Gaara vs Orochimaru

[Yashoda]

Get that crap outta here bro. Killing intent? This isn't Orochimaru bullying some prepubescent 12 year olds. This is the Kazekage lmfao.

Hahaha. It wasn't exactly supposed to be entirely serious, but there is some legitimacy to the case. These thought experiments/battles have always been founded on feats. So the question is; has Gaara displayed the ability to dispel any level of Genjutsu? It's a yes or no question. This question of course only applies to the first scenario. As far as I know, Gaara has not shown said ability. But this isn't about me and my rights and wrongs, it's about the objective truth.

 

[KCN]

Hahaha. It wasn't exactly supposed to be entirely serious, but there is some legitimacy to the case. These thought experiments/battles have always been founded on feats. So the question is; has Gaara displayed the ability to dispel any level of Genjutsu? It's a yes or no question. This question of course only applies to the first scenario. As far as I know, Gaara has not shown said ability. But this isn't about me and my rights and wrongs, it's about the objective truth.

It isn't a Genjutsu. It's fear induced off extreme killing intent. The fear makes one perceive it to be a genjutsu, but it isn't. Gaara is scared of nothing. Genjutsu is irrelevant, Orochimaru doesn't possess any.

 

[Yashoda]

It isn't a Genjutsu. It's fear induced off extreme killing intent. The fear makes one perceive it to be a genjutsu, but it isn't. Gaara is scared of nothing. Genjutsu is irrelevant, Orochimaru doesn't possess any.

True statement. Back to square one.

 

[Yashoda]

Sorry Orochimaru fans, I'm really trying to see if he can legit win this. If he gets close enough,

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is a possibility, but that's a big if with Gaara, considering he can fly.

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is another one but it's D-rank ninjutsu. I'm not saying Oro can't win, but I just can't seem to find a good path reasoning and possibilities to suggest a win for him. Not like anyone should care, but I tried.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It still unsuccessfully made it through Gaaras defense. Even if it could extend, it's not cleanly piercing right through the sand. Since it can only extend linearly, Gaara can simply move out of it's trajectory as it clashes with the sand, which would force Orochimaru to either change his attack to a slashing attempt or retry his entire approach all over again. At best, Oro only has a few seconds before Gaara catches his exposed body in a sand prison anyways.

Again I was addressing regular sand shield, that gaara normally uses. I was only clarifying what really happen to Kimmi's bones to a different defense. As you made it seemed the defense he use to block C1 is no different then the defense used against Kimmi. I rather focus to what was used against Deidara (thats based on your argument in aerial form). Not a super one-sided defense.

@Bold: .....

Spoiler

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Again "that" defense is obviously referring to the one used against Kimmi that you brought up. If your going use this sand move as a defense in your augment, you not only put Gaara's chakra next to none, but a platform for Orochimaru to get closer to Gaara.

Naruto who has gone V2, seen V2, and briefly fought against V2 Jins said that he thought Gaara has the best defense, even while discussing the 3rd Raikage [

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]. So you tell me.

Ill tell you. Naruto was mindless when he has gone V2, and has no idea of its feats to begin with. V2 jin battle was way after his statement of Gaara having the best defense. Even then, that statement is broad and Im sure it isn't meant to imply being the best defense literally. Otherwise I should implied that against being superior to Susanoo and other defenses. Im sure that statement was meant of its versatility. I rumble on, how his statement really means nothing and shouldn't be taken literally the best, especially right after that statement we witness it getting rekt by Mizukage. Lets drop the ABC logic here. Every attack with different priorities would react to Sand defense as we witness. Lets not use statements on why it wouldnt work.

And without an even slightly adequate defense, every clone meets the same fate... [

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]. Regardless of any sort of leverage or platform... Orochimaru can't contest with Gaara on this front. Gaara can effectively attack and defend simulataneously... Orochimaru can only uneffectively attack. He's losing every time here.

I disagree due to what Kusanagi is capable and power. Plus the fact that it will be difficult to catch with slower sand, as his only option to attack with, on your strategy. And some sand moves gets overpowered or out-speed by Manda.

And couldnt he make more Kusangi with shadow clones like all clones users are capable? So multiple telekinesis movement Kusanagi flying around?

Or #surfboard

You attempted to make the claim that it would be out of character for Gaara to go aerial and make it a long-distance fight while using examples from other battles that don't even compare to a proper 1v1 fight. So I explained to you why that wasn't the case. It makes zero sense for Gaara to fight a 1v1 battle on ground level, but I suppose that's all you have here for Orochimaru's sake. He lifted that sand from the ground to use in aerial combat against Deidara... not once did it come in contact with the village. My point was, he could never use such large AoE attacks in his battle against the Trollkage or Madara due to the fact it would hinder his allies.

Chill, this is what I said:

I dont think it matter's either fighting aerial or not. We seen countless of times (all Gaara's battles in aerial form), that Gaara levels himself to where his ground opponents can end up catching him.

I didn't say anything about Gaara "must fight on the ground because his opponent fights on the ground"

That's literally all Orochimaru can do here. Play chicken, hide, and prolong the fight to meet his inimitable fate. Him, any clones, and snake summons all get slaughtered with Gaaras sand pressure whenever they survice. Undetectable Mayfly accomplishes nothing here when sensory sand can be mixed in with the surface sand, so wherever Orochimaru survices, he'll be tracked.

I already address these are worst case scenarios (if he gets caught), as I already mention they can be outspeed since they're not his faster sand attacks.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Again I was addressing regular sand shield, that gaara normally uses. I was only clarifying what really happen to Kimmi's bones to a different defense. As you made it seemed the defense he use to block C1 is no different then the defense used against Kimmi. I rather focus to what was used against Deidara (thats based on your argument in aerial form). Not a super one-sided defense.



Again "that" defense is obviously referring to the one used against Kimmi that you brought up. If your going use this sand move as a defense in your augment, you not only put Gaara's chakra next to none, but a platform for Orochimaru to get closer to Gaara.

You must be under the impression that all of Gaaras "different" sand defenses are constant. It's durability all depends on the quantity of sand, quality of sand, and the amount of chakra Gaara decides to apply into it. You made the comment that is was impossible for Gaara to use this type of sand in the air, which is blatantly false. The purpose of the DB scan was to show you how effortless it is for Gaara to collect the best minerals for his sand - never did I say he would need to use that exact same jutsu on the same scale. He can literally apply the best minerals for the best quality of sand whenever... even for offensive purposes, which he does often.

Spoiler

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So whenever you'd like to stop pretending Gaara can't use his best quality of sand whenever he chooses... let me know.

Ill tell you. Naruto was mindless when he has gone V2, and has no idea of its feats to begin with. V2 jin battle was way after his statement of Gaara having the best defense. Even then, that statement is broad and Im sure it isn't meant to imply being the best defense literally. Otherwise I should implied that against being superior to Susanoo and other defenses. Im sure that statement was meant of its versatility. I rumble on, how his statement really means nothing and shouldn't be taken literally the best, especially right after that statement we witness it getting rekt by Mizukage. Lets drop the ABC logic here. Every attack with different priorities would react to Sand defense as we witness. Lets not use statements on why it wouldnt work.

And yet you have no basis to make the claim Kusanagi would pierce through Gaaras defenses. V2 mode has never recieved the defensive hype, nor the feats to even attempt at stating it's better then Gaaras defensive capabilties. Then you conveniently ignored the fact that the comment was made while discussing the 3rd Raikages defenses. You can rumble on, attempt at downplaying what the manga implies about Gaaras sand, misconstrue everything about Gaaras sand actually, and even continue to make baseless claims about Kusanagi... It's not helping your case. Feats don't support your assertion. It's a physical sword, which lacks any raiton chakra enhanced penetrative properties. It doesn't have the driving force of susano'o. And it's not the 2nd Mizukages oil. It has nothing to imply it'll make it through Gaaras sand defenses.

I disagree due to what Kusanagi is capable and power. Plus the fact that it will be difficult to catch with slower sand, as his only option to attack with, on your strategy. And some sand moves gets overpowered or out-speed by Manda.

And couldnt he make more Kusangi with shadow clones like all clones users are capable? So multiple telekinesis movement Kusanagi flying around?

Or #surfboard

What power? It's feats are lackluster in comparison to Gaaras sand. Slower sand? Never was it hinted or implied that collecting the best quality of sand makes it slow. Again, nothing is constant with Gaaras sand. He literally formed a sand wall instantly in tandem with Kamui and FTG. The speed of his sand is dependent on the amount of chakra he applies into it, and as usual, Kusanagi doesn't have the speed feats to suggest it'll outspeed Gaaras sand. Manda ultimately accomplishes nothing.. it'll eventually succomb to injury and poof or meet it's time limit.

Not getting past Suna Arare. Not getting past Gaaras sand defenses. Wasted effort.

Chill, this is what I said:



I didn't say anything about Gaara "must fight on the ground because his opponent fights on the ground"

Okay, so then toss the notion of Gaara "leveling himself with his opponent" right out the window.

I already address these are worst case scenarios (if he gets caught), as I already mention they can be outspeed since they're not his faster sand attacks.

"If he get's caught"... It's only a matter of time. Orochimaru has nothing on Gaara.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

So whenever you'd like to stop pretending Gaara can't use his best quality of sand whenever he chooses... let me know.

K

And yet you have no basis to make the claim Kusanagi would pierce through Gaaras defenses.

Basis:

1. Kusanagi is an ancient weapon that could equally clash against an adamantine weapon, that far surpasses anything Gaara's sand (plus collected minerals) can break/crush and defense density/prioritize can achieve.

2. Totsuka stated to be a variant of Kusanagi, which gives the weapon a meaning, considering how dangerous Totsuka is, especially its ethereal priority. And I'm sure you can argue that it can beat Gaara's defense.

V2 mode has never recieved the defensive hype, nor the feats to even attempt at stating it's better then Gaaras defensive capabilties.

I dont know what to say here... We have seen Susanoo attacks (Magatama and swords) being able to breach its defenses, which can't be done to V2 mode, yet you making such claim being superior by feats?

I might just get bored arguing against facts here.

Then you conveniently ignored the fact that the comment was made while discussing the 3rd Raikages defenses. You can rumble on, attempt at downplaying what the manga implies about Gaaras sand, misconstrue everything about Gaaras sand actually, and even continue to make baseless claims about Kusanagi... It's not helping your case. Feats don't support your assertion.

Ok, base on Naruto statement, somehow makes it manga implication that Gaara defense is the best? Gaara attack, which is base on density and pressure, can't hurt Raikage,

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. And does this somehow imply that Gaara defense can't be breach by FRS? Bringing up Naruto's statement isn't helping your case. And by feats its not superior to any defense compassion you mention, you stated Kusanagi couldn't breach.

So ABC logic isn't helping.

It's a physical sword, which lacks any raiton chakra enhanced penetrative properties. It doesn't have the driving force of susano'o. And it's not the 2nd Mizukages oil. It has nothing to imply it'll make it through Gaaras sand defenses.

Lack in raiton doesn't meaning it can carry as much penetrating power. The sword = to an adamantine weapon. Kakashi and Sasuke can use Raiton to bypass Gaara's defence, which can't be said to adamantine.

Both failed to breach V2, but raiton shown to beat Gaara's defense.

Driving force of susanoo is not relevant unless you think you can implied that Sasuke and Kakashi, and good raiton users, needs the same driving force of Susanoo in order to work.

What power? It's feats are lackluster in comparison to Gaaras sand. Slower sand? Never was it hinted or implied that collecting the best quality of sand makes it slow. Again, nothing is constant with Gaaras sand. He literally formed a sand wall instantly in tandem with Kamui and FTG. The speed of his sand is dependent on the amount of chakra he applies into it, and as usual, Kusanagi doesn't have the speed feats to suggest it'll outspeed Gaaras sand. Manda ultimately accomplishes nothing.. it'll eventually succomb to injury and poof or meet it's time limit.

Not getting past Suna Arare. Not getting past Gaaras sand defenses. Wasted effort.

Power to = adamantine.

@Bold, never made that claim. Your argument is base on staying in the air and fight. Bombard him with gourd-less sand, which manga outright stated to be slower. Show me that it can move faster then anything that Oro has dodged, until then my point stands.

@Underline, means nothing unless implying they share speed. To which, if you are, might end up stop arguing from here.

@Italic DB explains:

Although the sword left his hands, it is still under Oro's control. The legendary sword moves through the air in synchrony with the motion of Oro's fingers.

The Kusanagi is summoned within Oro's body. It is his unique jutsu that does as he wills.

It moves by Oro's perception, which can react to Gaara's sand. Plus had the feats to stop Orochimaru soul from getting rip off mid way by Hiruzen/RDS. The same speed RDS was used on Tobirama, Hashirama, and rip half of Kurama instantly.

Okay, so then toss the notion of Gaara "leveling himself with his opponent" right out the window.

Sure.

Same can be said the notion that "Gaara will be untouchable in the air".

 

[Izanamı.]

Gaara would win mid diff.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Basis:

1. Kusanagi is an ancient weapon that could equally clash against an adamantine weapon, that far surpasses anything Gaara's sand (plus collected minerals) can break/crush and defense density/prioritize can achieve.

2. Totsuka stated to be a variant of Kusanagi, which gives the weapon a meaning, considering how dangerous Totsuka is, especially its ethereal priority. And I'm sure you can argue that it can beat Gaara's defense.

Okay, it clashed against an adamantine pole on it's side. That doesn't really represent for it's piercing capabilities. Kusanagi is a katana, and it's expertise is in cutting/slashing rather then thrusting/stabbing. It's best feat in that regard would be piercing through Hiruzen and Tsunade... not impressive enough to suggest it'll pierce through Gaaras better defenses. Certainly not cleanly, anyways. And no it doesn't have a chance at slashing through Gaaras sand defenses when a minimal amount of sand was capable of defending against multiple susano'o swords; and Itachi's susano'o was capable of swiping cleanly through Kabuto's/Kimimaro's SM enhanced bones.

Alright... it's said to be a variant of Totsuka. Doesn't necessarily imply it's an equal.

I dont know what to say here... We have seen Susanoo attacks (Magatama and swords) being able to breach its defenses, which can't be done to V2 mode, yet you making such claim being superior by feats?

I might just get bored arguing against facts here.

Again, unlike V2, all of Gaaras defenses are not constant. Just because magatamas and susano'o swords breached through one defense, doesn't mean it'll breach through another with added dense sand and chakra. I highly highly doubt V2 is doing a better job at withstanding a C3 explosion then the sand defense Gaara used. And I highly highly doubt magatamas and susano'o swords are breaching that as well. But you're correct in pointing out that the ABC logic is flawed here, because V2 and Gaaras sand don't defend against everything the same.

Ok, base on Naruto statement, somehow makes it manga implication that Gaara defense is the best? Gaara attack, which is base on density and pressure, can't hurt Raikage,

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. And does this somehow imply that Gaara defense can't be breach by FRS? Bringing up Naruto's statement isn't helping your case. And by feats its not superior to any defense compassion you mention, you stated Kusanagi couldn't breach.

So ABC logic isn't helping.

I don't know what you're arguing against here. Naruto believes that Gaara has better defensive capabilities then everything he has fought against up to that point in time... which directly includes the 3rd Raikage. You're doing it again. You have it set on your mind that everything in Gaara's arsenal is a constant attack/defense. You seriously think that a 5 finger Nukite is busting through a Sand Pyramid? You seriously think that FRS is breaching the same level of defense (or similar) to the one that completely tanked a C3 explosion?

It's like we're discussing apples and oranges here. While stating that Kusanagi can't breach Gaaras defenses, I was referring to his best defensive capabilties. Not some measily sand shield.

Lack in raiton doesn't meaning it can carry as much penetrating power. The sword = to an adamantine weapon. Kakashi and Sasuke can use Raiton to bypass Gaara's defence, which can't be said to adamantine.

Both failed to breach V2, but raiton shown to beat Gaara's defense.

Driving force of susanoo is not relevant unless you think you can implied that Sasuke and Kakashi, and good raiton users, needs the same driving force of Susanoo in order to work.

Earth is naturally weak to Raiton, which I would think somewhat correlates to Gaaras sand. That's what I meant. Kusanagi doesn't have that elemental advantage over Gaaras sand.

Kakashi's raiton was capable of slicing through V2 chakra arms.

....What Kakashi and Sasuke succeeded against is not even comparable to what Madara's susano'o busted through. The driving force of a weapon is very relevant in terms of getting passed tough defenses; especially while discussing a weapon that is primarily made for cutting/slashing being used as means for stabbing through Gaaras defenses.

Power to = adamantine.

@Bold, never made that claim. Your argument is base on staying in the air and fight. Bombard him with gourd-less sand, which manga outright stated to be slower. Show me that it can move faster then anything that Oro has dodged, until then my point stands.

@Underline, means nothing unless implying they share speed. To which, if you are, might end up stop arguing from here.

@Italic DB explains:



It moves by Oro's perception, which can react to Gaara's sand. Plus had the feats to stop Orochimaru soul from getting rip off mid way by Hiruzen/RDS. The same speed RDS was used on Tobirama, Hashirama, and rip half of Kurama instantly.

So... Hidan's scythe = in power to a Kunai, which is = power to a single senbon? Does that logic work too or? Because they clashed together.

Orochimaru isn't avoiding any AoE attacks. What is he ever dodging when the ground he is moving on can be used as means of attack by his opponent. If he wants to go retreat underground then fine, but in order to ever touch Gaara, he'd need to surface. This dude Gaara can literally suspend sand high into the sky from half a village distance away in one panel... Is Orochimaru all of the sudden some top tier speedste...? Like, what are we even discussing here. That's totally fine. No need to continue discussing anything with someone who wants to blatantly deny what the manga shows us [

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]. Your reply to the matter is laughable and desperate. It means nothing unless I'm implying they all share speed? Ridiculous. So the fact that both Kamui, FTG, and Gaaras sand manipulation (which the DB literally said was instant, while creating this wall) shared pretty much the same amount of panel time in this single page means nothing? Doesn't need to directly imply that it's equivalent in speed to both these attacks, and neither was it what I was implying. The point and fact was, that Gaaras sand manipulation here was fast af to be successfully used next to Kamui and FTG.

Orochimaru himself questioned why an exhausted 70 year old didn't simply just avoid the sword [

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]. That's really all that needs to be said.

Sure.

Same can be said the notion that "Gaara will be untouchable in the air".

By Orochimaru? Nah. He has nothing on Gaara but prolonging the fight. The sword extension restricts Orochimaru's movements and requires at least a good couple of seconds before reaching Gaara, where he simply counter attack and defend simultaneously much faster. And the sword moving through the air is just laughable if Orochimaru thinks an old Hiruzen is capable of simply avoiding it. Got anything else?

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Okay, it clashed against an adamantine pole on it's side. That doesn't really represent for it's piercing capabilities.

Not relevant if it doesn't, since it would do the same amount of damage if he did. If it was any weaker it would of been damage, snapped, etc.

Kusanagi is a katana, and it's expertise is in cutting/slashing rather then thrusting/stabbing.

Did you do your homework before you made that statement? Lets say we both dont even do research and looks strictly to what the manga has shown.

1. If that was true then the shape of the top of the sword shouldnt be built upon the fact, useful for thrusting motion.

2. If that was true then Orochimaru wouldn't make a relevant statement, that piercing V2 wouldn't work for such a blade he has in his possession.

3. Sasuke's, similar blade wouldn't be used so much in the same piercing notion, Against Yamato's team, Orochimaru, and Kabuto (which Kabuto himself also used it in the same piercing fashion). Plus Madara's scenario.

This claim you made is baseless and unsupported.

It's best feat in that regard would be piercing through Hiruzen and Tsunade... not impressive enough to suggest it'll pierce through Gaaras better defenses. Certainly not cleanly, anyways. And no it doesn't have a chance at slashing through Gaaras sand defenses when a minimal amount of sand was capable of defending against multiple susano'o swords; and Itachi's susano'o was capable of swiping cleanly through Kabuto's/Kimimaro's SM enhanced bones.

No its best feat is it can rival adamantine without breaking. In fact can have an adamantine user complain. @Bold Dont bother mentioning things I havent even began to defend.

Alright... it's said to be a variant of Totsuka. Doesn't necessarily imply it's an equal.

a form or version of something that differs in some respect from other forms of the same thing or from a standard. Some how doesn't imply equal? Ok.

Only reason Tosuka is superior weapon is base on its ethereal priorities, as I already mentioned, and sealing.

Again, unlike V2, all of Gaaras defenses are not constant. Just because magatamas and susano'o swords breached through one defense, doesn't mean it'll breach through another with added dense sand and chakra. I highly highly doubt V2 is doing a better job at withstanding a C3 explosion then the sand defense Gaara used. And I highly highly doubt magatamas and susano'o swords are breaching that as well. But you're correct in pointing out that the ABC logic is flawed here, because V2 and Gaaras sand don't defend against everything the same.

Mostly agree.

I don't know what you're arguing against here. Naruto believes that Gaara has better defensive capabilities then everything he has fought against up to that point in time... which directly includes the 3rd Raikage. You're doing it again.

And Sasuke believes something different. So who's more right? I base my point in Naruto's statement that Gaara's defense is most versatile not the strongest ever in manga as your implying.

You have it set on your mind that everything in Gaara's arsenal is a constant attack/defense.

I do, as I do with Orochimaru. I still think its flaw (which I am mentioning now) that you think his attack and defense will equally be top notched focused. Never ever in the manga has this been shown from gaara. He either has top notch defense, sacrificing some attack power, and vise versa.

You seriously think that a 5 finger Nukite is busting through a Sand Pyramid?

Busting it open? No. Successfully seeping his hand through? Ya.

You seriously think that FRS is breaching the same level of defense (or similar) to the one that completely tanked a C3 explosion?

No. But I'm sure it would do much damage to the spots it can breach.

It's like we're discussing apples and oranges here. While stating that Kusanagi can't breach Gaaras defenses, I was referring to his best defensive capabilties. Not some measily sand shield.

But I address you argument regarding that. If your strategy is to win with quantity defense, then that helps Orochimaru for leverage and the cost of major chakra for Gaara.

You can't really pick and choose both attack and defense is top notch.

Earth is naturally weak to Raiton, which I would think somewhat correlates to Gaaras sand. That's what I meant. Kusanagi doesn't have that elemental advantage over Gaaras sand.

Kakashi's raiton was capable of slicing through V2 chakra arms.

....What Kakashi and Sasuke succeeded against is not even comparable to what Madara's susano'o busted through. The driving force of a weapon is very relevant in terms of getting passed tough defenses; especially while discussing a weapon that is primarily made for cutting/slashing being used as means for stabbing through Gaaras defenses.

I dont think sand implies. Sand is more of a "KKG" status then basic element chart. So Raiton isn't an element advantage.

Not sure how slicing chakra arms is relevant point.

Your claim of Katana's primary attack power is weaker in thrust was baseless to begin with. Plus this is still towards the ABC logic. Susanoo can bust Sand Pyramid, yes, I dont think good Raiton users can (most likley's higher level Nukite). What I do think is that can be penetrate inside the defense, to how much their hands can reach inside. Busting=/= Breaching in my premise.

So... Hidan's scythe = in power to a Kunai, which is = power to a single senbon? Does that logic work too or? Because they clashed together.

Sure it could work. But major misconception in your argument. Hidan's scythe was parried from the handle that carries the blade, not the blade itself being countered. Parrying ones attack is different then a full force attack withstanding something inferior. Otherwise Mokuton shouldnt need to parry Susanoo attacks.

Here's how you properly look at my logic[

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] Bee's weapon would not withstand the power of Execution blade. Its more durable, heaver, more mass, basically overall stronger blade, which is why it snapped when not being powered by Raiton.

Hiruzen last attack used full force that didn't do anything to Kusangi, but only knocked it out of Oro's hand, at least.

Orochimaru isn't avoiding any AoE attacks. What is he ever dodging when the ground he is moving on can be used as means of attack by his opponent. If he wants to go retreat underground then fine, but in order to ever touch Gaara, he'd need to surface. This dude Gaara can literally suspend sand high into the sky from half a village distance away in one panel... Is Orochimaru all of the sudden some top tier speedste...? Like, what are we even discussing here. That's totally fine. No need to continue discussing anything with someone who wants to blatantly deny what the manga shows us [

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]. Your reply to the matter is laughable and desperate. It means nothing unless I'm implying they all share speed? Ridiculous. So the fact that both Kamui, FTG, and Gaaras sand manipulation (which the DB literally said was instant, while creating this wall) shared pretty much the same amount of panel time in this single page means nothing? Doesn't need to directly imply that it's equivalent in speed to both these attacks, and neither was it what I was implying. The point and fact was, that Gaaras sand manipulation here was fast af to be successfully used next to Kamui and FTG.

Manda 1 says hi, when it comes to AoE. And your whole premise just outright shows giving Orochimaru leverage. IF he wants to retreat underground, he will never be detected so surfacing back, like I said worst case scenario, isnt an issue. Oro doesn't have to be top tier speedste for his attacks to reach Gaara. Not that Oro isn't even lacking in speed to begin with.

@Bold, what I dont want to discuss is how to read manga. I dont want to break down how Minato's throwing a Kunai beats Sand wall, yet someone means = to FTG. I dont want to argue that sand speed = teleportation. I dont want to argue of the fact, Kakashi was preparing Kamui to be used (Which next chapter broke down). Not actually used in the same speed the sand wall was created.

Orochimaru himself questioned why an exhausted 70 year old didn't simply just avoid the sword [

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]. That's really all that needs to be said.

Thats just impressive feat for Hiruzen. Not surprising since Hiruzen almost was capable of dodging Juuibto's attack, which is better then not being able to dodge it at all. That doesn't lower the swords feats to that of sand's attack speed. Escailly when I just mention an ability that can pull souls instantly.

By Orochimaru? Nah. He has nothing on Gaara but prolonging the fight. The sword extension restricts Orochimaru's movements and requires at least a good couple of seconds before reaching Gaara, where he simply counter attack and defend simultaneously much faster. And the sword moving through the air is just laughable if Orochimaru thinks an old Hiruzen is capable of simply avoiding it. Got anything else?

Last time I check Oro can move around with his stretchy neck (And even present it against Spiral Zetsu). Last time I check my premise is using multiple clones for multitasking. Last time I check my premise is base around getting spores around Gaara's defense. Still haven't showed of Gaara's attack speed being of that, that Orochimaru can't handle. Its laughable to think old Hiruzen capable of avoiding somehow means something. Like Gaara's sand is anything superior to that of Hiruzen reflex and speed. In coming, another discussion.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Not relevant if it doesn't, since it would do the same amount of damage if he did. If it was any weaker it would of been damage, snapped, etc.

Sure it could work. But major misconception in your argument. Hidan's scythe was parried from the handle that carries the blade, not the blade itself being countered. Parrying ones attack is different then a full force attack withstanding something inferior. Otherwise Mokuton shouldnt need to parry Susanoo attacks.

Here's how you properly look at my logic[

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] Bee's weapon would not withstand the power of Execution blade. Its more durable, heaver, more mass, basically overall stronger blade, which is why it snapped when not being powered by Raiton.

Hiruzen last attack used full force that didn't do anything to Kusangi, but only knocked it out of Oro's hand, at least.

It's very relevant, unless you're suggesting to me that slashing = thrusting, and both (very different style of attacks) put the same amount of pressure and stress on the sword while clashing with another object. Which is flagrantly wrong.

The kunai still withstood the blunt force of Hidans scythe handle clashing against it, just as Kusanagi withstood the blunt force of the admantine pole. Not to mention, it wasn't just once, they did actually clash

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. So Hidans sythe=kunai=senbons. Sweet. Then in exhibit B, the Execution blade clashed with Tobi's arm [

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]... So now I suppose the Execution blade and Tobi's arm now equivalent in substance and power, according to your logic.

Did you do your homework before you made that statement? Lets say we both dont even do research and looks strictly to what the manga has shown.

1. If that was true then the shape of the top of the sword shouldnt be built upon the fact, useful for thrusting motion.

2. If that was true then Orochimaru wouldn't make a relevant statement, that piercing V2 wouldn't work for such a blade he has in his possession.

3. Sasuke's, similar blade wouldn't be used so much in the same piercing notion, Against Yamato's team, Orochimaru, and Kabuto (which Kabuto himself also used it in the same piercing fashion). Plus Madara's scenario.

This claim you made is baseless and unsupported.

Yes, I did actually. And you misunderstood me. I never said it was incapable of thrusting/stabbing, I said it's expertise is in slashing/cutting. Go do your research. A katanas curved sharp blade work bests in a slashing motion, while a long sword (for example) works best in lunging/stabbing motion. It's a fact, look it up.

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a form or version of something that differs in some respect from other forms of the same thing or from a standard. Some how doesn't imply equal? Ok.

Only reason Tosuka is superior weapon is base on its ethereal priorities, as I already mentioned, and sealing.

Thank you, you said it yourself. Variant doesn't directly imply they're equal. So happy you agree. Thanks again.

And Sasuke believes something different. So who's more right? I base my point in Naruto's statement that Gaara's defense is most versatile not the strongest ever in manga as your implying.

Here we go again, that is what I implied?
It doesn't matter what Sasuke believes or thinks. The fact is, Naruto at that point and time, believes Gaara has the best shield. That doesn't come close to implying that Gaara has the best defense in the manga, that's just you making a weak attempt at purposely miscontrueing what is being said by the manga and what I'm actually implying. Naruto has never faught against Susano'o or seen it's defensive capabilities at that point, so that doesn't even apply. But he did make that statement directly after defeating the 3rd Raikage.

I do, as I do with Orochimaru. I still think its flaw (which I am mentioning now) that you think his attack and defense will equally be top notched focused. Never ever in the manga has this been shown from gaara. He either has top notch defense, sacrificing some attack power, and vise versa.

Question, what does Gaara use to attack with? His sand right? So then what does he use to defend with? His sand again... right? His attack can become his defense, as quickly as his defense can become his attack. If you mean it can't happen simultaneously, then maybe you have a point. But he can transition between his attack and defense instantly.

Busting it open? No. Successfully seeping his hand through? Ya.



No. But I'm sure it would do much damage to the spots it can breach.

Accomplishes nothing. If the aim is to hit Gaara, both are failing miserably.

But I address you argument regarding that. If your strategy is to win with quantity defense, then that helps Orochimaru for leverage and the cost of major chakra for Gaara.

You can't really pick and choose both attack and defense is top notch.

Pretty much can when both are used from the same sand. And no, this would be a worst case scenario where Gaara would need to defend against Kusanagi blade, and was only brought up in response to you saying Kusanagi would breach all of Gaaras defenses. Orochimaru get's hard countered before this would happen.

I dont think sand implies. Sand is more of a "KKG" status then basic element chart. So Raiton isn't an element advantage.

Not sure how slicing chakra arms is relevant point.

Your claim of Katana's primary attack power is weaker in thrust was baseless to begin with. Plus this is still towards the ABC logic. Susanoo can bust Sand Pyramid, yes, I dont think good Raiton users can (most likley's higher level Nukite). What I do think is that can be penetrate inside the defense, to how much their hands can reach inside. Busting=/= Breaching in my premise.

I don't see how it's a KKG. Neither do I recall the manga or DB confirming Gaara being a KKG user.

It successfully cut through V2 chakra arms, but unsuccessfully cut through a V2 body. Point was, just because something could breach one of Gaaras sand defenses, doesn't mean it'll breach a stronger one.

It's really not though, lmao. Penetrating a sand pyramid from the outside isn't an impressive feat considering it's an attack that works by binding and crushing what's inside of it. Place Kakashi/Sasuke inside of it, and they aren't coming close to replicating what susano'o did, much less moving a muscle.

Manda 1 says hi, when it comes to AoE. And your whole premise just outright shows giving Orochimaru leverage. IF he wants to retreat underground, he will never be detected so surfacing back, like I said worst case scenario, isnt an issue. Oro doesn't have to be top tier speedste for his attacks to reach Gaara. Not that Oro isn't even lacking in speed to begin with.

@Bold, what I dont want to discuss is how to read manga. I dont want to break down how Minato's throwing a Kunai beats Sand wall, yet someone means = to FTG. I dont want to argue that sand speed = teleportation. I dont want to argue of the fact, Kakashi was preparing Kamui to be used (Which next chapter broke down). Not actually used in the same speed the sand wall was created.

And then Gaara waves bye [

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]. Leverage that instantly swallows him up into a sand prison? Nice.

Lmao, you have got to be kidding me. Even though I blatantly and specifically said that I wasn't implying that Sand wall = FTG and Kamui in speed, you proceed to make it seem as such for whatever reason. Either you're doing this shit on purpose or your reading comprehension is really dirt poor. You don't know when Minato tossed the kunai, so toss that one out before it starts. The fact that the sand wall appeared between the time the kunai landed and Minato using FTG say's it all. One last time here, because this debate got boring two posts ago, the fact that his sand manipulation was successfully used to form a structure right next to FTG and Kamui is a massive speed feat on it's own. If you're incapable of comprehending that, then read the databook entry, which reinforces the speed feat.

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Again, that's not me impying that it is equal to Kamui and FTG... just in case you missed that part for the 3rd time.

Thats just impressive feat for Hiruzen. Not surprising since Hiruzen almost was capable of dodging Juuibto's attack, which is better then not being able to dodge it at all. That doesn't lower the swords feats to that of sand's attack speed. Escailly when I just mention an ability that can pull souls instantly.

Last time I check Oro can move around with his stretchy neck (And even present it against Spiral Zetsu). Last time I check my premise is using multiple clones for multitasking. Last time I check my premise is base around getting spores around Gaara's defense. Still haven't showed of Gaara's attack speed being of that, that Orochimaru can't handle. Its laughable to think old Hiruzen capable of avoiding somehow means something. Like Gaara's sand is anything superior to that of Hiruzen reflex and speed. In coming, another discussion.

Yes, from a guy that maxes out with a 3 in speed according to the DB. Then the added fact that he was exhausted, and still could of reacted to and completely avoid the sword. Laughable. When Gaaras sand can successfully be used next to Kamui and FTG, keep up with Madara in CQC [

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], and can be raised miles into the sky and travel at least a half village distance nigh instantly [

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]. I'm not even going to entertain the notion of a swords speed, that an exhausted 70 year old could avoid at close range, being faster then Gaaras sand.

Stretching his neck doesn't stop Gaara from pasting his entire body. Gaara can use clones too, for multitasking. Thought we tossed the spores out the window, when you mistakenly thought Gaara would hover around ground level the whole fight based on other incomparable scenarios. I'm bored of this discussion man.

 

[DrProof]

Gaara rapes. Hard.

 

[Nattana]

Gaara rapes. Hard.

I need you to tell me where to get the pills you were on when you wrote this post.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

snip

Bruh, about a week ago? Interest died awhile ago.