Open Dialogue: The Ninja World

Drackos

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Hi all. Before you post I do ask you read everything I'm writing here thoroughly to properly engage with it. This began as a stream of consciousness but I also wanted to use it as an opportunity to tell everyone what to expect going forward in the Ninja World. It's also a chance for you guys to say on site your own thoughts on it. So read what I have to say and let's chat. This will probably be a long one.

The Outer Lands, Expeditions, and Group Activities

We'll open with the first major change in the Ninja World: the Outer Lands. 8 months ago I asked the community a question: "How would you all feel about exploring a new continent in an expedition like manner? i.e. landmarks are locked until an RPer explores it with an appropriate mission/following a story? Or would you rather just have everything open from the get-go?" This question followed a few weeks of brainstorming where I wanted to guide the Ninja World to. I knew the story would inevitably go west. There's always been the question "What is beyond the lands to the western mainland? Does the world simply loop around to Tobusekai?" My response has always been no.

The feedback I received was entirely, and this is not an exaggeration, entirely in favor of expeditionary missions. There was not a single vote/input that indicated they wanted a more guided experience (as opposed to an 'open world' experience where the story is entirely open). Thus, expeditions were born. Over the next several months I worked on the missions. A series of 15 Expeditionary Missions that, as a collective, would guide roleplayers through the lands of Kamiyasumi. The story would be told from two perspectives: the treasure/adventure seeking Champions of Humanity and the Akatsuki, an organization serving the grand design of a mysterious villain in the Ninja World, Imeroth. The Outer Lands as a whole would continue the story from where it left off before: the world on the verge of an event that would distort "reality."

Expeditionary Missions were designed with very broad objectives in mind. The first was to build defenses. I will never defend the idea that this was an engaging or highly interesting part of the story. But no story is written with all highs. If a story was all highs, then there would be no real highs. This is why we have the introduction, rising action, and climax. Because these components give a defined build up to the story and gives it meaning. Now the first problem with many of these missions is that they didn't actually build defenses. I won't pick on anyone in particular but one of the first protests made is how many other types of defenses are there other than walls? My response: are traps not defenses? Are towers not? Golems and other automatons? I do concede that it wasn't interesting; but the interesting aspect of the story is something that you ease into. The other issue raised was the quantity of missions required for each Expeditionary Mission/Operation.

This was difficult to balance and I was very ready to adjust as required. I didn't want a single person grinding out the entire Operation alone, hence the first increase. But I also didn't want them to drag either, hence why I decreased it. But the overall requirement was never particularly high if there was engagement with it. If an Expeditionary Operation required 10 missions (this was roughly the average number between all expeditionary missions) and 5 Champions of Humanity were participating then that's only 2 per person. That's not particularly high and it spreads out the spoils evenly for people.

Now onto rewards. These I kept hidden. I keep rewards hidden for a good reason - I like surprises. When someone begins a Sage Mission or a Special Mission I don't tell them their exact reward. Sage Missions are somewhat transparent; people know that if they pass their likely to get a Sage Weapon. Special Missions have some ambiguous reward attached to them. Maybe a unique type of biography or ability combination. But it is never explicitly stated either and is usually driven by the story itself. Similar logic is applied to Expeditionary Operations - surprises are good, at least I think. It also keeps the immediate focus off the rewards. People are more likely to enjoy the journey rather than just rushing for the end goal. If there is overwhelming opinion that trends in the opposite direction I'll be more transparent with rewards.

However, I'll give a little bit of a taste of some of the rewards that would have come with the Expeditionary Missions:
  • In aggregate there was 150,000 Kumi to split amongst RPers between all the missions.
  • A permanent 25% Kumi and Ryo increase to missions completed in the Outer Lands.
  • A teleportation network setup throughout the Ninja World (connects to all marketplaces; added anyway with the end of EMs).
  • A set of unique Void Infused Artifacts that could tap into the Spacetime Network and give a bio Minato-esque abilities (limited FTG) in the Ninja World.
  • Utu/Suen (this one varied a little bit, wasn't a universal reward)
  • Atavistic Flame, master rank (connected to the Monks).
Rifts

Since we're on the topic of rewards might as well segue into Rifts. So Rifts are a concept that I began working on very slowly after the Irkalla Raid. The first major piece of feedback I got was, 'We liked this, but make it for fewer people.' Okay, that can work. Being me and the particular asshole that I am I don't like just introducing them instantly. I plan ahead and had other things I wanted to work on, especially with Sage Missions ongoing parallel to the Underworld Raid and subsequent arcs. I also wanted more time to digest the Raid, see its pitfalls, see its successes, and go from there. And I like introducing things with story rather than just spontaneously. Sue me. So Rifts. What the **** are Rifts?

"Rifts will becoming to the NW in the future. These are planned to be 3 RPer activities similar to the raid we had but for fewer people. The term "rift" will make more sense in the future when it's released in the proper context."

A Rift is a higher difficulty activity designed around 1-3 roleplayers, though leaning toward the 2-3 part of the scale. I won't make many meant for a single RPer because the Dark Tower does exist for a reason. These are similar to the raid in that they are high difficulty enemies designed with particular loot pools. Some of this "loot" is unique to the "encounter" (i.e. a necklace that belongs to a witch). Others have more generic loot pools. Maybe you win a Tier 4 ability, like EIG and permission to put it on your biography. When I designed these I was less inclined to give away specific canon biographies. That hardly seemed organic and there are other complications with that as well. Though it isn't impossible either.

Rift Mechanics:

What is a Rift, then? A Rift will be a pocket in spacetime that an RPer can enter. Why there are spacetime pockets in certain landmarks will make sense in the future. I don't want to spoil that, though even just saying this will probably give some people who have been keen on following the story clues into what might be happening. These pockets will take someone either into the future, past, or something else entirely to face off against a single boss or a series of bosses (or other 'encounters,' like a puzzle). Rift will be a 1-3 person activity and leans toward 2-3. Succeeding will feature unique rewards while failure will be met with nothing.

Now these are logistically challenging. First off creating a unique boss isn't an easy undertaking in itself. When I make bosses for the Ninja World I try to take stock of what are particularly dominant fields right now. My boss can't be a pushover but also can't be unbeatable. Sometimes a boss's deficiency might be a story mechanic as well, i.e. the introduction of God-Slaying Tools. However, for Rifts these bosses will largely be unrelated to the overarching story. They might be tangentially related through smaller regional stories (see more on this below), however. But overall these bosses will be designed less with gimmicky mechanics (i.e. having a GST, though this might happen once or twice) and more with clearly defined weaknesses that a RPer can engage with on their biography. I also want to reward people for fulfilling certain roles in their endeavors. Hence the Tier 2 GST - clearly defined roles that give insane benefits to a particular "specialization." Healer, tank, DPS are the buzzwords that pop up here.

Now the term lockout pops up here as well. What is a "lockout?" This is a time period you have to wait before you can engage the Rift again. Now consider the Irkalla Raid, a 9 RPer activity (was flexible) that took about 6 months (9 if you consider storylines for some people). This was for four bosses. The raid took longer as well because it was a logistical hurdle for 9 people. Though I just want to be clear at no point did my own response pace slow down during it. There were periods where the raiders just couldn't get a move out, once again owing to their larger bloated size. I also have to consider my own, my mods, and my sensei's sanity. Burnout is a real thing. So I don't want people failing (or succeeding, these things will be repeatable) and just running up to them again a few days later. I need to make sure other people have a chance and I need to make sure I, and my surrogates, have a chance to recover a bit.

Remember this isn't a video game. Real humans are here maintaining things, however slow that might manifest (and rightfully frustratingly so). Sometimes it's a struggle especially when we have our own jobs, lives, and loved ones to tend to. Please be nice. We do try - I consider the NW to be my baby at times. I really do care and what you to have fun.

So yeah, that covers Rifts. I hope they'll be exciting.

Regional Storylines

So I experimented this a little while back with regional storylines. It didn't really generate much interest. This was an event that took place during Arc 21 when a rebellion took place in LoK's village, the Village Hidden in the Valley. Only two people participated in the sensei run missions in that region. Just two.

Yet a few weeks ago there was a sudden outburst of interest for these types of stories. Okay, fine. But I was puzzled by this. Why? Remember, these things do take some time and energy to create. One of the responses to this strange conundrum was that it was related to the 'main story.' Well, okay. But why is that an issue? Is this not an interconnected world? Didn't we move away from a Ninja World with separate storylines so we could integrate it into one "timeline."

This is one of the more open ended parts of this. I do want to capitalize on more areas of the Ninja World, especially on a regional level. But I also like having an interconnected story. So maybe a regional warlord in the Land of Fire rebelling against a capital might trigger a famine in the far west where grain is no longer flowing to because of the rebellion. Currently I'm in the planning stages for regional stories. Your feedback here matters.

Final Thoughts

I'm always open to hear feedback (hence this thread) or privately in DMs. I'll probably add more to this as time goes on. But I wanted to talk about these things since they're fairly recent events.
 

Zatanna

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Expeditionary Missions were designed with very broad objectives in mind. The first was to build defenses. I will never defend the idea that this was an engaging or highly interesting part of the story. But no story is written with all highs. If a story was all highs, then there would be no real highs. This is why we have the introduction, rising action, and climax. Because these components give a defined build up to the story and gives it meaning. Now the first problem with many of these missions is that they didn't actually build defenses. I won't pick on anyone in particular but one of the first protests made is how many other types of defenses are there other than walls? My response: are traps not defenses? Are towers not? Golems and other automatons? I do concede that it wasn't interesting; but the interesting aspect of the story is something that you ease into. The other issue raised was the quantity of missions required for each Expeditionary Mission/Operation.
I feel like the reason this failed is because it was specifically too broad. The idea that you had 10 missions around the concept of 'build defences' gave players too much freedom. If someone gets there before me and they spend a mission to build walls, traps and golems, then i spend the next mission building towers and traps and walls, what is left for the next player to build? and that is jsut 2 missions. Even if you simply set goals like
"You have 10 missions to do these objectives but each mission can only fufill one objective" its still giving creativity to the player instead of letting them do everything. Youre giving them direction but also letting them choose what they want.
I think a big thing is that yes players want the freedom to do what they want but they also need a hook or lure as to what they need to do. You can give people paths to follow without restricting what they want to do. The example i was given when I first started DMing for D&D is if you ask someone "Do you want to build a house" and they answer yes, and you give them an open field, they still wont know how to build a house despite them wanting to. But if you give them the materials like "Here is lumber, here is bricks and here is the requirements for what a house needs" then youre not telling them what to do, youre giving them a path to follow.



Now onto rewards. These I kept hidden. I keep rewards hidden for a good reason - I like surprises. When someone begins a Sage Mission or a Special Mission I don't tell them their exact reward. Sage Missions are somewhat transparent; people know that if they pass their likely to get a Sage Weapon. Special Missions have some ambiguous reward attached to them. Maybe a unique type of biography or ability combination. But it is never explicitly stated either and is usually driven by the story itself. Similar logic is applied to Expeditionary Operations - surprises are good, at least I think. It also keeps the immediate focus off the rewards. People are more likely to enjoy the journey rather than just rushing for the end goal. If there is overwhelming opinion that trends in the opposite direction I'll be more transparent with rewards.

However, I'll give a little bit of a taste of some of the rewards that would have come with the Expeditionary Missions:
  • In aggregate there was 150,000 Kumi to split amongst RPers between all the missions.
  • A permanent 25% Kumi and Ryo increase to missions completed in the Outer Lands.
  • A teleportation network setup throughout the Ninja World (connects to all marketplaces; added anyway with the end of EMs).
  • A set of unique Void Infused Artifacts that could tap into the Spacetime Network and give a bio Minato-esque abilities (limited FTG) in the Ninja World.
  • Utu/Suen (this one varied a little bit, wasn't a universal reward)
  • Atavistic Flame, master rank (connected to the Monks).
A big issue I think is the rewards you choose for missions sometimes. With Kumi now being redundant because of tests now required for the upper echelon of abilities, youre effectively throwing paper at people who own a paper mill. Most people, if not all already have all the abilities they want/need to buy with kumi. Someone who has been working on their bio and already have all the t3 and below abilities doesnt need kumi. If Im trying to progress to get EMS or advance my bio to the next stage, I dont need Kumi. Yes, abilities that are released that cost kumi are great but if we are looking at what has been released since the introduction of tests, its just Atavastic Flame that has cost Kumi. In the T4 and above catagory only Yin and Yang can be bought. and because the current trend is that you need abilities above t3 to compete or at least be effective, everything below is not looked at. I think showing the pool of rewards at least at the start of the exapansion could have helped with incentive. I know you want to keep it secret but even jsut showing them can drive incentive without telling how you can get it.
The main point however is kumi at the time for most of us isnt needed anymore.

Edit: to clarify, Im not saying or suggesting there shouldn't be kumi rewards, but at this point they arent the best rewards.

term "rift" will make more sense in the future when it's released in the proper context."

A Rift is a higher difficulty activity designed around 1-3 roleplayers, though leaning toward the 2-3 part of the scale. I won't make many meant for a single RPer because the Dark Tower does exist for a reason. These are similar to the raid in that they are high difficulty enemies designed with particular loot pools. Some of this "loot" is unique to the "encounter" (i.e. a necklace that belongs to a witch). Others have more generic loot pools. Maybe you win a Tier 4 ability, like EIG and permission to put it on your biography. When I designed these I was less inclined to give away specific canon biographies. That hardly seemed organic and there are other complications with that as well. Though it isn't impossible either.
Well you already know what I think about it, I think its a good idea. I think treating them like actual dungeons without the trash mobs would work sufficiently and having bosses with loot pools shown would work. My suggestion would be to have the dungeon mentioned in the start of the thread with a spoiler for the loot pool for what the boss drops. I dont think you need to show the percentage for what they drop but as i said above, knowing the potential for what you can get is still a good incentive and keeps players interested in coming back for more.
I think that also updating the map, the RP map that has all the landmarks, with the dungeons marked, would also be a good feature to show where they are, even if it was something like a star, which could be colour coded to show how many people are needed. eg yellow for 1, orange for 2 people and red for 3 people.

I get that burnout and resource managemant for people is a real thing, but I severely hope that the decision isnt made that if you do one dungeon youre locked out for the arc of all dungeons. I think that would be a poor choice seeing as though you could do one, fail, then you have to wait sometimes over 3 or 4 months to try again. I think that if successful it can lock you out of that specific dungeon for the arc, or potentially maybe a month, depending on how active mods/sensei are.

This is one of the more open ended parts of this. I do want to capitalize on more areas of the Ninja World, especially on a regional level. But I also like having an interconnected story. So maybe a regional warlord in the Land of Fire rebelling against a capital might trigger a famine in the far west where grain is no longer flowing to because of the rebellion. Currently I'm in the planning stages for regional stories. Your feedback here matters.
While I understand it can be exhausting running all the stories and micromanaging the little NPC's and events, I think having actual quest lines that are clearly displayed would be a big help. Players understanding and knowing what they are doing instead of giving a description of what is happening. Instead of saying "this area is over run with people, go investigate it" have actual quests that have a specific objective. Again, this allows people to have a goal in mind and then go about it how ever they want, and create NPCs
My suggestion would be to have a thread of the land that looks like this

Quest line:
(1) - Investigate the undead in X (D rank)
(2) - Explore the temple where the undead are coming from (C)
(3) - Kill the undead lich raising skeleton and find ties to the old man in town(B)
(4) - Interrogate the man in town for the source of the Lich powers (C)
(5) - Go find the lich's phylactery and destroy it (A)
(6) - Go back to town and find it under attack by skeletons and kill the man who has transformed into a skeletal overlord (S)

So you give them an actual quest line to follow but they can create the NPCs or stories they want, and there is a reward at the end, where players can submit all the completed missions for the quest line to get a unique reward to the story. That would be my suggestion.
 
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I submit the following preface: I am not an active member. I am trying to participate more and more, but I have not been around for the last few Arcs and have only really gotten my feet under me in this Arc - in that sense, despite my familiarity to everyone here, I am essentially a new player.

Additionally, I have not succeeded well on being active. I achieve my one goal of acquiring my GST, but even that took some time due to real-life obligations, and of course, Elden Ring, which I won't deny pulled me away from a lot of my other hobbies, the RP included.

Further, I don't think I was able to/don't remember giving input on the premise of the explority missions prior to the arc, but may have done so, and if so, apologize for any frustration development in this direction caused you.

Also - I intend to sprinkle in some of my opinions as a Game Master for a different game. You are free to dismiss any and all comments - either as a "new" RPer or a Game Master - as you see fit.

The Outer Lands, Expeditions, and Group Activities
I did not - and still do not - have problems with the premise of the Exploratory Missions, including the "low points" as you describe of creating defenses. As you mentioned, it is difficult to have things be engaging at all times, and personally I understand that. I'll admit my defense submission was rather underwhelming. I blame this on my own lack of understanding on what degree of influence I have as an RPer in the NW. When I saw other players using Ninjutsu to create large structures in what are effectively moments, I had a bit of stunted imagination on what I could accomplish as a Ronin. We were making a forward encampment - were there even enough "NPC individuals" for me to teach rudimentary CQC to form a militia? Making a structure of any sort would take me too long of a timeline in story, with too much effort, compared to what my compatriots with Ninjutsu could accomplish. I also slightly blame my "newness" and lack of presence in the NW - Musashi is, for all intents and purposes, a nobody at the moment. She has no notoriety and no weight behind her words or actions.

This does not excuse a lack of creativity on my part, as you pointed out with the presence of traps.

I understand that the pace taken by the community for the Exploratory Missions was slow, and as you mentioned, 2 per person does not seem to a be a tremendous ask, especially at C-Rank. I was, myself, considering doing several, especially since my next set goal was Explorer.

I did not - personally - have an issue with the quantity of Missions, and feel you handled community feedback to the matter rather well.

Also, I do not, as a player, mind the rewards being hidden. There was an incentive to us (do the missions for a free S-rank's worth of Kumi, for a C rank!) to do the missions, and the extra rewards would follow suit, as an exciting bonus, even if we could not have known that at the time. Looking at the rewards you plan to offer, from my perspective (on an account that does not have years of abilities to fall back on), they are all good an enticing, with a lot to earn.

As a Game Master, I feel you did well. There are always low-points in a game, and it is our duty to adjust to make things bearable and respond to our players.

THERE IS A SOCIETAL CONTRACT THAT MUST BE SIGNED BY BOTH THE PLAYERS AND THE GAME MASTER TO RESPECT EACH OTHER'S TIME AND EFFORT. THE GM IS JUST ANOTHER PLAYER, ONLY ONE WITH A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ROLE.

This is something the community needs to realize too - even if somethings is slow/seems unfun, it still required work on the GM's part to put together. As a GM, sometimes that means showing your hand a bit more than you want to to entice the players, or sweetening the amount of gold you want to throw at them to entice the players, or throwing in a complication to engage them and entice the players. If I had to take a guess, I'd wager that maybe the exploratory missions should have, as the introduction aspect of the Arc - even if meant to be a low point - had a bit of a hand-curated engagement by the GM with the community. However, when the community doesn't engage at all (which seems to have been the issue until lately), there's only so much you can do as a GM. If the player's don't play, well, you can't make them.

The world moves on without the players. If they don't act, they don't influence the world. If the heroes don't stop the world ending evil, the world ends. As the GM, you provided a story and the heroes the chance to act. They either failed to act or failed to succeed. If done fairly by both parties, the next step is: ways to fix it, reverse it, start repairs, etc. From what I have seen of your work, I think you would have no issue with this.

Its on the community to be more vocal to express what they like and don't like. If they say they like something, only to find out they don't, its on them to explain that to the GM. Its on the GM to be flexible and responsive to those inputs, while both sides respect the time and effort each puts in, and realizing sometimes that means engaging with something that may not be the "best" for you. But that is part of the beautiful dance of a collaborative story-telling RPG, like a table-top RPG.


From what I have read, I see no reason why the rifts won't be a great introduction, and I look forward to engaging them! I love the Dark Tower - even if it was way above my power level to manage at the time. But that's fun, to show that there are bigger, stronger threats in the world! At some point, I'll have amassed enough power to fight in the Dark Tower, and also have a presence on the NW stage, I hope. I struggled to even survive against Starrk..and Xylon absolutely toyed with him.

Rifts being a somewhat middle-ground between the Tower and Raids is awesome. You know I play Destiny, and a Dungeon like middle ground would be awesome.

I also love the loot concept that you poached, as its one of the ways I really think the RP could expand.

As far as the rift mechanics go, I have zero issue. I believe Pokemon Legends: Arceus does something similar, and personally I believe we are so far beyond a Naruto Roleplay that breaking convention for what would be considered "true to form" is necessary for us to evolve the game as we want. We're more of a Naruto-based Role Play at this point, than a strict Naruto Role Play.

I'm curious - if a bit nervous - of the "requirements" for the Rifts. I'm a Ronin so there's not much I can do besides "DPS" or "Tank" if I'm lucky. I can't really play a "support" role. I am not the type of player who can't accept that there is content I can't do (I have not been and never will be able to go Flawless in Trials of Osiris), but want to make it clear that I don't dislike mechanics that require a roll. Its rewarding when your specific skillset is useful, not just "anyone who can do damage". It seems like you're acknoweldging things like "need DPS" and "Need Ronin DPS" and as long as those things are balanced well, I will remain excited for this and see no reason it should fail!

As a GM, I also think the Rifts are a great introduction. You need things in the world for the players to engage with - meaningfully - between "save the kitten" and "Kill God." Missions and such fill those holes too, but are more like grinding XP and gold from random encounters in an RPG when they don't advance the overall plot. These are unique dungeons to explore to do that more efficiently, or to try for better "gear". Just like running Dungeons in a RPG, I see no reason why this couldn't work well, as long as everyone communicates intent and gives feedback.

I am also super willing - as a player and GM - to accommodate for burnout. I've been there. This is a hobby, not a job, and burnout makes it worse and unfun for everyone involved. I would like to think that everyone here can be respectful and acknowledge that, but...I've been away a while, and am not super ingrained in things yet.

As far as the "mechanics" go, my only suggestion is make sure there's either always more than one out, or be prepared to adjust on the fly. Sometimes I make puzzles or dungeons or fights with a clear progression in my mind, and the players go completely off the fucking rails. Being agile helps keep everyone involved having fun, and from being bogged down. And if the players don't interact with your mechanic like you thought they would ("You were supposed to fill the basin with water from the fountain, not your blood!") be able to adjust and simply tuck that mechanic away in your back pocket for later. The beauty of being a GM is that your work is never truly wasted. You just recycle it, tweak it a bit, and use it somewhere else. ;)

Regional Storylines
As a player, I wasn't around much for this, but my general input here is: Hell yeah, bring it. I love interacting with the GMs lore and seeing things, and being able to influence it as I do so. I can't speak for others, but if I can be active, I would always love stuff like that.

I will fully admit - if this would detract from the cohesiveness of the main-story, I'd rather that not happen. The Plot, from what I've seen, has been fantastic, and I'm trying to get involved in it because it appears to have been so great.

The only suggestion I have is to let other players manage regional stories (perhaps pitching the rewards in secret to the staff, etc, with approval of the overview of what the regional story is supposed to be), but that has obvious issues (commitment, engagement, etc), but...that's anything.

As a GM, I say hell yeah. Filling out the world is always great, and gives more content for your players to engage with. But don't get so sidetracked and caught up in the details that you detract from what they are engaging with. Sprinkle a few dungeons/plots here or there that you have prepped, sure, but if your players don't interact with it, don't make more. Try to be a step or two ahead of how they consume it, but if they ride the railroads of the main plot, why waste the effort?

But if they go off track and are suddenly like "Man, I really want to know why this one part of the Land of Waves is suddenly having this mysterious illness, around the time these women became abducted" and start following that track - go for it! Make the content!

The specific nature of the NWRP makes it a particularly evolving scenario, where I feel it might be self-defeating to plan out too far ahead. But, I also have no grasp of your ability to read and predict the players, so it may be different. I find myself reacting to my players a lot, and thus thank my improve skills and ability to adjust content I've already made on the fly, but I don't know if that's a skill you have or want, or one that translates to this game.

Final Thoughts
As a player, I think you are doing a fantastic job. Most of my "gripes" if you can even call them that, is simply that I am too new, and trying to sprint to get involved in the plot. No one's at fault there.

I see a lot of potential in the NWRP and actively want to interact with it and be involved, and feel I'm mostly limited by my own activity.

As a GM, I think you have a wonderful thing going on here. There's obviously a lot of time and effort and care and love put into this, and I think most people always see that. I don't see sentiments of "I hate the NW RP", but "I love the NWRP and want to make it even better and more fun".

Its easy to get caught up on the minor gripes or focus on the negative aspects ("why did my puzzle go so badly?") and lose track of just how well you are doing.

Part of that is asking your players every so often - like you have done here! - "Hey, how am I doing? Are you having fun? Are there things I should stop doing? Things I should do more?" and adjusting.

And when running an RPG, realizing that sometimes you may have to retread old ground, or undo things, because the players grow bored or want to try something different, etc. As long as the players understand that these things take time and effort and respect your work and input as what is essentially another player of the game, albeit with a very different role, then I see no issue.

I reiterate - as both a player and a GM - you have made something fantastic here. Its amazing, flaws and all, and I can't wait to see more of it and how it grows, even if I do so at a frustratingly slow pace.
 

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Something id like to suggest for a potential future addition, maybe "reputations"? Might sound ridiculous to people that don't play MMO's but I think Drackos and Rexii would know the idea what Im about to mention.

The idea of certain factions in the world, we already have Spider, and the Void Lords, but I was thinking that maybe if each marketplace was run by a certain faction. So doing missions in certain areas would add a certain amount of points to your reputation with them and you have to reach a higher rep to buy the better items or have access to better items. These can be integrated to the local stories or quest lines as well, such each mission give extra reputation, or they could even be used as markers for the reputation levels so reaching quest number 3 unlocks the rank 2 rep level.

It could be something like Land of lightning marketplace produces higher grade weapon artifacts or Land of Fire produces better Fuuinjutsu based artifacts etc. Or potentially you get discounts as well. Like say there are 3 or 4 'levels' of reputation.
Rank 1 - Everyone has access to.
Rank 2 - 25% discount
Rank 3 - extra items to buy from
Rank 4 - The best items to buy from them (forbidden rank stuff, strong t4 or t5 level items or scrolls)
Rank 5 - 50% off all items in marketplace.
Not all of them have to follow this same format maybe one lets you take special missions or something. jsut an idea off the top of the head.

Might take a bit of groundwork to work out what each one would specialize in and create the specific artefacts, but I think a reputation could be fun. You could make it either you can max out all reps for the best deals everywhere, or if you grow rep with one faction a different one goes down because theyre competition.
 
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Okay - let's dissect and respond.

I feel like the reason this failed is because it was specifically too broad. The idea that you had 10 missions around the concept of 'build defences' gave players too much freedom. If someone gets there before me and they spend a mission to build walls, traps and golems, then i spend the next mission building towers and traps and walls, what is left for the next player to build? and that is jsut 2 missions. Even if you simply set goals like
"You have 10 missions to do these objectives but each mission can only fufill one objective" its still giving creativity to the player instead of letting them do everything. Youre giving them direction but also letting them choose what they want.
I think a big thing is that yes players want the freedom to do what they want but they also need a hook or lure as to what they need to do. You can give people paths to follow without restricting what they want to do. The example i was given when I first started DMing for D&D is if you ask someone "Do you want to build a house" and they answer yes, and you give them an open field, they still wont know how to build a house despite them wanting to. But if you give them the materials like "Here is lumber, here is bricks and here is the requirements for what a house needs" then youre not telling them what to do, youre giving them a path to follow.
My first concern is the last time I did something like this (a little over a year ago now, communal missions) people complained there wasn't enough freedom. Can you give more clarity on the colored portion? It's a little contradictory; on one hand you want me to give freedom but that I should give very explicit direction.

A big issue I think is the rewards you choose for missions sometimes. With Kumi now being redundant because of tests now required for the upper echelon of abilities, youre effectively throwing paper at people who own a paper mill. Most people, if not all already have all the abilities they want/need to buy with kumi. Someone who has been working on their bio and already have all the t3 and below abilities doesnt need kumi. If Im trying to progress to get EMS or advance my bio to the next stage, I dont need Kumi. Yes, abilities that are released that cost kumi are great but if we are looking at what has been released since the introduction of tests, its just Atavastic Flame that has cost Kumi. In the T4 and above catagory only Yin and Yang can be bought. and because the current trend is that you need abilities above t3 to compete or at least be effective, everything below is not looked at. I think showing the pool of rewards at least at the start of the exapansion could have helped with incentive. I know you want to keep it secret but even jsut showing them can drive incentive without telling how you can get it.
The main point however is kumi at the time for most of us isnt needed anymore.

Edit: to clarify, Im not saying or suggesting there shouldn't be kumi rewards, but at this point they arent the best rewards.
So see above; Suen/Utu were rewards for the Expeditionary Missions at a certain point. Obviously this was not explicitly stated. As for Kumi being redundant - it still has a lot of uses. It still buys custom slots. That's pretty massive for some people. So sure you're not buying EMS, Hamura, or Isshiki with Kumi anymore you still have effectively infinite custom slots now.

Well you already know what I think about it, I think its a good idea. I think treating them like actual dungeons without the trash mobs would work sufficiently and having bosses with loot pools shown would work. My suggestion would be to have the dungeon mentioned in the start of the thread with a spoiler for the loot pool for what the boss drops. I dont think you need to show the percentage for what they drop but as i said above, knowing the potential for what you can get is still a good incentive and keeps players interested in coming back for more.
I think that also updating the map, the RP map that has all the landmarks, with the dungeons marked, would also be a good feature to show where they are, even if it was something like a star, which could be colour coded to show how many people are needed. eg yellow for 1, orange for 2 people and red for 3 people.

I get that burnout and resource managemant for people is a real thing, but I severely hope that the decision isnt made that if you do one dungeon youre locked out for the arc of all dungeons. I think that would be a poor choice seeing as though you could do one, fail, then you have to wait sometimes over 3 or 4 months to try again. I think that if successful it can lock you out of that specific dungeon for the arc, or potentially maybe a month, depending on how active mods/sensei are.
It wouldn't be for an entire arc, at least not for the longer arcs. Some arcs only last a month.

I'll get to KE's post in a bit.
 
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Okay - let's dissect and respond.
My first concern is the last time I did something like this (a little over a year ago now, communal missions) people complained there wasn't enough freedom. Can you give more clarity on the colored portion? It's a little contradictory; on one hand you want me to give freedom but that I should give very explicit direction.
As explained at the end of the post, I think having quest lines gives a bit of direction while still allowing freedom. A similar point that Keotsu made is, we are a bit unsure of what is and isnt allowed when it comes to certain aspects of the ninja world when it comes to the story. Sure, in the mainlands we can write what ever we want or do what ever we want as long is it doesnt affect the main story or history of the world, thats a give and understood. However when it comes to this new continent, it can be a bit daunting and confusing to say "go explore" when we aren't really sure what we are looking for or need to write about. On the flip side of that, if I go to a landmark and write about scouting for anything or looking for stuff, how long should I wait before a Mod interacts with it or becomes involved. How will I know if anything is there to interact with?
As an example, if I go to a certain landmark that has something to do, do I go post, wait a day and if nothing happens do I move on? Understandably, Mods can get busy and miss things, so I would be unsure if i need to wait around a landmark for 3 days or a week to see if something happens. if not, then it feels frustrating that I would have waited a week for nothing. With the new Outer lands have nice descriptions and landmark identifies, it can be a bit of a coin flip to see whether something is there to be investigated. Some might be obvious, but others might not be.
Speaking on a personal level here now, Id prefer to have distinct identifiable objectives within a landmark. Whether its a quest written in the landmark description which updates over time with the story or whether there's a quest log on the notice board. This can also be regulated so one person doesnt go and smash out every single one by limiting participation to 1 landmark quest per arc or something similar.

So see above; Suen/Utu were rewards for the Expeditionary Missions at a certain point. Obviously this was not explicitly stated. As for Kumi being redundant - it still has a lot of uses. It still buys custom slots. That's pretty massive for some people. So sure you're not buying EMS, Hamura, or Isshiki with Kumi anymore you still have effectively infinite custom slots now.
As I said, I dont think that Kumi shouldn't be removed as a reward, I know it can be used. However for those that dont need it (such as dont trade, still have custom slots open etc), when you see that Kumi is the only reward, theres not much for an incentive, hence the suggestion to show the entire pool at the start of an event/story/arc.
 

Lili-Chwan

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Hi all. Before you post I do ask you read everything I'm writing here thoroughly to properly engage with it. This began as a stream of consciousness but I also wanted to use it as an opportunity to tell everyone what to expect going forward in the Ninja World. It's also a chance for you guys to say on site your own thoughts on it. So read what I have to say and let's chat. This will probably be a long one.
Let's go!

The Outer Lands, Expeditions, and Group Activities

We'll open with the first major change in the Ninja World: the Outer Lands. 8 months ago I asked the community a question: "How would you all feel about exploring a new continent in an expedition like manner? i.e. landmarks are locked until an RPer explores it with an appropriate mission/following a story? Or would you rather just have everything open from the get-go?" This question followed a few weeks of brainstorming where I wanted to guide the Ninja World to. I knew the story would inevitably go west. There's always been the question "What is beyond the lands to the western mainland? Does the world simply loop around to Tobusekai?" My response has always been no.

The feedback I received was entirely, and this is not an exaggeration, entirely in favor of expeditionary missions. There was not a single vote/input that indicated they wanted a more guided experience (as opposed to an 'open world' experience where the story is entirely open). Thus, expeditions were born. Over the next several months I worked on the missions. A series of 15 Expeditionary Missions that, as a collective, would guide roleplayers through the lands of Kamiyasumi. The story would be told from two perspectives: the treasure/adventure seeking Champions of Humanity and the Akatsuki, an organization serving the grand design of a mysterious villain in the Ninja World, Imeroth. The Outer Lands as a whole would continue the story from where it left off before: the world on the verge of an event that would distort "reality."

Expeditionary Missions were designed with very broad objectives in mind. The first was to build defenses. I will never defend the idea that this was an engaging or highly interesting part of the story. But no story is written with all highs. If a story was all highs, then there would be no real highs. This is why we have the introduction, rising action, and climax. Because these components give a defined build up to the story and gives it meaning. Now the first problem with many of these missions is that they didn't actually build defenses. I won't pick on anyone in particular but one of the first protests made is how many other types of defenses are there other than walls? My response: are traps not defenses? Are towers not? Golems and other automatons? I do concede that it wasn't interesting; but the interesting aspect of the story is something that you ease into. The other issue raised was the quantity of missions required for each Expeditionary Mission/Operation.
To be honest, reading through your post and several others that have been made about this issue, it sounds incredibly interesting to me. But then, when it was actually put into play, it was not. First and foremost, the entire storyline was hidden too close to the chest. Being given an open world with the only storyline being "There are two factions" was too broad. When opening up a new explorable world, the overarching story needs to be stronger, to give a motto for the missions. If there had been a notice in the board claiming that "Tension is high and the Akatsuki movement is no longer hidden. The large criminal organization have been acting in the underground and have been responsible for many of the major events of death and destruction that have fell upon the world. The crack in reality has shifted the pillars of the world have expanded the natural barriers that we have come to know, and the world of the West is open for all. Akatsuki has been making movement in the west, and are atempting to take over the new land and all it's resources".

This, or hopefully a variation of this, would give the motto for everyone to follow. 1. New Land to expore. 2. New Resources to explore. 3 Stopping the Akatsuki's plan.

With that in line, the other problem that the first mission had was not just the fact that it was bound to be less exciting, in order to create peaks and valleys in the storyline, but it was also very unrealistic. "Build defenses" But against what? If I'm facing an army of shinobi, I'm doing a set of defenses, but if my enemies are other beings, then I'm building others. By making the mission a preemptive one, rather than a reactionary one, put the whole weight of the success of this new storyline onto the motivation of the players, rather than splitting it between those that are driving the story and those that are playing it. "Build a settlement to act as your base of exploration" would be a better mission to start us off, and if we are doing a city simulation, several special buildings could have been added as artifacts for people to build, such as a Marketplace, and World Back, a Kumi Farm, a Weapon Smith, etc, which could have given us bonus to the settlement. This could then be reused to revive the Village System.

Otherwise, it could still be "build defenses" but there needed to have been either an overarching motivation, such as "You're going to clash with Akatsuki, or the natives of the OL, or there is going to be an impending outbreak of something" for us to be excited about the second mission while suffering through the first one.

Or, to be honest, Outer Lands could have started out with a Bang. I know Isabella vs Nefarian was not the conclusion that the comunity wanted, and it all was a bit of a let down because of me. So the Outer Lands should have been a banger. Have an Active Outbreak of demons, monks, deities, etc. People get into the Outerlands and are right away assaulted by them. The story could be, as soon as the mists dissipated and the path to the West was open, a horde of "something" attacked the outermost west landmarks of the known world. While the valiant efforts of "npc group" managed to withstand the brunt of the attack and push them into the west, the "npc captain" is giving a call to action to all in order to build a fort in the new lands and explore the new world, while driving a wedge between the old world and the "something" that tries to attack them.

This was difficult to balance and I was very ready to adjust as required. I didn't want a single person grinding out the entire Operation alone, hence the first increase. But I also didn't want them to drag either, hence why I decreased it. But the overall requirement was never particularly high if there was engagement with it. If an Expeditionary Operation required 10 missions (this was roughly the average number between all expeditionary missions) and 5 Champions of Humanity were participating then that's only 2 per person. That's not particularly high and it spreads out the spoils evenly for people.

Now onto rewards. These I kept hidden. I keep rewards hidden for a good reason - I like surprises. When someone begins a Sage Mission or a Special Mission I don't tell them their exact reward. Sage Missions are somewhat transparent; people know that if they pass their likely to get a Sage Weapon. Special Missions have some ambiguous reward attached to them. Maybe a unique type of biography or ability combination. But it is never explicitly stated either and is usually driven by the story itself. Similar logic is applied to Expeditionary Operations - surprises are good, at least I think. It also keeps the immediate focus off the rewards. People are more likely to enjoy the journey rather than just rushing for the end goal. If there is overwhelming opinion that trends in the opposite direction I'll be more transparent with rewards.

However, I'll give a little bit of a taste of some of the rewards that would have come with the Expeditionary Missions:
  • In aggregate there was 150,000 Kumi to split amongst RPers between all the missions.
  • A permanent 25% Kumi and Ryo increase to missions completed in the Outer Lands.
  • A teleportation network setup throughout the Ninja World (connects to all marketplaces; added anyway with the end of EMs).
  • A set of unique Void Infused Artifacts that could tap into the Spacetime Network and give a bio Minato-esque abilities (limited FTG) in the Ninja World.
  • Utu/Suen (this one varied a little bit, wasn't a universal reward)
  • Atavistic Flame, master rank (connected to the Monks).
Of course this is also a great motivation, that it was also hidden too close to the chest. Not saying you had to show all, but some of it would have enticed us. Again, looking at your posts, I REALLY WANT TO EXPLORE THE OL, but that did not come to me before. Motivation was a all times low, and rather than shifting the requirements for the mission that, personally, felt out of place, you could have made a twist to the storyline to drive motivation up, like a mid-mission boss or outbreak to drive home the fact that there needed to be actual defenses in place.

Rifts

Since we're on the topic of rewards might as well segue into Rifts. So Rifts are a concept that I began working on very slowly after the Irkalla Raid. The first major piece of feedback I got was, 'We liked this, but make it for fewer people.' Okay, that can work. Being me and the particular asshole that I am I don't like just introducing them instantly. I plan ahead and had other things I wanted to work on, especially with Sage Missions ongoing parallel to the Underworld Raid and subsequent arcs. I also wanted more time to digest the Raid, see its pitfalls, see its successes, and go from there. And I like introducing things with story rather than just spontaneously. Sue me. So Rifts. What the **** are Rifts?

"Rifts will becoming to the NW in the future. These are planned to be 3 RPer activities similar to the raid we had but for fewer people. The term "rift" will make more sense in the future when it's released in the proper context."

A Rift is a higher difficulty activity designed around 1-3 roleplayers, though leaning toward the 2-3 part of the scale. I won't make many meant for a single RPer because the Dark Tower does exist for a reason. These are similar to the raid in that they are high difficulty enemies designed with particular loot pools. Some of this "loot" is unique to the "encounter" (i.e. a necklace that belongs to a witch). Others have more generic loot pools. Maybe you win a Tier 4 ability, like EIG and permission to put it on your biography. When I designed these I was less inclined to give away specific canon biographies. That hardly seemed organic and there are other complications with that as well. Though it isn't impossible either.

Rift Mechanics:

What is a Rift, then? A Rift will be a pocket in spacetime that an RPer can enter. Why there are spacetime pockets in certain landmarks will make sense in the future. I don't want to spoil that, though even just saying this will probably give some people who have been keen on following the story clues into what might be happening. These pockets will take someone either into the future, past, or something else entirely to face off against a single boss or a series of bosses (or other 'encounters,' like a puzzle). Rift will be a 1-3 person activity and leans toward 2-3. Succeeding will feature unique rewards while failure will be met with nothing.

Now these are logistically challenging. First off creating a unique boss isn't an easy undertaking in itself. When I make bosses for the Ninja World I try to take stock of what are particularly dominant fields right now. My boss can't be a pushover but also can't be unbeatable. Sometimes a boss's deficiency might be a story mechanic as well, i.e. the introduction of God-Slaying Tools. However, for Rifts these bosses will largely be unrelated to the overarching story. They might be tangentially related through smaller regional stories (see more on this below), however. But overall these bosses will be designed less with gimmicky mechanics (i.e. having a GST, though this might happen once or twice) and more with clearly defined weaknesses that a RPer can engage with on their biography. I also want to reward people for fulfilling certain roles in their endeavors. Hence the Tier 2 GST - clearly defined roles that give insane benefits to a particular "specialization." Healer, tank, DPS are the buzzwords that pop up here.

Now the term lockout pops up here as well. What is a "lockout?" This is a time period you have to wait before you can engage the Rift again. Now consider the Irkalla Raid, a 9 RPer activity (was flexible) that took about 6 months (9 if you consider storylines for some people). This was for four bosses. The raid took longer as well because it was a logistical hurdle for 9 people. Though I just want to be clear at no point did my own response pace slow down during it. There were periods where the raiders just couldn't get a move out, once again owing to their larger bloated size. I also have to consider my own, my mods, and my sensei's sanity. Burnout is a real thing. So I don't want people failing (or succeeding, these things will be repeatable) and just running up to them again a few days later. I need to make sure other people have a chance and I need to make sure I, and my surrogates, have a chance to recover a bit.

Remember this isn't a video game. Real humans are here maintaining things, however slow that might manifest (and rightfully frustratingly so). Sometimes it's a struggle especially when we have our own jobs, lives, and loved ones to tend to. Please be nice. We do try - I consider the NW to be my baby at times. I really do care and what you to have fun.

So yeah, that covers Rifts. I hope they'll be exciting.
I already spoke about this in Zatanna's thread. I'm up for it, I like this concept. I've enjoyed the Dark Tower, the only problem I had with it was Goetia's infrequent replies. The idea of expanding what to do in the NW with stuff that doesn't necessarily have an impact on the storyline, but are just mini-games within the world is amazing. Sometimes I don't really want to travel around and make missions, sometimes I just want to battle a boss and have some prizes. I did this with Panthalassa and now that my motivation was declining a bit, I considered doing it with Isabelle as well. Again, the only problem I saw with Dark Tower was the waiting time, but that can be mitigated by having Dark Tower and Rifts being handled by more people, like You, Goetia, Senseis and surrogate volunteers, like myself if you need the help.

All up for this.

Regional Storylines

So I experimented this a little while back with regional storylines. It didn't really generate much interest. This was an event that took place during Arc 21 when a rebellion took place in LoK's village, the Village Hidden in the Valley. Only two people participated in the sensei run missions in that region. Just two.

Yet a few weeks ago there was a sudden outburst of interest for these types of stories. Okay, fine. But I was puzzled by this. Why? Remember, these things do take some time and energy to create. One of the responses to this strange conundrum was that it was related to the 'main story.' Well, okay. But why is that an issue? Is this not an interconnected world? Didn't we move away from a Ninja World with separate storylines so we could integrate it into one "timeline."

This is one of the more open ended parts of this. I do want to capitalize on more areas of the Ninja World, especially on a regional level. But I also like having an interconnected story. So maybe a regional warlord in the Land of Fire rebelling against a capital might trigger a famine in the far west where grain is no longer flowing to because of the rebellion. Currently I'm in the planning stages for regional stories. Your feedback here matters.

Final Thoughts

I'm always open to hear feedback (hence this thread) or privately in DMs. I'll probably add more to this as time goes on. But I wanted to talk about these things since they're fairly recent events.
Well, I've spoken about this before, but I didn't feel like we were being paid enough atention when we were doing this regional storyline. I don't know if you expected more people to join in, but in a world where around 10 people were active, 2 people following a regional side-storyline seemed like a good ratio. I wanted to roleplay with McRazor and your storyline felt like a good motto for us, so we followed it. But nothing really happened.

We weren't expecting something to happen, because I honestly thought it was just fluff to add to the lore story and that you didn't intend for anyone to actually look for these characters and build rp storyline with them, just like Mara and her group didn't garner anyone's atention.

But if this was indeed intended as a regional storyline, then maybe it was handled poorly. back when I rejoined, I was told that there are secret details hidden in landmarks and the lore that when a rper finds them and acts on them, they will trigger some sort of quest line to follow. I didn't feel like this regional storyline did that, I felt like we were making things up as we went along, and then, after pestering you about it, you put a sensei to give a bit more fluff. At the end of it, literally he just died lol before we even had the chance to conclude his mission. And no reward was given to us for following the storyline.

So if you meant to give us a a regional storyline, it didn't go anywhere. If you meant to just give inspo for us to make our own stories, then it served its purpose greatly. You just need to decide which one was which, because, as a storyline motto, it was great and the world reacted well to it ( which was, we don't care about it, it was a cool read ; other than 1 or 2 people thinking it would be cool to act on it ). If it was a regional storyline, then it needed something more, more atention, more rewards, more presence in the lore/storyboard, have our names up on the boards.
 
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While I understand it can be exhausting running all the stories and micromanaging the little NPC's and events, I think having actual quest lines that are clearly displayed would be a big help. Players understanding and knowing what they are doing instead of giving a description of what is happening. Instead of saying "this area is over run with people, go investigate it" have actual quests that have a specific objective. Again, this allows people to have a goal in mind and then go about it how ever they want, and create NPCs
My suggestion would be to have a thread of the land that looks like this

Quest line:
(1) - Investigate the undead in X (D rank)
(2) - Explore the temple where the undead are coming from (C)
(3) - Kill the undead lich raising skeleton and find ties to the old man in town(B)
(4) - Interrogate the man in town for the source of the Lich powers (C)
(5) - Go find the lich's phylactery and destroy it (A)
(6) - Go back to town and find it under attack by skeletons and kill the man who has transformed into a skeletal overlord (S)

So you give them an actual quest line to follow but they can create the NPCs or stories they want, and there is a reward at the end, where players can submit all the completed missions for the quest line to get a unique reward to the story. That would be my suggestion.
I like this mission boards. and it can be tied to the regional storylines concept, where it's not the main story, but there are stuff to do, and, most importantly, react to when you want to rp in the NW.
 
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