[Discussion] On Gududama, Black Rods, and Their Powers!

[NaruSasuRival]

There is a certain believe one the base that it is impossible to touch the black rod, and that anyone who can touch them is immune to their power. The problem is that the power of these black rods, gududama, etc are even unclear as to how they works. However, I have a different interpretation of these rods.

1. How do they works?

In my opinion, Gududama and all its derivatives including the black rods are not always lethal. Here are some cases, and I won't bring all the manga pages:

When Naruto was restrained by Nagato's black rods, Hinata was able to touch them and attempt to remove them. When she couldn't, she kicked them and broke some of them. When Sasuke touched Tobirama's black rod, it was seen by Tobirama has a feat, but I still think it was the same as Hinata's case. Besides, at the time Sasuke touched Tobirama's BR, Madara was already beaten up pretty bad by Guy and Naruto. Since the previous ones are unclear, I will use all the sequences in Hashirama's case to prove my point:

1. Hashirama stabbed with many blak rods and Madara wrapped in wooden dragon. It is obvious that Hashirama performed his jutsus after Madara stabbed him, otherwise it is impossible for Madara to stab him with his rod.

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2. In spite of having the black rod in his body, Hashirama was able to move when Naruto thrown his FRS. Note that Madara still have his edo Rinnegan.

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As you can see in the sequence with Hashirama, being stabbed with Black rod does not necessarily means that their power is being used. Those black rods can be used as simple rods to strike. However, for their true power which we are talking about to take effect, the user need to send his chakra inside the target through the rod. This is how Madara definitely stopped Hashirama.

This being said, Sasuke touching the black rod of Tobirama has zero value just as Hinata touching the black rods of Naruto as long as the users (Madara and Nagato) are not sending chakra inside SAsuke and Hinata's body. In this case, it is even impossible because the rods are not planted inside Sasuke or Hinata. This is also the same for Sasuke standing on a solidified Gududama disk, and any person with logic should understand it.

Finally, another example is Minato teleporting Madara's Gududama in Konoha. Once they are out of range, they can do nothing. This makes even Sasuke and Tobirama's case a dummy one because Madara was already very far from them.

 

[Gerkak]

interesting. Well thought out.

 

[Ansatsuken]

The black rod is Madara will not gudoudama

 

[jiraiya nindo]

I dont remember hinata kicking any black rods. Mangaphax? Please provide scans

 

[Madara Uzumaki Uchiha]

I'll do a thread later on my interpretation.

Truthfully, I think black rod, gudodama, bijudama, and omnyouton are all different techniques.

Even though they are all black orbs- which is confusing- don't know why kishi did that - lacked originality??

 

[Byron123]

In th manga I can't find Hinata touching one of the rods, can you post a page of it?

 

[Ansatsuken]

In th manga I can't find Hinata touching one of the rods, can you post a page of it?

Missing page maybe or hidden page, just OP able to see it XD

 

[ANiMUS]

The TSB rods don't disturb chakra. Sakura was still able to move, to try and punch Madara and her hyakugou seal was still active.

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Kaguya's arm though pinned to the ground was still able shoot out bones and even open portals

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Also, chakra rods are different from TSB rods. Obito shot them from his hands in prep for the barrier here while the TSB were still on his back:

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You don't have to put chakra into TSB in order for it to erase matter. That was never shown.

 

[Draxus]

You seemed to have omitted quite a bit to make you point. I'm not saying I disagree with your hypothesis, but your proof is lacking.

1. Goudama and Edo Madara/Pein's rods are not on the same level, so can't be compared. You also can't compare Madara's power to Pein's. Obviously the black rods ability to transmit charka is much different between Pein and Nagato, so it stands to reason the original owner of they eye's rods are even more potent.

2. You say Hashirama moved even though he had the rods in him, but he didn't say they caused paralysis. Madara used them to make it so he couldn't mold chakra properly. Most likely since he's and edo, pinning him down wouldn't do much cuz he could just rip off his arm or whatever appendage was pinned to the ground.

 

[Jnaru]

I dont remember hinata kicking any black rods. Mangaphax? Please provide scans

It was in anime

 

[VongolaX]

Depending on what type of chakra is being in bused into them, that is the type of characteristic it takes.

So if you use it for six path justus it take that form by using sage chakra:

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If you are using yin yang rlease, you put that chakra type into it:

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An the other is outerpath, the one that we see breaks constantly...

The chakra Madara used on Tobirama and Hashirama after the absorption is a rikudou yin yang staff but smaller as seen here:

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Both the rods and gudodama started vanishing, because they carry the same attribute of a yin yang release.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

Well, Hinata's case would be a fluke since I started to read the manga after Pain arc. You can ignore that fact and it does not change my argument because Hashirama's case, which I detailed encompasses all the other case. The reason is that Hashirama is moving even with black rods in his body.

Now, to all the other people who are creating the following:

(1) Black Rods
(2) Gududama black Rods

Please, give me a single reference where it is stated that there is such differentiation between the different rods. See, Kishi never said there is such a difference. Rather, it is the users own interpretation. My point is this:

Black rods, tailed beast bomb, Gududadama, the floating black disk, as well as the black egg in which Obito hid himself are made using the same process and the same source of chakra. The user manipulates the shape, add more elemenets, or uses specific jutsus in combination (e.g. sending chakra through, or adding omnyoudon) to achieve specific goals.

My argument is even supported by Kaguya's attempt to create a new dimension with the gududama. Naruto used his transformed gududama to seal Madara's Limbo and I bet he added a sealing on top of the rod. Naruto pinned down BZ with the rod similarly to what Nagato did to him, and BZ who is fluid couldn't fruit himself from it.

A nice parallel is the Rasengan. You have raw Rasengan, Fuiton Rasengan, Lava Rasengan, etc. Each one of them contains a base material which is Naruto's chakra. When Naruto had a sealing on top of the mangnetic rasengan, it can seal someone like Limbo Madara. In the case of Gududama, it is coming from Senjutsu chakra, which comes either from Gedo Mazou, Zetsus, or Gedo Mazou cultivated Hashirama's cells, or Senjutsu of the six paths. They all gives the ability to produce the balck element which is the basis for all the variants of Gududama, black rods, etc.

So:

(1) Black Rods or fluid: Base element can be use to strike an enemy.
(2) Black rods used as chakra antenna to control body and restreint enemy by sending chakra into them
(3) Gududama: Black fluid with possibly a Yin-yang release on top of them to create Omnyoudon.
(4) TBB from Gududama by changing their component and size - used by Naruto to explode the Chubaku tensei
(5) Black disk: Another shape manipulation of the base black fluid into solid disk and control by the user through chakra connection to make it float.
(6) Exploding Gududama: A Gududama controlled by the user after activating unknown factors (not explained) to make it explosive. Obito used on Minato and Tobirama teleported it with his clone.


Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel like people think Gududama is a static think and never change properties. It can explode, expand, cut, etc. I doubt it is not changing property to give specific effects. For example, I am certain that chakra cloak Susanoo, Ribcage Susanoo, and PS are all Susanoos, but they have different composition. It is the same for the black fluid and all his stages. So, the real deal here is:

The Black Fluid​

 

[ANiMUS]

Well, Hinata's case would be a fluke since I started to read the manga after Pain arc. You can ignore that fact and it does not change my argument because Hashirama's case, which I detailed encompasses all the other case. The reason is that Hashirama is moving even with black rods in his body.

Now, to all the other people who are creating the following:

(1) Black Rods
(2) Gududama black Rods

Please, give me a single reference where it is stated that there is such differentiation between the different rods. See, Kishi never said there is such a difference. Rather, it is the users own interpretation. My point is this:

Black rods, tailed beast bomb, Gududadama, the floating black disk, as well as the black egg in which Obito hid himself are made using the same process and the same source of chakra. The user manipulates the shape, add more elemenets, or uses specific jutsus in combination (e.g. sending chakra through, or adding omnyoudon) to achieve specific goals.

My argument is even supported by Kaguya's attempt to create a new dimension with the gududama. Naruto used his transformed gududama to seal Madara's Limbo and I bet he added a sealing on top of the rod. Naruto pinned down BZ with the rod similarly to what Nagato did to him, and BZ who is fluid couldn't fruit himself from it.

A nice parallel is the Rasengan. You have raw Rasengan, Fuiton Rasengan, Lava Rasengan, etc. Each one of them contains a base material which is Naruto's chakra. When Naruto had a sealing on top of the mangnetic rasengan, it can seal someone like Limbo Madara. In the case of Gududama, it is coming from Senjutsu chakra, which comes either from Gedo Mazou, Zetsus, or Gedo Mazou cultivated Hashirama's cells, or Senjutsu of the six paths. They all gives the ability to produce the balck element which is the basis for all the variants of Gududama, black rods, etc.

So:

(1) Black Rods or fluid: Base element can be use to strike an enemy.
(2) Black rods used as chakra antenna to control body and restreint enemy by sending chakra into them
(3) Gududama: Black fluid with possibly a Yin-yang release on top of them to create Omnyoudon.
(4) TBB from Gududama by changing their component and size - used by Naruto to explode the Chubaku tensei
(5) Black disk: Another shape manipulation of the base black fluid into solid disk and control by the user through chakra connection to make it float.
(6) Exploding Gududama: A Gududama controlled by the user after activating unknown factors (not explained) to make it explosive. Obito used on Minato and Tobirama teleported it with his clone.


Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel like people think Gududama is a static think and never change properties. It can explode, expand, cut, etc. I doubt it is not changing property to give specific effects. For example, I am certain that chakra cloak Susanoo, Ribcage Susanoo, and PS are all Susanoos, but they have different composition. It is the same for the black fluid and all his stages. So, the real deal here is:

The Black Fluid​

Ok, at least you get that there are differences, but no there is a difference between most of the things that u have stated even though all of them are products of Yin Yan release.

Outer Path rods: Breakable, transmit chakra, and as you said can be used to control ppl

Tbb: very unstable can be used for explosions. can't exercise control over any one

TSB: The most perfect form of the black substance we have seen. Able to erase matter and ninjutsu, and has over four different nature manipulations which allows the user to adjust their shape at will. The TSB can even explode producing the same affect as the TBB and most likely are TBB only with added elements, however they can not transmit chakra like the Outer Path Rods.

There is not a single instance in which the TSB were used to transmit chakra or seal anything tht wasn't already sealed

Even though all of these techniques look really similar it is best that we have a distinction U_U
Outer Path Rods r a product of In'youton, but they do not = TSB, TSB don't have the abilities of the Outer Path rods and vice versa

 

[NaruSasuRival]

Ok, at least you get that there are differences, but no there is a difference between most of the things that u have stated even though all of them are products of Yin Yan release.

Outer Path rods: Breakable, transmit chakra, and as you said can be used to control ppl

Tbb: very unstable can be used for explosions. can't exercise control over any one

TSB: The most perfect form of the black substance we have seen. Able to erase matter and ninjutsu, and has over four different nature manipulations which allows the user to adjust their shape at will. The TSB can even explode producing the same affect as the TBB and most likely are TBB only with added elements, however they can not transmit chakra like the Outer Path Rods.

There is not a single instance in which the TSB were used to transmit chakra or seal anything tht wasn't already sealed

Even though all of these techniques look really similar it is best that we have a distinction U_U
Outer Path Rods r a product of In'youton, but they do not = TSB, TSB don't have the abilities of the Outer Path rods and vice versa

Well, we are making some progress. The mistake made here by many people is that because black disk was created from Gududama, it is then a the same as Gududama. They think the black rod naruto used to seal Limbo Madara is also a gududama. I think they are all wrong. Each transformation of the black fluid is a different element, and has different properties.

On sending chakra through Gududama, I am pretty sure it is being done. How can you explain Gududama explosion, and the fact that it is being tele-guided by the user if there is no chakra connection.

Lesson: the gududama can be used to create anything in the Narutoverse [BZ]. Thus, Naruto can create anything from the substance of the Gududama, including even a tree.

 

[ANiMUS]

Well, we are making some progress. The mistake made here by many people is that because black disk was created from Gududama, it is then a the same as Gududama. They think the black rod naruto used to seal Limbo Madara is also a gududama. I think they are all wrong. Each transformation of the black fluid is a different element, and has different properties.

On sending chakra through Gududama, I am pretty sure it is being done. How can you explain Gududama explosion, and the fact that it is being tele-guided by the user if there is no chakra connection.

Lesson: the gududama can be used to create anything in the Narutoverse [BZ]. Thus, Naruto can create anything from the substance of the Gududama, including even a tree.

The Disc Sasuke rides on is made from the TSB. In the bottom panel you can see it expanding until the next page you see it become a platform for Sasuke.

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Obito was able to use much crazier shapes, but alas it is all the same function.

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^Here you will see Hiruzen comparing the technique to a KKT (Jinton) in which multiple elements are used together. And this allows one to fix the shape into anything they choose

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So, to conclude its not different elements being used at different intervals, but the combination of multiple elements that give TSB their fluid form.

Also, I don't think anyone apart from Kaguya can create things using TSB.............Possibly Hagoromo........maybe

 

[kaiyokoon]

They are not all the same thing, nor are they derived from each other, Kishi just has a terrible habit of making a bunch of different things solid black. There is nothing to suggest that the chakra receivers/rods/disruption blades are made of anything even remotely resembling the gudodama. Those rods were not only touched by characters but also broken much earlier in the series without the aid of sage techniques, have never shown to be malleable in any way, and have been examined by Konoha's medical experts. Aside from that, the black rods disrupt chakra they don't nullify, if they possessed the same nullification as TSB then Hashirama and Tobirama would've had permanent wounds all over their bodies from being impaled by then. Onmyoudon is a separate technique from the TSB, but it is always used in tandem (onmyoudon is always used with tsb, but tsb doesn't have to used with onmyoudon because I believe they can apply it to their bodies as well), the sole exception is when Obito was first juubified and that was only because he was out of his mind and was repeatedly stated to not be in control of his power yet.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

They are not all the same thing, nor are they derived from each other, Kishi just has a terrible habit of making a bunch of different things solid black. There is nothing to suggest that the chakra receivers/rods/disruption blades are made of anything even remotely resembling the gudodama. Those rods were not only touched by characters but also broken much earlier in the series without the aid of sage techniques, have never shown to be malleable in any way, and have been examined by Konoha's medical experts. Aside from that, the black rods disrupt chakra they don't nullify, if they possessed the same nullification as TSB then Hashirama and Tobirama would've had permanent woulds all over their body from being impaled by then. Onmyoudon is a separate technique from the TSB, but it is always used in tandem (onmyoudon is always used with tsb, but tsb doesn't have to used with onmyoudon because I believe they can apply it to their bodies as well), the sole exception is when Obito was first juubified and that was only because he was out of his mind and was repeatedly stated to not be in control of his power yet.

So, you think people have solid black rod in their body? Are you even saying that the will turning solid is something you can explain?

 

[NaruSasuRival]

The Disc Sasuke rides on is made from the TSB. In the bottom panel you can see it expanding until the next page you see it become a platform for Sasuke.

Spoiler

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Obito was able to use much crazier shapes, but alas it is all the same function.

Spoiler

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^Here you will see Hiruzen comparing the technique to a KKT (Jinton) in which multiple elements are used together. And this allows one to fix the shape into anything they choose

Spoiler

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So, to conclude its not different elements being used at different intervals, but the combination of multiple elements that give TSB their fluid form.

Also, I don't think anyone apart from Kaguya can create things using TSB.............Possibly Hagoromo........maybe

Can you tell if Hiruzen was hit by the black rod? Are you saying that Black rods are different from Gududama because Hiruzen said nothing about them?

Tell us why Hiruzen regenerated after being obliterated by the more than KKT fluid? Why did Minato get hit and never regenerated?

Oh, wait? It seems that the fluid used on Hiruzen is different from the Gududama used on Minato?
Also, Tobirama and Hashirama were hit by Obito's more than 4 elements fluid. This is my point and it is tangible. The black fluid even though it got same color can be transform into anything from simple rod, to gududama and vice-versa. Each one of them has its own properties. A gududama is a gududama, a disk plateau is a disk, and a rod is a rods. Even though they are made from the same black fuild, they have different state and properties.

 

[ANiMUS]

Can you tell if Hiruzen was hit by the black rod? Are you saying that Black rods are different from Gududama because Hiruzen said nothing about them?

Tell us why Hiruzen regenerated after being obliterated by the more than KKT fluid? Why did Minato get hit and never regenerated?

Oh, wait? It seems that the fluid used on Hiruzen is different from the Gududama used on Minato?
Also, Tobirama and Hashirama were hit by Obito's more than 4 elements fluid. This is my point and it is tangible. The black fluid even though it got same color can be transform into anything from simple rod, to gududama and vice-versa. Each one of them has its own properties. A gududama is a gududama, a disk plateau is a disk, and a rod is a rods. Even though they are made from the same black fuild, they have different state and properties.

The most likely reason as to y Hiruzen regenerated is because the Omyouton was incomplete. The TSB is a byproduct of the 6 Path Sage Mode. It is possible that one needs senjutsu chakra in order to complete the TSB and Obito obtained 6 Path Sage Mode when he gained full control over the Juubi. At that time Obito's orbs resembled the TSB that we see now.

So Pre Perfect Jinchuuriki Obito's orbs had yin, yang and>4 nature releases, but no senjutsu and therefore was only able to maintain shape for a limited time and lacked the permanently erasing effect of the TSB.

Perfect Jinchuuriki Obito had Six Path Sage Mode and as such was able to establish the complete TSBs which permanently erases what it destroys

 

[kaiyokoon]

So, you think people have solid black rod in their body? Are you even saying that the will turning solid is something you can explain?

Your logic here is confusing and a little shocking. Are you saying that just because they can create the chakra receivers from their bodies that makes them gudodama? That's now how it works. Both just happened to be black, but that's where the similarities end.