Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
Kisame, medium difficulty.
[VS] Kisame vs. War Arc Gaara
- Thread starter makosheva7
- Start date
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
Gaara takes this with mid-high difficulty.
He can easily create
Waterdome is a problem because Kisame is faster in it while the sand will no doubt be slower but a sand tsunami can engulf the dome polluting it and making it hard for Kisame to do much. Eventually Gaara's sand boxes Kisame in and finishes him off.
He can easily create
You must be registered for see links
to crush Kisame which require no handseals unlike Kisame's suiton. Kisame's suiton can't breach Gaara's sand and can be blocked by a
You must be registered for see links
or at the very least slowed down. Gaara can fly on top of his sand cloud which is faster than Onoki's flight speed so he easily dodges Kisame's attacks. Waterdome is a problem because Kisame is faster in it while the sand will no doubt be slower but a sand tsunami can engulf the dome polluting it and making it hard for Kisame to do much. Eventually Gaara's sand boxes Kisame in and finishes him off.
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
Close ranged sand attacks can be countered by Daikbaksui Shōha, which only takes one one-handed seal, and the water dome will envelop Kisame's surroundings very quickly. Kisame can also go beneath ground level via Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage and use Suiton: Baksuishōha (which also only takes on seal and spits out a tremendous amount of water within seconds) underground to inhibit Gaara's ability to break down earthly minerals into sand, or at the very least make the sand much slower and weaker.
Can I see scans regarding your claim about Gaara's Sabaku Fūyu speed?
If Gaara's sand envelops Kisame's water dome,
You must be registered for see links
. Also, Daikōdan's size was shown to be roughly equal to Daytime Tiger, so Gaara's going to need a lot of sand to block it.
Last edited:
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
Scan for bold? That is probably an attack that goes forward from Kisame's mouth so if Kisame's body gets trapped in sand, he's screwed. Well how can Kisame prevent Gaara from grinding sand when he's done so
You must be registered for see links
with the ground? Sand will logically be slower in water but I don't know about weaker as it was able to
You must be registered for see links
. Madara with Hashirama's cells has superhuman strength much like Kisame and 3rd Raikage who couldn't break out of a
You must be registered for see links
. Gaara's sand non gourd sand which is
You must be registered for see links
sand
You must be registered for see links
in less panel time than Onoki (
You must be registered for see links
)(
You must be registered for see links
). It was Gaara's sand cloud that was used to transport the Gokage to the Juubi battlefield, not Onoki's flight. Gaara's sand is fast enough to keep up with Madara and block his attacks (
You must be registered for see links
).That's great as it allows Gaara to finish Kisame off as he escapes the waterdome. Like I said, Gaara's sand could trap Kisame before he uses Daikodan if the distance is small or if the distance is large enough for Daikodan to get prepped, Gaara can erect a
You must be registered for see links
or simply evade it via flight.
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
You must be registered for see links
. Sand won't be as effective underwater, and his sand attacks aren't automatic, so I don't see why Kisame wouldn't be able to react to them before he gets totally covered in sand. I said that Kisame can inhibit this ability, or at the very least make the sand weaker, not completely prevent Gaara from making sand. The bolded: In that very same scan, Mei said that the lightning mixed with her water dragon dulled Madara's movements and numbed his body, making it harder for the latter to escape the sand. Sandaime's killing intent wasn't maxed out during that time and still retained part of his personality. Otherwise both he and Gengetsu (via hydrification) would have escaped Gaara's sand, like they did later on [
You must be registered for see links
]. Hmm...
You must be registered for see links
, and the former was evading all of Shukaku Jin Gaara's attacks until he the latter countered by increasing the scale of his attacks.
You must be registered for see links
, so having Onoki ride on it was more collectively chakra conserving than having him fly on his own. Furthermore, the two were keeping up with each other here [
You must be registered for see links
]. Daikoudan's prep time can be adjusted as hinted in this scan [
You must be registered for see links
]. I'll change my stance from medium difficulty to high difficulty, but I still think Kisame wins, unless you convince me otherwise.
Last edited:
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
Well if Kisame doesn't fuse with samehada, he won't be able to immediately react to those sand arms but I guess he can't use sand arms if there is water underneath Kisame. Kisame can't stop Gaara from creating sand and the sand will be slower if it travels inside water because of increase in fluid resistance. In part one, it took less than one chapter for Gaara to use sand tsunami. In part two, Gaara won't take over a minute in order to convert the entire ground to sand. Sure Kisame will have water on top of this sand but then Gaara can lift all that sand and throw it at Kisame.
Well I guess in a watery environment, sand walls from the ground and sand arms from the ground are useless as the water is pretty deep so I'll stop arguing this point.
This was EP2 Gaara, we're talking about War Arc Gaara. Another feat from Gaara's sand is that he
You must be registered for see links
his sand cloud to Madara's location
You must be registered for see links
alongside 8th gate Gai . Sure Gai wasn't traveling anywhere close to full speed but matching even a small fraction of 8th gate Gai's speed is quite a feat.
You must be registered for see links
before Mu barely started prepping his jinton and Mu was very close to Onoki so Gaara basically covered the distance between himself and Mu before Mu could prep jinton. Now take into account that Onoki decided to use jinton to counter Mu's jinton instead of intercepting Mu which would take a lot less chakra. Based on this, we can conclude Gaara's sand is faster than Onoki's flight speed. So a Zetsu clone failing miserably and barely clapping his hands before getting blitzed is proof that its prep time can be adjusted? Anyway Gaara's sand drizzle coming from the skies covers great AoE and is harmful to Kisame. It could also be used to distract him allowing a sand tsunami to catch him off guard. Kisame's regeneration won't be useful if he gets crushed into oblivion and even sand drizzle can do permanent damage because Kisame won't be absorbing chakra from long range through samehada.
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
Remember that Ōnoki couldn't fly properly and was falling because his chronic back pain aggravated during that moment. I don't think it's completely accurate to say that Gaara covered the distance between him and Mū, because Mū more or less stayed at the same spot where he went visible, while Gaara covered the distance between himself and a falling Ōnoki.
Very well, I'll agree to Gaara's sand speed being faster than Ōnoki's flight speed, but is it really fair to say that the speed with which Gaara manipulates his sand is the same as the speed with which Gaara travels on his sand? It seems to me that we'll need to see each other racing from point A to point B to make a better conclusion. Furthermore, there's the scan I showed of them keeping up with each other while they were both flying. Neither of them really had a reason to slow down due to the presence of the edo kages on the other battlefields. If Gaara's sand suspension flight was the fastest way to get there, then I'm sure Ōnoki would have opted to ride his sand instead of flying on his own. KCM Naruto's managed to evade v2 Ay, was dancing around v1 Sandaime, and blitzed Kisame in what was seemingly a flash at full speed [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
], point being that his footspeed should be greater than or equal to Ōnoki/Gaara's flight speed, so only he would have a reason to slow down to talk the kage duo beside him.Zetsu getting blitzed isn't really part of my point. He obviously had intel on Kisame's abilities due to both of them participating in an infiltration mission that involved him taking Kisame's place mid battle, while Kisame forcefully occulted himself inside the Samehada. Him clapping his hands together and managing to say "Suiton: Daikōdan" before getting blitzed by two extremely fast opponents at short range means that GSB's prep time isn't just limited to what we saw from Guy vs. Kisame.
In addition, many shinobi have shown that he/she can execute techniques faster than the normal speed with which he/she uses the attack if the situation calls for it. For instance, we saw that GSB and Daytime Tiger roughly have the same prep time. Guy was able to fire it off much quicker than he did in that fight vs. Juubi Jin Madara [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. Jinton's usual prep time takes a couple of seconds, but Mū managed to counter Ōnoki's jinton with the same attack despite the fact that the latter had already been prepping the attack [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
], meaning that jinton can be fired off quicker than it usually can. In lieu of Kisame-Zetsu's attempt to fire GSB off, I don't see why this principle can't be applied to said technique.Inside the water dome, it's a forgone conclusion that Kisame will merge with the Samehada. The scenario you layed out here won't catch Kisamehada off, since he'll sense Gaara's sand tsunami coming in conjuction with Gaara's sand drizzle. Also, both attacks won't be as effective as they usually are underwater, so Gaara will need much more sand than usual to overwhelm and crush Kisame. The sand will also be slower, giving Kisame time to prep counter attacks and possible feints involving mizu bunshins and sharks, both summoned and created from water.
Last edited:
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
You don't get the point, Onoki not being able to properly fly doesn't change the fact Gaara's shown he can nigh instantly travel a good distance and if he didn't have to save Onoki, he could have easily travelled to Mu way before Mu got his jinton off. Onoki has shown no such speed where he can stop Mu from preparing jinton via flight speed.
I do agree that Gaara's travelling speed should be inferior to the speed at which Gaara attacks his opponents with sand but that just goes to show how fast his sand attacks are. Much faster in both travelling speed and execution in comparison to Kisame's jutsus. Also Onoki and Gaara travelling at the same speed doesn't make them equal to each other in speed unless all three were going full speed. We've seen slower characters travel just as fast as faster characters even in a state of emergency.
Okay it doesn't change the fact that Gaara's sand execution is nigh instant as it doesn't require the creation of sand as long as sand is already present or he's using his gourd sand. It also doesn't require hand seals. Unlike Kisame's suiton, Gaara's sand can curve around his opponents and box them in. He has a more versatile offence and defence game going on and can
You must be registered for see links
. Not to mention he is a more intelligent shinobi. Don't see why I should give Kisame Gai's feats when Gai's Hirudora's speed and power depends on his striking speed whereas GSB is a ninjutsu which for the most part are fixed when it comes to execution. It was Kisame who started to attack Gai and Gai was the one playing defensive and wanted Kisame alive to gather intel or else I'm pretty sure he could've blitzed Kisame or used Hirudora before Kisame could finish GSB. I mean if
You must be registered for see links
, pretty sure 7G Gai does much worse to Kisame. GSB's prep being a bit faster than what was shown in canon doesn't begin to compare with Gaara's attacks speed feats barring sand tsunami which is admittedly slow but covers a lot greater area than GSB, thus much harder to avoid/defend against. A large amount of sand can be
You must be registered for see links
above the water dome and then sandwich Kisame who'll be at the centre of the waterdome. Kisame will get crushed and won't be able to maintain water dome anymore which just allows the sand to crush Kisame even more, killing him. I say Gaara high difficulty because without a desert, it will take a while for Gaara to grind up enough sand and quite a bit of chakra as well. I do believe he can fend of Kisame for long enough especially since his gourd sand's quantity is pretty large now (
You must be registered for see links
).
Last edited:
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
Wouldn't engaging Mū directly and disrupting jinton have made more sense for Gaara to do, then? Yeah, Mū would have dodged and gone after Ōnoki, but the speed of Gaara's sand attacks would have stopped him from doing so.
Ok, but Gaara's attacks won't be as fast, nor as strong as usual submerged underwater. Kisame also has good execution speed, has the benefit of having a chakra sensor in the Samehada, and all of his attacks should logically be faster underwater, so the gap between them in these categories isn't as wide enough to be a factor in a 1v1 between them.
There aren't enough feats to solidly come to the conclusion that Gaara's flight speed is faster than Ōnoki's. And the thing is, we should assume that they were going at full speed,since Gaara left a bunch of infantry soldiers alone to face a kage level opponent. Obviously they'd want to rush to the scene and see what's going on.
.
That's fine and all, but it's likely that Kisame will be utilizing the water dome for this battle, and I've kept saying that Gaara's sand won't be as effective as it usually is underwater. Gaara's gourd sand is fast, but not particularly large in quantity compared to the amount he'll need to defeat Kisame. Sand won't be present given the location, and the Samehada can sense and alert Kisame to the minerals being broken down underneath them. Kisame's a pretty intelligent strategist considering the observations he made during his fight with Bee, so lets not underrate him.
Not saying you should give Kisame Guy's feats, just saying that GSB can be fired off much faster than what was shown and used Mū and Guy, both shinobi around Kisame's level barring Shimon, as comparisons as well as the Zetsu-Kisame scan. Jutsus can be executed much faster than normal with experience and skill, since Kakashi and Sasuke later on could use Raikiri/Chidori w/o hand seals, and Mei can use water dragons without having to form the 43 seals normally necessary. There's also the Mū example, in which he fired off jinton faster than Ōnoki. Already covered the bolded.
It's not like the water dome is stationary though. Kisame can
You must be registered for see links
, so he can escape being sandwiched. Gaara won't be able to create such a great amount of sand instantly. Kisamehada can sense him breaking down the sand underneath the ground, and react accordingly. Also, Gaara won't be able to see Kisame very well from the outside considering that
You must be registered for see links
. Not to mention that he'll be trying to overwhelm the water dome with large scale sand attacks, making it worse for him. Furthermore, Gaara will have a hard time sensing underwater since the entire dome is made from Kisame's chakra, and the latter can also opt to create mizu bunshins and water sharks to feint Gaara as well, so it'll be difficult to even track Kisame, unless you think Gaara can form his third eye underwater, and even then that can be countered by bunshins.I say Kisame with high difficulty because he'll have to keep moving the water dome to prevent being sandwiched, and he'll have to provide distractions in mizu bunshins and water sharks to divert the sand away from him, even though it'll be slower and weaker underwater. Gaara will probably be trying to ascertain Kisame's location via the Third Eye and by hovering outside of the Dome's range. However, Kisame can feel Gaara's chakra and locate him. As I already showed, he can prep Daikōdan quicker than what he showed in canon and direct it at Gaara, who won't be able to instantly create a large enough shield to guard against it given the environment. Daikōdan will absorb Gaara's chakra, making the shark more powerful, causing all of the sand he's manipulating to cease its movement and halt the creation of new sand. From there on, Kisame can kill him or continue to absorb his chakra.
Last edited:
makosheva7
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,318
- Reaction score
- 35
lmao notice this is a very old thread.... I said that a long time ago... and I don't see it as being biased at all.... If it were in the desert, THAT would be bias.
makosheva7
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,318
- Reaction score
- 35
Yes. Why should they be any different speed wise? It's the same sand.
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
No Gaara had to save Onoki from falling which was more important and then Naruto showed up so Gaara took advantage of Naruto's presence. If Gaara could make a
You must be registered for see links
between him and Mu where Naruto was, I'm sure Gaara can move his sand to grab Muu's arms in a bit more time but before jinton gets prepped. Onoki's shown no such feats in comparison or else jinton would have been a non factor if Onoki could casually prevent it from occurring unless you think it was in Onoki's best interest to keep on wasting chakra to cancel Mu's jinton if he could have outright stopped him. . I was referring to Kisame fighting on the ground, in the water dome, it is a different story. Why would Kisame's suiton attacks be faster underwater? Water travelling through water means more fluid resistance as opposed to water travelling in the air. Also executing a jutsu while maintaining water dome hasn't been done and logically should take longer if he even can.
Fine they are at least as fast as each other in flight but Gaara's speed at which he attacks is even faster. I gave you three speed feats from Gaara's sand that put it above Onoki's flight speed.
1. Reached the meteor before Onoki did.
2. Caught up to 8th gate Gai in the same amount of time Madara barely turned his body.
3. Showed the speed feats to stop jinton from happening.
4. Fast enough to block Madara's sword slash as he was blitzing a large number of fodders. This feat also showcases Gaara's own visual/mental reactions which allowed him to perceive and counter the movements of a guy whose speed was troublesome for SM Naruto.
I've posted scans and explanations for these in my previous replies.
@bold: If that is the case, I can argue that
You must be registered for see links
since they wanted to get to Sasuke's location as fast as possible (
You must be registered for see links
). Or Hiruzen is on par with Hashirama and Tobirama. Or Temari is on Kakashi's level of speed because there was a sense of urgency to get to Suna. You'd also have to argue that KCM Naruto is as fast as Gaara's sand flight which agrees to my point. I've already countered water dome. Gaara in part one managed to take Lee and fly far away from the surface of the Earth before they could get impaled by the bone forest (
You must be registered for see links
)(
You must be registered for see links
) so he can do the same once Kisame floods the battlefield. Kisame will be wasting chakra maintaining the water dome while Gaara chills on top of his sand cloud creating sand on the ground. Eventually he should have enough sand to sandwich the waterdome's centre where Kisame is located. In part one, it took only one chapter for Gaara to make this amount of sand (
You must be registered for see links
)(
You must be registered for see links
) and a Shippuden Gaara can easily last against Kisame for two chapters so considering he can take more time and the fact he is far superior to his part one self, I'm sure he can produce a quantity of sand comparable to water dome. You're now talking about GSB but you're talking about water dome as well so which is it? Kakashi/Sasuke got more skilled in the future and Mei is more skilled than Zabuza at suiton. Kisame's skill level at the end of his life is going to be his highest level of skill with suiton. Edo Mu firing off jinton slightly faster than old Onoki doesn't mean much as there is a difference in chakra reserves. Anyway if WD comes out, GSB isn't happening as Kisame is constantly kneading chakra to maintain the WD so he isn't using even more chakra to use GSB. Both GSB and WD are Kisame's top tier jutsus so him using both at the same time is speculation as he hasn't done it in the manga nor has he done anything like this in the manga.
Deidara in flight, who is at the very least, equal to Kisame in the water,
You must be registered for see links
but Gaara's War arc sand speed feats are above that level so Kisame does get boxed in. Sure sand is going to be slower underwater but my point is that Gaara moves his sand above the water dome where it will be sufficiently fast and then suddenly submerge it. Sure water will slow the submerging process down but gravity and Gaara's own control of his sand should counteract this. Water clones and water shark feints are useless because Gaara will aim this sand around the centre of the water dome as the real Kisame is the one controlling it. The AoE of Gaara's attacks mean that he doesn't need to be able to pinpoint the precise location of Kisame. I think I've went over all of this.
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
Ok, but the speed with which Gaara manipulates his sand isn't the same as the speed with which he flies on his sand. I get your point, though.
My original thought in this respect was that the sharks move faster underwater by virtue of being sharks, but Kisame's sharks are created from water and there's no indication that they have the same biological makeup and traits as real sharks, so I'll drop that point.
Hmm? Why wouldn't he be able to use jutsus within the water dome? A single character using more than one jutsu simultaneously isn't anything new in the manga. Should be manageable for Kisame given his chakra reserves. It seems like you talked about this later on in your post, so I'll adress this further down.
Great, so we both agree that Gaara and Ōnoki are equals in flight speed. I already agreed to Gaara's sand manipulation speed being much faster, at least in the air. I also argued that KCM Naruto's footspeed is around Gaara/Ōnoki's flight speed in my previous post.
Fair enough, fight or flight type responses make characters faster than they actually are in reaction to an emergency situation. I'll agree. But that didn't prove that Ōnoki was slower mid flight than Gaara.
The problem here is that Gaara will also have to waste and expend more chakra than usual to compensate for the handicap of manipulating it underwater. Since it won't be as fast or strong, he'll need to compensate by raising the scale of his attacks, similar to how he did against Deidara after the latter evaded all of his inital attacks. Another problem here as well is that Gaara is going to need to break down a ridiculous amount of minerals into sand just to match the WD's size and AoE, which will expend his reserves even more. Not to mention that Gaara uses more chakra to manipulate normal sand or sand created from the earth as opposed to the sand in his gourd.
Kisame can also inhibit Gaara's ability to make sand by using Doton: Dōchu Senko followed by Suiton: Daibaksui Shōha underground, which will form the WD while simultaneously flooding everything underneath the earth around the area due to its large AoE. The water underground will also seep and spread into other areas of the battlefield. This won't prevent Gaara from making sand, but it'll make the process slightly slower and make the resulting sand slightly weaker, while buying Kisame more time before Gaara can make enough sand to overwhelm him.
Kisame wields a great amount of skill in suiton, much better than Mei by feats, or any other suiton user in the manga by a significant margin, so that plus the Zetsu scan I showed leads me to believe that he can fire off any of his techniques faster than usual if the situation calls for it.
The bolded: Why not though? I mean, if 30% Kisame used Doton: Dōchu Senko, Suiton: Baksuishōha, 3 Mizu Bunshins, and 3 Water Prisons without breaking a sweat or absorbing chakra, then 100% Kisame can definitely form and maintain the WD in conjunction with using other techniques including Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu. It isn't speculation if he has the chakra reserves necessary to do so. I mean, MS Sasuke was all Amaterasu/Susano'o spam at the same time, he even combined the two, and those were his best two conventional techniques at the time. He could do it because his chakra reserves and his pain tolerance enabled him to do so, unlike Itachi who can't use Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi and Susano'o at the same time due to his average chakra reserves, despite the fact that he has better pain tolerance than Sasuke.
Now we take Kisame, his reserves, pain tolerance, and durability all take a massive dump on MS Sasuke's [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
]. Both Kisame and Sasuke have to constantly knead chakra to maintain Water Prison Shark Dance and Susano'o, respectively, and both of those techniques are chakra taxing jutsus. While maintaining Susano'o, Sasuke also spammed Amaterasu and manipulated its course/shape/size, taking it a step further than Itachi, while taxing his reserves even more. Kisame shouldn't have a problem using Daikōdan while simultaneously performing the Water Prison Shark Dance, because he has the chakra reserves and durability to do so. It'll considerably deplete his reserves, yes, but he's going to have to do so in this fight against Gaara to win.One thing you're missing is that Shukaku Jin Gaara's sand control feats are superior to War Arc Gaara's sand control feats strictly speaking from a question of scale. Let's compare their perfomances in a desert environment.
vs. Deidara in Sunagakure
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
During the Fourth Shinobi World War
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Early Shippuden Gaara's sand could cover the majority of an entire village, while War Arc Gaara's sand covered around half of a shinobi battlefield or more (give or take), and a village is bigger. Early Shippuden Gaara also had more durable sand due it taking the shape of Shukaku's limbs. War Arc Gaara is definitely superior in sand manipulation speed, but the durability and the scale of his sand is going to matter much more than speed due to Kisame having the WD, and having the ability to move it from place to place rather quickly. Now we factor in the amount of chakra that Gaara is going to need to create sand from the soaked and flooded ground which is his non gourd sand, raise the scale of his attacks to match the WD, and simply move it all against a moving WD, I'd say that Gaara's chakra reserves are going to deplete more rapidly than Kisame's.
He's also going to be limited to using the sand on his gourd to protect himself because he'll be focusing on controlling the sheer amount of the sand that he's going to have to make. Gaara can attack and defend at the same time, but we've never seen him use a giant AoE sand attack and a large sand shield at the same time. Shukaku Jin Gaara probably could because his reserves are big enough to allow him to do so, but War Arc Gaara will not, as I showed above. All of this means that while Gaara is busy focusing on trying to create the enormous amount of sand necessary to match the WD, Kisame will position the Water Dome as close as possible to Gaara's position, Kisame will prep Daikōdan and fire it off at Gaara, who won't have the means to block it. He won't be able to evade Daikōdan before getting his chakra absorbed because Daikōdan's size is comparable to Daytime Tiger, suiton sharks are faster traveling mid air rather than underwater since a simple Suikōdan was able to travel from the center of turtle island to the sea rather quickly (only 5 pages) [
You must be registered for see links
]-[
You must be registered for see links
], and Kisame will have the jump on him as Gaara won't see nor sense the preparation of this technique. Once he gets his chakra absorbed, it's GG from there.
Char Aznable
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2014
- Messages
- 6,779
- Reaction score
- 494
Kisame negs. He took out Roshi med diff with the handicap of trying not to kill him.
Zexion~
Kage in the Making 👑
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2012
- Messages
- 17,100
- Reaction score
- 862
Kisme wins, Icelerates false assumption that Kisame's hand sign takes more than a second is appaling.
Trapping himself in water prison would defend against sand attacks at the start and from there he can fill the terrain with water and then cause GWD. Which ends gaara
Trapping himself in water prison would defend against sand attacks at the start and from there he can fill the terrain with water and then cause GWD. Which ends gaara
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
This is a valid and agreeable assumption but do bare in mind if Gaara uses his gourd sand to fly, it should be faster than his regular sand so it should compensate for the fact that flying around is different from throwing sand at a target.
Okay good.
It's not whether Kisame has the necessary chakra reserves to do so but whether he can knead that amount of chakra simultaneously.
No you tried to prove that Onoki's flight speed is equal to Gaara's through virtue of them travelling at the same speed but this isn't valid proof that this is the case due to the examples I listed above. I know this doesn't prove Onoki is slower mid flight but I'll agree they are equal in flight speed because most characters with flight, other than Juubi jins, have shown to be equal such as Mu, Onoki and Deidara so I'll assume Gaara is on par with them.
If Gaara puts in the same amount of chakra to manipulate the sand, it'll be slower underwater but once he raises it above the water dome, he can manipulate it normally. Gaara's chakra feats in the War arc include:
1. Using a
You must be registered for see links
.2. Using
You must be registered for see links
.3. Using a
You must be registered for see links
. 4. Using
You must be registered for see links
followed by an even
You must be registered for see links
. 5. Gaara uses his
You must be registered for see links
to protect himself. 6. Used
You must be registered for see links
and helped a bit against Mu as well.7. Then he
You must be registered for see links
to the 2nd Mizukage's location. 8. It is only during the fight with the 2nd Mizukage that Gaara finally starts showing signs of exhaustion (
You must be registered for see links
)(
You must be registered for see links
). You should realize there was some off panel fighting as well considering there is oil in Gaara's sand. 9. Gaara uses a
You must be registered for see links
.10. Then he went on to use the
You must be registered for see links
to protect against Joki Boi.11. To seal the 2nd Mizukage, Gaara used another
You must be registered for see links
. 12. Gaara went on to use a
You must be registered for see links
to cover the meteor's bottom surface. During the Sasuke Retreival Arc, Gaara managed to bury Kimimaro 200 m deep (
You must be registered for see links
). The water dome is not as deep and bare in mind Gaara can always create more sand, especially when this is current Gaara we're talking about. Gaara ended up increasing the density of that 200 m deep sand by compressing it with his chakra at the expense of sand volume and Gaara's own reserves (
You must be registered for see links
). Now imagine a much stronger Gaara making uncompressed sand which is less dense but greater in volume. He should be able to create enough sand to surround the centre of Kisame's water dome and then submerging that sand and attacking Kisame with it. Once he's attacked by the sheer mass of this sand, water dome's control will probably be disrupted, making Gaara's victory even easier from this point forward. Doton: Dochu Senko will only work if Kisame goes underground but he can't do that if he is using waterdome unless he uses water clones to do so. Well anyway, the water won't seep and spread elsewhere because Doton: Dochu Senko's range is limited so the water will be limited to the range of this technique because outside of this tech's range, there won't be any disturbed Earth pervious to getting flooded. Not to mention Gaara can make sand deep underground and I doubt Doton: Dochu Senko's range goes that deep because it was only shown making the surface of the earth into a fluid for Kisame to swim in.
Your point doesn't add up here. Kisame being a better suiton user than Mei is irrelevant as we aren't talking about the same jutsu. Mei used a water dragon much faster than Zabuza/Kakashi because her prowess in suiton is greater than them. Kisame is using another jutsu, a higher level jutsu in comparison to the one Mei used. Also Mei has faster hand seals and ninjutsu execution speed than Kisame considering Kisame only received a 3.5 in hand seals in the 3rd databook. On the other hand, Mei didn't receive any stats but she managed to use two high level suiton
You must be registered for see links
. Notice that Tsunade had already punched Madara's susanoo and sent if flying but right afterwards, Madara shot his katon which was followed by Mei using water pillar and then following up with a water dragon before Madara's susanoo could move much further from the pre existing momentum of Tsunade's punch. It isn't about whether Kisame has the chakra reserves to perform the two techniques but whether Kisame can use that much chakra at any given period of time simultaneously. Gaara is a chakra monster as well and has enough chakra for multiple sand tsunamis in different directions but people don't say he does that because there is no proof he can use multiple high level sand jutsus simultaneously. That Sasuke point relates two MS techs while here we are talking about elemental jjutsus which work differently. Also Sasuke and Kisame have their own skill level when it comes to manipulating chakra and can't be directly compared.
An exhausted War Arc Gaara who had fought his father, then helped with Mu then fought 2nd Mizukage all back to back managed to cover the bottom surface of Madara's meteor (
You must be registered for see links
). That meteor was larger than the C3 explosion which only covered a
You must be registered for see links
of the
You must be registered for see links
. None of Shukaku Gaara's sand control feats surpass Gaara's meteor feat. I'll agree that Shukaku Gaara's sand defence is stronger for the reasons you said and the fact that Shukaku's chakra would make his sand more powerful. War Arc Gaara's stamina feats that I listed above are greater than Shukaku Gaara who ran low on chakra right after tanking C3 (
You must be registered for see links
). You might counter by saying but he was a jin, however, he wasn't a perfect jin and couldn't sleep. Not to mention some of his chakra was suppressing Shukaku's power. Speaking of that, Gaara covered himself with a
You must be registered for see links
with a large amount of sand so I don't see why War Arc Gaara with superior manipulation and chakra can't do the same. Also you're wrong about GSB hitting Gaara. While GSB is pretty large, the distance one in flight can cover is much larger than the dimensions of the surface of the GSB (
You must be registered for see links
). Kisame positioning the centre of the water dome as close to Gaara makes it easier for Gaara to engulf the centre of the waterdome.
Last edited:
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
I'm sure he's always used his gourd sand for suspension flight due to its convenience.
The location isn't a desert so Gaara will have to expend more chakra to crush the earth down into sand in large quantities.
It's going to take him a while to do so (as in make the sand and catch Kisame), and Kimimaro was buried deep underground as it was easier for Gaara just to turn the earth around the area into a sandbox as opposed to Gaara creating a ton of sand in all parts of the location and trying to lift the sand above ground and trap Kisame.
The technique was shown that way b/c
You must be registered for see links
, he couldn't have done so if he went further underground. No reason to think why he can't go deeper underground b/c the technique turns the earth into a liquid for Kisame to travel within the same way that Hiding Like a Mole turns the earth into sand for its user to travel within and we've seen Kakashi and Kabuto travel deep underground. I'm talking about at the start of the match, btw. Kisame can go underground while Gaara starts the process of breaking down the earth into sand, then he uses Daibaksui Shōha. As its name in english implies and from what we've seen in the manga, Kisame spits out a tremedous volume of water with a tremendous amount of force that'd break through the ground, forming the water dome, and flood everything within the radius of this attack. Or Kisame can use the version that doesn't form the WD (Baksuishōha) in one area underground then travel underground into another sector of the location and use the former technique to cover a wider range.
Ok, I was getting rather careless with this point, so let me go back to my premise.
You must be registered for see links
we see Kisame start the process of preparing Daikōdan no Jutsu by clapping his hands. It happened roughly around the same time Might Guy opened Kyōmon, and formed some type of hand sign in preparation of his technique. A page later,
You must be registered for see links
at the same time Guy clapped his hands to form Daytime Tiger.
You must be registered for see links
we see Zetsu Kisame clapping his hands and yelling out the technique's name (instead of yelling out the technique's name after switching seals), and implicatively he would have spat out and formed the shark after changing his seal, which is a significant change from the techniques' standard prep time. I assume Zetsu had intel on his abilities b/c he basically replaced himself with Kisame mid battle, it would have been useless had he not known anything that Kisame was capable of. Now, the real Kisame will probably do the same thing if he finds himself in a bind or he senses a massive build up of sand coming from multiple directions.I'd say Kisame's chakra manipulation capability is at a high level considering that he can form 1,000 sharks out of water almost instantly, create a massive sphere of water, and apply his own chakra absorption capabilities into a giant shark (Daikōdan). We've seen Kakashi and Yamato explain how difficult it is to just apply shape manipulation to a technique, so adding something else into into a technique like Kisame did with Daikōdan would probably have been extremely difficult to create. Sasuke still has to knead the chakra from his body to create Amaterasu and maintain Susano'o, so despite the two being eye techniques, I don't see how they're entirely different within this context. Also, Kisame can also create a bunshin and have it fuse with the samehada, and take Kisame's place in maintaining the WD while Kisame preps Daikōdan.
It's not about whether or not the bottom of the meteor was bigger than the C3 explosion (which is hyped to be a village buster), it's about the amount of sand Gaara used to block the meteor being greater than the amount of sand Shukaku Jin Gaara has used at a given time, and I'd say that
You must be registered for see links
(which was the sand used to block the C3 explosion) definitely surpasses Gaara's meteor feat. The sand Gaara used to block C3 was much wider than the scale of C3's explosion and covered a larger portion of the village.Gaara panting isn't really indicative of him running low on chakra, just that he had to move a massive amount of sand quickly enough to block C3, which was a tremendous amount of chakra used at a single time. Also, the dude's village was about to get nuked, fear could have also been part of what caused his panting.
You must be registered for see links
, and that wasn't indicative of him running low on chakra either, and you proved that yourself.You aren't accounting for the speed of the attack, and the fact that Gaara won't see it until it's fired off, and will have less time to react to react to it on top of the shark's dimensions.
Icelerate
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 9,255
- Reaction score
- 1,262
My original point is that since Gaara's gourd sand is much faster and the fact he uses it to fly means that his slower sand out speeding Onoki to the meteor speaks volumes on Gaara's gourd sand's flight speed.
I just proved that he has the chakra reserves to do just that as he won't be in a gauntlet where he has to fight multiple opponents one after the other.
Doesn't take too long for Gaara to create sand as shown in Gaara VS Kimimaro. By the end of chapter 215, he had enough for a
You must be registered for see links
. A large portion of the battlefield was
You must be registered for see links
at this point. Gaara even says that it
You must be registered for see links
from the ground so I suggest you drop your point on it taking too much time/chakra. Kimimaro wasn't buried deep underground when Gaara was making sand. He was constantly being pressured by Kimimaro (
You must be registered for see links
) while simultaneously defending from/
You must be registered for see links
all the while passively creating sand from the earth. How deep did Kakashi and Kabuto travel underground? I don't remember them travelling that far underground. Regardless, if he goes deep, once the surface of the Earth above Kisame's head is turned into sand, he'll be at a disadvantage situation.
Water won't destroy rock and isn't going to change the substance of rock so Gaara can still convert it to sand and it won't be slightly weaker because the rock may be drenched in liquid but it is still the same substance. Gaara's sand has been shown to function normally even inside Mei's waterdragon filled with electricity.
Okay but maybe the extra prep time is what increased the strength and size of the attack so Kisame's hastily casted GSB is going to be a lot weaker. I highly doubt it is strong enough to breach Gaara's sand dome when you take into account that GSB is a blunt force attack which
You must be registered for see links
more easily than piercing attacks. If Kisame senses a massive build up of sand from multiple directions, how does GSB help him out when that is only used in one direction? Not to mention logically speaking Gaara manipulating pre existing sand should still be faster than using a hand seal, spitting out water, forming it into a shark and then firing it.He made 1000 sharks separately while not using any other jutsu in conjunction. Same goes for the water dome. Your GSB point actually proves my point, if Kisame is to apply his own chakra absorbing ability into it and form the shark, that is already a lot of effort in of itself. Now add the fact he is using waterdome simultaneously and it becomes doubtful whether he can still do it. Sasuke and Kisame are too different people with different skills when it comes to ninjutsu mastery. Kisame only got a 4.5 in ninjutsu whereas Sasuke got a 5.0 but even without the ninjutsu score, it should be evident that Sasuke is a better ninjutsu user than Kisame. Also here you're comparing dojutsu techs to elemental techs even though they work differently such as non requiring hand seals. Furthermore, do bare in mind that Kisame used the water dome after absorbing a large amount of chakra from Killer Bee's cloaks.
A mere water clone isn't maintaining WD when WD is Kisame's strongest tech and 30% Kisame couldn't form waterdome yet now a 10% Kisame can do this considering a water clone is only 10% of the original (
You must be registered for see links
)? When was C3 hyped to be a village buster? It's AoE only seems to cover a portion of a village. Even the
You must be registered for see links
says a large portion of a village. This scan you linked shows a volume of sand where
You must be registered for see links
so it isn't that large. Covering the bottom of the meteor would require a quantity of sand large enough to cover the meteor's bottom so that is a large quantity of sand. I'm not an expert when it comes to scaling attacks but it should be obvious that covering the bottom of C3 isn't as impressive as covering the bottom of a meteor, which has the
You must be registered for see links
and its impact was felt an entire country away (
You must be registered for see links
)(
You must be registered for see links
). Gaara's sand that was used to block C3 was only slightly larger than the AoE of the explosion considering the smoke from the explosion (
You must be registered for see links
) nearly covers the entire wall of sand below. Yes it was, Gaara had exhausted himself quite a bit by the time he fought the 2nd Mizukage. Deidara even claims that blocking C3 took a lot out of him (
You must be registered for see links
) and by feats, War Arc Gaara went through a gauntlet unlike early Shippuden Gaara. Gaara will be able to see a disturbance on the surface of the water created by the movement of the shark while it's still deep underneath the water.
Ghost in the Shell
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 1,481
- Reaction score
- 180
I think we've already agreed that sand manipulation speed =/= sand suspension speed. There isn't enough discernable evidence, unless you show me Gaara covering more distance at a shorter time than Onoki, that Gaara is faster. At the very least, I can consider them equals. The fact that Gaara used his sand to transport Onoki doesn't indicate that sand suspension is > his flight speed because Gaara doesn't use much chakra at all to suspend and fly with his sand, and he has much higher reserves than Onoki, so the latter probably rested on it to conserve his stamina.
Fair enough about the bolded, but manipulating non gourd sand takes more chakra for Gaara, so he'll still end up expending a fair amount of chakra in trying to capture and crush Kisame regardless.
Deep enough as to not make any obvious indications of their movements on the surface until they're actually coming up to attack. Kisame only needs to stick around below the surface, not any deeper, because he would be at a disadvantage. Samehada can sense the creation of sand, so Kisame will know when to execute his jutsu.
Bolded: That scan only showed that Gaara is capable of manipulating his sand underwater, not that it functions like it normally does on land. Like we've agreed, fluid resistance will make the sand slower. Logically, the sand should also be weaker since its going to be all mushy, making it harder for Gaara to fully reinforce his sand with the same strength as he does on land when the sand is dry [
You must be registered for see links
], and making it easier for Kisame to break out of it should he find himself trapped.
You must be registered for see links
, we see that Madara's movements were dulled by Ay's raiton mixed in with the suiton dragon, allowing Gaara to restrain him with sand, implying that couldn't have done so if without Madara being handicapped. My point was that Kisame would only have to rush its prep if he finds himself in a bind. Like I said, Gaara can't use a large sand attack and a large sand shield at the same time, so GSB even at half its regular size should have no problem absorbing Gaara's chakra if he's protected by his
You must be registered for see links
. I hardly think that Gaara's mother shield would completely cease the attack at full power either since said attack should be roughly on par with the shield in size if we apply scaling, and the attack is always going to be moving and pushing forward as long as Kisame maintains it. Ok, now that I actually think about it I'll drop my point about the water dome + GSB in conjunction with each other, but Kisame absorbing Bee's chakra to use the Dome isn't relevant since Kisame has more than enough chakra to use and maintain it at the same size by himself. However, Kisame can still spit great amounts of water all across the region, esentially turning the location into a giant lake, which gives Kisame an even greater advantage geographically speaking.
Ok, C3 was a gross exaggeration, but that doesn't really factor too much into my point. If we apply scaling, the surface area of that dome spread out surpasses Gaara's meteor feat because the sand only managed to cover the
You must be registered for see links
when the rest of it is actually much
You must be registered for see links
. I'll prove my point further below. It took a lot out of him because he moved a ton of sand very quickly all at once to shield the village from C3 in time. Just take a look at this
You must be registered for see links
(bottom right panel), and note the
You must be registered for see links
relative to the amount of time it took to make that distance while factoring in the amount of sand he was using at once. He did this all right before Deidara detonated C3 [
You must be registered for see links
]. Also factor in that he didn't even use the entirety of that giant sand dome to block C3 [
You must be registered for see links
] (top left panel), so he also had to maintain that in the air so that it didn't fall down on the villagers. Now we add in the sand dome Gaara used to cover himself, and we can conclude that the amount of sand Gaara was using, maintaining, and manipulating all at once in that instance was insane. We've never seen Gaara move so much sand at such speeds in any other instance, and War Arc Gaara was manipulating comparatively smaller amounts of sand at a much slower speed, and the latter had the benefit of being closer to the ground where there was more sandActually, it'll be harder to note if Kisame simply creates a lake and uses it from deep underwater since the dome will logically be a bit more transparent. Also, its not like the shark is slow underwater by any means.
Last edited: