madara was the original mastermind than Zetsu should have been his creation. We see that Tobi has zetsu body parts and they trust each other. Why would Zetsu betray Madara for Kagami?

Like is said, this is hardest to disprove and I think there's not much of a point in doing so. Kagami is just a random ninja who we know nothing about, not even a motive behind his actions if he's Tobi.

-The Masked Man is not Izuna

Izuna is dead. He sacrificed his eyes and died in most noble way he could - in battle, as a ninja despite his blindness. Izuna simply lacks motive, knowledge and skill to be Tobi.

We know Madara was superior to Izuna.



"I was born with the greatest, strongest chakra they'd ever seen."
"I obtained flawless Mangekyou Sharingan, and became leader of the Uchiha."


No doubt, Madara was the best Uchiha of his time, so how come this Izuna became most powerful and dreadful being in the world? Even developing incredible Space/Time jutsus that noone else had ever seen.
He sacrificed his eyes for the good of the clan, the same clan that he would later exterminate like rats? All because they wanted peace and didn't want another war with Senju and more casualties in their ranks?

Main reason of why people think Tobi is Izuna is because Madara was expecting to be ressurected and people think that Izuna is the only one who Madara would trust.

Tobi has sharingan, he knows how to release Edo Tensei so why doesn't he put Kabuto under genjutsu (remember he's powerful enough to control Mizukage/Nine Tails) and make him release Edo Madara? He also has rinnegan so he could ressurect him now. Why doesn't he do it? Does it even looks like Tobi cares for Madara?


He was suprised that Kabuto would summon someone of Madara's caliber and he said that there is no point in fighting Kabuto, that would only lessen his own warfighting capabilities. Itachi, Madara, Nagato (and countless of other Edo Tensei's) versus Tobi without Rinnegan? Of course Tobi can't refuse...

I can't really disprove Izuna theory but it has too many contradictions that makes this theory impossible to be right.


- The Masked Man is not Obito




Madara : "Do you know our plan?"

Kabuto : "..unsure if fake Madara (Tobi) will act as planned"

Madara : "this is "his" (Tobi) doing."

Tobi and Madara were working together. It's official now, there's nothing to argue about.

OBITO WASN'T BORN BY THE TIME MADARA WAS STILL ALIVE. HE CAN'T BE TOBI.

More explanation for sceptics and fools :

Madara died shortly activating Rinnegan.


Nagato looked like he was 5-6 years old when he first activated Rinnegan. Madara either inplanted them into Nagato when he was infant or very young (3-4 years old).


Nagato learned all jutsus Jiraya taught him at the age of 10. Jiraya was 20-25 years old by then. Jiraya died at the age of 54. Nagato's age : 54-10(15) = 44(39).

Madara said he activated Rinnegan shortly before dying. Madara personaly knew Nagato. Nagato activated his rinnegan at the age of 5-6 years. Madara was already dead by that time. That's about 35-40 years prior to current events.

Obito, nor Shisui was not alive at that moment. Shisui at best could be a little baby, that's if you suggest he was about 30 years old by the time he died.

-The Masked Man is not Shisui

It's not Shisui. When Tobi attacked leaf he had his flame pattern mask, the same mask he was using when he approached Itachi.



To think that Itachi would not be able to recognize his own best friend, is silly to say the least.


Shisui has MS, Tobi doesn't. Both of Shisui eyes are taken/destroyed. His body was taken by Danzou. He even took Shisui right arm to reduce the draining effect of the Sharingans.

This is a speculation but I think that Shisui even made a deal with Danzou, they certainly had the same ideology (self sacrifice of shinobi who protects the village within it's shadows). He gave him his eye so Danzou could protect the village and asked for him to take care of his body after he dies(erase his existance). This could be the reason why Kabuto couldn't find his body.

Tobi has incredible Space/Time jutsus while Shisui doesn't have any. Tobi is an old man while Shisui was in his late 20s - early 30s when he died.

Tobi has extensive knowledge about Madara,Hashirama and their time. Shisui couldn't have known this. This is not something that is written on the stone monument.

Also, look at "Masked Man is not Obito" for most importan reason why it can't be Shisui.



The Kyuubi Incident

- Masked Man’s sudden attack on the Leaf Village

Comment: I gave some thought to it and so far I could only come up with two decent reasons for Masked Man's actions:

1) To frame the Uchiha

The Leaf Village Elders knew that Uchiha's were planning for coup d'etat and they were pressing 3rd Hokage to get to terminate the problem.
Hiruzen, being the good person he is, believed in handling things peacefully and did not agree with Elders. He believed that there is a way to comprimise without bloodshed. Following the Nine Tails incident, the Elders pressed Hiruzen even more. Breaking under the pressure he agreed and gave the go ahead. His view on the matter was the same as Itachi's. He knew that something had to be done, otherwise the whole village, the fire country and perhaps the whole ninja world could fall in to the state of chaos. Killing for the "greater good".

You may be wondering why would Tobi would help bring about the death of the Uchiha Clan? Well, there many possible reasons:

- He may have wanted to collect all the left over sharingans for his own means (reason unknown)

- He may have wanted to prevent anyone else from obtaining Rinnegan (ex. Oro, Danzou)

- For all we know he might have truly despised the Uchihas. In his eyes they could have been failures and disgrace to him. They lost to the Senjus and were essentially their pets. Tobi respects power, that's partially why he admires Hashirama. It's almost as though Tobi carried out Madara's vengenance on the Uchiha for him. First, by using the 9 tail fox to mislead the Senju. Then by helping Itachi kill everyone. The Leaf thought that the Uchihas were the only ninjas capable of controlling the 9 tailed fox. The Leaf/Senju assumed that the Uchiha were trying to debilitate the village leading up to the coup d'etat.

2) To obtain the Kyuubi. You might be thinking: "But he can't seal Kyuubi in gedo mazo, you need to seal it from the lowest tail to highest, otherwise the statue will collapse!". That is true, he couldn't seal it in Gedo Mazo just yet but he had a perfect jinchuurikki at his disposal - The fourth Mizukage.


Yagura was said to be one of the people who could fully control his bijuu. We know that 3-tails was roaming free when Akatsuki went after it.


"It was also stated by Tsunade in the anime that the Three-Tails disappeared after a great war."

Apparently, Tobi released three tails from Yagura to seal the Nine tails in him. It fits perfectly in the timeline and it would explain why the hell Tobi choose to control Yagura.

What bugs me here is that extracting bijuu almost always ends in the Jinchuurikki's death. How did Yagura survive the extraction?

Room for Speculation?!

- Far fetched Idea

Comment: Madara could very well have been apprentice or accomplice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the everlasting hate between their clans). He was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He may have been the one who promised to resurrect Madara after he dies. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and resurrect the Juubi. After that failed, he had an option to either resurrect Madara or to find a new and better host for Rinnegan – Nagato.
You know, I am starting to think that he may have used Madara all along just to get his dirty hands on Rinnegan and Hashiramas cells.


In this page:

Notice how Uchiha Madara refers to the Masked Man ... Madara knows of the "plan". He knows the Masked Man!

- Wait a sec? Can it get even more far fetched?

Comment: SUPER INTERESTING FACT! EVERYTHING THAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE MANGA IS SOMEHOW LINKED TO THIS MASKED MAN. ex. 4th hokage's death, Hidden mist activities, Akatsuki, Pain/Nagato, Uchiha Clan massacre, current War, etc, etc. He is the cause of all the major events and problems in Naruto universe. ALL PART OF THE PLAN!

- Analysis of Madara's choice of words in ch. 560

Comment:



Madara says:

"That someone was able to revive me in this kind of state... This is "his" doing.."

The problem is that most reader's mistakenly assume that Madara meant his state as the Edo Tensei summon. When, in fact, he may have meant "This state.." as the state of war/situation they are in.

I'll probably add more to this post periodically. I think it’s pretty strong. But, feel free to correct me and suggest better options of whom Tobi may be.

Note: there may be a few contradictions in this post b/c it was written by two people

Made by EternalMangekyouRinnegan & opt4shenanigans
 
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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Tobi’s Enigma
- Wait a sec? Can it get even more far fetched?

Comment: SUPER INTERESTING FACT! EVERYTHING THAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE MANGA IS SOMEHOW LINKED TO THIS MASKED MAN. ex. 4th hokage's death, Hidden mist activities, Akatsuki, Pain/Nagato, Uchiha Clan massacre, current War, etc, etc. ALL PART OF THE PLAN!
Adding more to this idea :

If we assume that the Masked Man is Elder son of the Sage than everything LITERALY happened because of him. Going against his fathers will and challenging his brother for what he thought was rightfuly his, is what began all the events and major problems in Naruto universe. He is the cause of all problems, LITERALY! MIND = BLOWN
 

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Sage was introduced along with the Rinnegan way earlier than his sons :







This can only mean that Uchiha clan's ancestor swirly doujutsu is not a mistake of manga! It was drawn by Kishimoto with intention! Elder son eyes are derived from Rinnegan but they are not exactly Rinnegan, it's something similiar but different nonetheless.

Also, take a look what I said in some other thread :

You know that swirl reminds me awefuly alot of Tobi's warp tech. Just sayn.

Kamui = sharingan tech

Tobi's warp = swirly doujutsu tech.

Sharingan = derived from Elder son's doujutsu, obviosly sharingan and it's jutsus are going to be inferior to the doujutsu it derived from.

Kamui = inferior to warp tech of Tobi

The 3rd Databook says : "If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked." This supports my idea even more than before!

That's why Kakashi's kamui is inferior to Tobi's tech and that's why it won't work on Tobi.

Also, Tobi's mask looks like the the swirly doujutsu and his new mask looks like the Juubi doujutsu
Considering that Tobi now has both - rinnegan and sharingan, it could be foreshadowing to us what doujutsu he may have in the future.

As always, Mind = Blown. Keep reading this thread I'll be updating it with interesting ideas and if they are accepted by majority of people I'll add them to the original post.
 
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Baka Sennin

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

i think it's an excellent theory. maybe tobi gave his (swirly) eyes to nagato, who's an uzumaki/senju, in a successful attempt to complete the rinnegan?


deleted the rest since i realised it doesn't make any sense :D
 
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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

i think it's an excellent theory. maybe tobi gave his (swirly) eyes to nagato, who's an uzumaki/senju, in a successful attempt to complete the rinnegan?


tobi's mask and s/t technique, the elder's son's rinnegan and the uzumaki clan's logo are all remarkably similar. this is a bit farfetched, but maybe tobi along with being the elder son was a founder of the uzumaki clan? in an attempt to combine uchiha and senju dna.
Yes, this is an interesting thought(that the uzumaki blood is combined from uchiha and senju).There is a reason Nagato was Uzumaki and not Senju. This is all connected somehow.

Edit : I did some thinking on this matter this is what i have come up with (note: this is a huge speculation but nonetheless it makes sense) :

Seeing as how Naruto, Mito, Kushina and Nagato (only Uzumaki's that have been mentioned) all have huge chakra reserves and strong life force we could assume they have a portion of Senju's powers. Now the fact that Nagato could actually turn on and off his Rinnegan suggests that Uzmaki, while not having sharingan from birth like Uchiha still have some natural control over it. They have the blood of the Uchiha but not the sharingan.

Nagato activating and disactivating Rinnegan :





Conclusion = he as Uzumaki has the body and chakra of senju, and the blood of Uchiha to control Rinnegan. There is a reason Tobi choosed Uzumaki to be Rinnegans host.
 
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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Yay, it looks so pretty! A lot of work went into it. Last edit I swear. Can you omit the title in the post and eliminate the space. Also, can you change the title of the thread to, "The Enigma of Tobi" without a period.
 

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Yay, it looks so pretty! A lot of work went into it. Last edit I swear. Can you omit the title in the post and eliminate the space. Also, can you change the title of the thread to, "The Enigma of Tobi" without a period.
Yeah, it looks so sexy now :p Thank you for your work!

What do you think about the other comments I made?

I backed up my words about swirly doujutsu not being mistake with manga facts, so it's not just speculation.

Afaik, I can't change the topic name myself but I will ask mod to do it.
 
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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Sage was introduced along with the Rinnegan before the elder son :

See the debut chapter of both characthers

This can only mean that Uchiha clan's ancestor swirly doujutsu is not a mistake it was drawn by Kishimoto with intention! Elder son eyes are derived from the Rinnegan but they are not Rinnegan, it's something similiar but different nonetheless.

Also, take a look what I said in some other thread :

You know that swirl reminds me awefuly alot of Tobi's warp tech. Just sayn.

Tobi's warp = swirly doujutsu tech.

Sharingan = derived from Elder son's doujutsu, obviosly sharingan and it's jutsus are going to be inferior to the doujutsu it derived from.
Woah, The Masked Man's warp technique does look awefully similar to the swirls drawn in the elder brother's eyes. Well there actually a lot of plot holes regarding doujutsu in the manga. We still have no clue how the Byakugan fits in all of this. Remember the masked man is constantly changing his set of eyes. He has many extra pairs.

Wait, I have some questions ... Do we even know how Obito utilizes the Mangekyō Sharingan? Have we even seen it? How does he manipulate space and time?
 
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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

On kyuubi attack - I gave some thought to it, so far I have come up with only two decent reasons for Tobi to do it (of course it was all part of his ingenious plan) :

1)To frame Uchiha.
Elders knew about Uchiha's coup d'etat and they were already planning on how to get rid of them. Hiruzen, being the good guy he is and believing in his way to handle things peacefuly, did not agree with Elders. He believed that there is a way to work this out peacefuly. After the massacre happened, Elders pressed him even more and broken under their pressure he agreed to the "Uchiha massacre" plan. His view on this was the same as Itachis, he knew that something had to be done for the sake of everyone, for the sake of the Village!
You could ask why would Tobi want Uchiha dead? Well, there are dozen of reasons.
He could have wanted to collect all sharingans for himself (reason unknown), he could have wanted to prevent loosing sharingan to wrong hands (e.x. Danzou), he could have wanted to prevent anyone else from having rinnegan (e.x. Oro, Danzou). For all we know he might have despised Uchihas. In his eyes they could have been failures and disgrace to him. They lost to senjus and become as mush as their pets. One thing that Tobi respects is power, that's why he admires Hashirama so much. He might have been "getting rid of the bad roots" as they say.

2)To obtain kyuubi. You will say "but he can't seal kyuubi in gedo mazo, you need to seal it from the lowest tail to highest, so what would he do with kyuubi than?". That is true, he couldn't seal it in Gedo Mazo just yet but he had a perfect jinchuurikki at his disposal - The fourth Mizukage.
Yagura was said to be one of the people who could fully control his bijuu. We know that 3-tails was roaming free when Akatsuki went after it.

"It was also stated by Tsunade in the anime that the Three-Tails disappeared after a great war."

Apparently, Tobi released three tails from Yagura to seal down the Nine tails in him. It fits perfectly in the timeline and it would explain why the hell would Tobi control Yagura.

What bugs me here is that extracting bijuu almost always ends in Jinchuurikkis death.
 
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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Woah, The Masked Man's warp technique does look awefully similar to the swirls drawn in the elder brother's eyes. Well there actually a lot of plot holes regarding doujutsu in the manga. We still haven't have a clue how the Byakugan fits in all of this. Remember the masked man is constantly changing his set of eyes. He has many extra pairs.

Wait, I some questions ... Do we even know how Obito utilizes Mangekyō Sharingan? Have we even seen it? How does he manipulate space and time?
Obito? :D I doubt he has MS or even EMS for that matter. How does he manipulate space and time is still a mystery to me, it has something to do with the original doujutsu of elder son. It could have something to do with the unique perception that these doujutsus grant their users. As we know - time and matter is illusion, and is limited by our eyes and our perception.

On bykugan.. I think it was fail on Kishis part. He wanted to make his story more intersting but as it progressed he realized it would not fit in so he abandoned it. Logicly thinking, byukugan is the weakest of seen doujutsus so it probably mutated from sharingan or maybe it's a fail attempt of the elder son to recreate rinnegan?
 

EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

I wish we would know more about his pocked dimension. It could be a clue to his immortality. If Torune and Fu didn't die there in weeks, this means that time is nonexistant in that dimension.

It's obvious he didn't feed them or gave them water, he snaped Torunes neck without thinking twice. At best he could have kept them there just to suck out information on Konoha/Anbu roots but he didn't care about their lives.
They were kept under his genjutsu as stated in manga.
 
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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

I wish we could know more about his pocket dimension. It could be a clue to his immortality. If Torune and Fu didn't die there in weeks, this means that time is nonexistant in that dimension.
That's a good idea. He can fully munipulate the rules of time and space in his pocket dimension. The miscellaneous powers granted by higher level Sharingan revolve around creation and destruction. Like I stated in the original post, this will ultimately culminate in a doujutsu that affects the very fabric of reality. A complete Izangi.
 

EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Last chapter (560) had me wondering.



The problem is that most of the people mistakenly think that Madara said "This state.." about his state as the Edo Tensei summon when in fact he ment "This state.." as the state of war that is going on at that moment. He then continues and says "It's "his" doing.." which means Madara is aware that the only one capable of creating such chaos is the masked man.

They are definetly not allies, Madara is not aware of his plans(as an ally of Tobi he would have known of his plans) but he's aware that the Masked Man is plotting something.

What is crucial for us is to find out what was the Madara's plan and why did it failed because then we could find out how did it involve Nagato ressurecting Madara and Madara knowing Nagato.
 

Oblargagh

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Some questions.

1. Do we know whether the Senju Clan Ancestor is really dead? What if there is some twist involving him considering he wanted peace for the entire ninja world?

2. What did Tobi want with the Gedō: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu technique? Who did he want to raise?

3. Why does he want to give Gedo Mazo to Sasuke? Why did Nagato have it? What does Gedo Mazo play in all of this?

4. Expand upon Zetsu, the Hasharima clone and the Eye of the Moon Plan.

5. Why does he have all those sharingan?

6. Does Kabuto know all of Tobi's plans?
 

Sarutobi Sasuke

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Last chapter (560) had me wondering.



The problem is that most of the people mistakenly think that Madara said "This state.." about his state as the Edo Tensei summon when in fact he ment "This state.." as the state of war that is going on at that moment. He then continues and says "It's "his" doing.." which means Madara is aware that the only one capable of creating such chaos is the masked man.

They are definetly not allies, Madara is not aware of his plans(as an ally of Tobi he would have known of his plans) but he's aware that the Masked Man is plotting something. I dont

What is crucial for us is to find out what was the Madara's plan and why did it failed because then we could find out how did it involve Nagato ressurecting Madara and Madara knowing Nagato.
You saved me the trouble of trying to explain this to others. So, ill just quote this post if you dont mind of course. Great post.
 

EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

You saved me the trouble of trying to explain this to others. So, ill just quote this post if you dont mind of course. Great post.
No problemo, I edited this post (fixing grammat etc) you can use this one :




"That someone was able to revive me in this kind of state... This is "his" doing.."
The problem is that most of the people mistakenly think that Madara by "This state.." meant his state as the Edo Tensei summon when in fact he ment "This state.." as the state of war/situation they are in.

He then continues and says "It's "his" doing.." which means that Madara is aware of Masked Man and he is sure that only someone of Masked Man's caliber could have caused this war.

"He definetly has something in mind.. but what?"
They don't seem to be allies, Madara is not aware of his plans(as an ally of Tobi he would have known about his plans) but he's aware that the Masked Man is plotting something.

"Things don't seem to be going as according to plan very well."
What is crucial for us is to find out what was this plan of Madara's and why did it failed. Knowing this we could find out how did it involved Madara being aware of Nagato's existance.
 
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EternalMangekyouRinnegan

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Re: Enigma of Tobi.

Some questions.

1. Do we know whether the Senju Clan Ancestor is really dead? What if there is some twist involving him considering he wanted peace for the entire ninja world?

2. What did Tobi want with the Gedō: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu technique? Who did he want to raise?

3. Why does he want to give Gedo Mazo to Sasuke? Why did Nagato have it? What does Gedo Mazo play in all of this?

4. Expand upon Zetsu, the Hasharima clone and the Eye of the Moon Plan.

5. Why does he have all those sharingan?

6. Does Kabuto know all of Tobi's plans?
1. We don't know but it is not in the way of "good guys" to be immortal. They usually trust next generations to handle things after them (e.x. SO6P).

2. The Juubi of course. It's the ultimate source of power. He can literaly do anything when he becomes it's jinchuurikki.

3. He wants Sasuke to synch with it. I guess Gedo Mazo displays some risk for the one who summons it, seeing as how Nagato almost died when he first summoned it. Gedo Mazo is some kind of incubator, it can store chakra and souls. I believe it is crucial for the ressurecting of Juubi as it will have it's fragmented soul (bijuus) and chakra stored in it.

4. This is tricky. We know nothing about zetsu that would atleast slightly tell us of it's genesis. Some people think that White Zetsu was created from Hashiramas cells but there is no such reference in Manga. For all we know Zetsu could represent the Elder and Younger son in a plant like creature. One part of it being Yang and the other one Ying.

Take a look at this page :



Masked Mans says : "The Bijus are one such creation."
Suggesting that there may have been more - *cough* Zetsu *cough*

5. The Uchiha Massacre. He collected all or most of the sharingans from the dead bodies of Uchiha.

6.
I believe Tobi is not lying here. Kabuto may know about most of his plans but the most important part is probably unknown to everyone, except for Zetsu.


P.S. I have edited the main post. It now looks sexier than ever and with more ideas added to it! Also, I'll do a research on the origin of sharingan tomorrow or some other day, probably going to add better facts and evidence to disprove any other popular "Tobi is.." thread so whoever is reading this be sure to check in later.
 
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