[Theory] Rikudo's Jinchuriki Power [Explained]

[FearxDeath]

a) Your theory would not bug me if the Sage hadn't Byakugan. The spiritual energy can be there without manifesting physically. But the Byakugan is a physicial trait that exists in every Hyuuga member... it doesn't appear by chance. Furthermore, taking in mind its properties and abilities... it seems like it's Yang (so the requirements for this ability to be inherited in the Younger son's branch seems plausible, because the Yin influenced doujutsu "Sharingan" is in the Elder Son's branch). Why not any Senju member has this ability or something alike? That Yang part of the Rinnegan couldn't just dissappear. This is what bugs me.

b) It is implied by Yamato, Kakashi, Jirayia, Shikamaru and Ino that Yin and Yang are in fact elements [

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], not just the origin of the chakra (Shikamaru/Ino clans use Dark and Light as elements for its jutsus). It is explained that the Yin Yang release is the origin of some element-less jutsus as Kage Bunshin, Bunshin, Genjutsus, Medical Ninjutsu, Multi-Size jutsus and other ones. Analyze it... in the end, it's the body with the mind what produces the chakra, and in the case of Rikudou, he had both in order to awake the Rinnegan, and in case of Madara, he had a heart made of Hashirama's cells producing chakra, and his Fuumetsu Mangekyo Sharingan and his mind projecting it.

A) Exactly, a physical trait. But we have already established that the sons were not created this way but rather they were created via the creation of all things jutsu. If that was the case and if they were to take on the physical traits of the sage then they would both have specials eyes and bodies. But the sage himself seperated them, which is why the physical traits being passed down from the sage to the sons do not apply. You are being confusing when you say it couldnt just disapear. The Sage himself seperated them, and basically what you are arguing is that he couldnt have fully seperated them. But this is non-canon because the manga says he did. I think what we have here is your ability to accept that the Sage can fully seperate the yin energies of the juubi enough that the sharingan doesnt appear in the senju, but also an inability you have to accept that the Sage can also fully seperate the byakugan/Rinnegan enough so that it too does not appear in the senju. Am I correct in assuming this?

B) You are correct when you say yin and yang are somewhat elements with there respective release. But they are not chakra's in the same sense that chakra is. Let me put it like this, when you are cooking something on the stove. The fire underneath the stove is the yin/yang chakras, the pan on the stove is the chakra. Now the pan needs the fire in order to cook things, but somethings can be cooked directly on the fire. These things are yin/yang releases. So as I said before, Yin/Yang Energies do not come about as a product of chakra, rather chakra comes about as a product of yin/yang energies. And some techniques bypass the need to form chakra and directly tap into the fire aka yin/yang energies.

Analyze it... in the end, it's the body with the mind what produces the chakra, and in the case of Rikudou, he had both in order to awake the Rinnegan, and in case of Madara, he had a heart made of Hashirama's cells producing chakra, and his Fuumetsu Mangekyo Sharingan and his mind projecting it.... This is where you lose me x__x, but actually this is a side topic anyways and Id be willing to give up this topic if you are and stick to the main one ^__^

Great Discussion

 

[FearxDeath]

The Rikudou Sennin was born with the rinnegan and a great physical body. He was a freak of nature like Harashima and Madara. The difference is both Harashima and Madara are a byproduct of him.

It's probably assumed that when he gave the older son his "eyes" and the younger son his "body" it was metaphorically. The reason why he was able to defeat the Jubi was because he could use any technique, any element and both yin/yang. The sage didn't belong to any clans because clans are ninja family which didn't exist back then because ninjutsu was something taught by the Rikudou Sennin

Here are a few of the mistakes you have made:

1) You start off by saying his was born with the Rinnegan, but I dont think you realize how big of a statement this is and the fact that you should probably provide evidences as to why you think this.

2) It actually wasnt metaphorical. It was actually, the promonent theory revolving this matter is that he created his sons via the creation of all things jutsu. Where as he could litterally pick and chose which ability to give them. Or perhaps he had them conventionally and then used the jutsu to alter them, but that seems less likely for some reason.

3) You say he didnt belong to any clans. First off a clan is just another name for family, you and I are part of our respective clans. If your name was John Bibby then you would be a part of the Bibby clan. So to say that the SO6P was not part of a Clan is an incredibly silly statement to make. Now to say he wasnt part of a ninja clan more viable but you should note that the Uzumaki and Hyuga are 2 clans that should not be considered ninja clans. The Hyuga to this day do not use any ninjutsu, and thus it is more than possible that they could predate the SO6P because unlike other ninja clans that were created after the creation of ninjutsu and thus after the SO6P, the hyuga do not rely on ninjutsu and thus could have predated the SO6P. The same can be said of the Uzuamki clan who use fuinjutsu, which too is not technically ninjutsu. And thus they too can predate the SO6P, but I think more importantly the fact that both of these clans have the possibility of predating the SO6P but also have been said to proceed the Uchiha and Senju, added with evidences that I and Derp have put together, I think this builds a powerful case to say that the SO6P was likely an Uzumaki/Hyuga.

4) The rest of what you said was pretty obvious so I wont comment on that.

Hope this helps

 

[Mr Hiru]

A) Exactly, a physical trait. But we have already established that the sons were not created this way but rather they were created via the creation of all things jutsu. If that was the case and if they were to take on the physical traits of the sage then they would both have specials eyes and bodies. But the sage himself seperated them, which is why the physical traits being passed down from the sage to the sons do not apply. You are being confusing when you say it couldnt just disapear. The Sage himself seperated them, and basically what you are arguing is that he couldnt have fully seperated them. But this is non-canon because the manga says he did. I think what we have here is your ability to accept that the Sage can fully seperate the yin energies of the juubi enough that the sharingan doesnt appear in the senju, but also an inability you have to accept that the Sage can also fully seperate the byakugan/Rinnegan enough so that it too does not appear in the senju. Am I correct in assuming this?

B) You are correct when you say yin and yang are somewhat elements with there respective release. But they are not chakra's in the same sense that chakra is. Let me put it like this, when you are cooking something on the stove. The fire underneath the stove is the yin/yang chakras, the pan on the stove is the chakra. Now the pan needs the fire in order to cook things, but somethings can be cooked directly on the fire. These things are yin/yang releases. So as I said before, Yin/Yang Energies do not come about as a product of chakra, rather chakra comes about as a product of yin/yang energies. And some techniques bypass the need to form chakra and directly tap into the fire aka yin/yang energies.

Analyze it... in the end, it's the body with the mind what produces the chakra, and in the case of Rikudou, he had both in order to awake the Rinnegan, and in case of Madara, he had a heart made of Hashirama's cells producing chakra, and his Fuumetsu Mangekyo Sharingan and his mind projecting it.... This is where you lose me x__x, but actually this is a side topic anyways and Id be willing to give up this topic if you are and stick to the main one ^__^

Great Discussion

You lost me on B). But basically you're telling me that Yin and Yang energies are used to make chakra. It makes sense, nonetheless.

in A), I can't fully agree. You would be right if the Byakugan would be Yin-based doujutsu, but that is non-canon.

 

[FearxDeath]

You lost me on B). But basically you're telling me that Yin and Yang energies are used to make chakra. It makes sense, nonetheless.

in A), I can't fully agree. You would be right if the Byakugan would be Yin-based doujutsu, but that is non-canon.

I dont understand what you mean by this "You would be right if the Byakugan would be Yin-based doujutsu". First off why is it relevant that the byakugan be a yin-based doujutsu. Also it was my assumption that all doujutsu's were yin-based, what makes you think it is yang based?

 

[Mr Hiru]

I dont understand what you mean by this "You would be right if the Byakugan would be Yin-based doujutsu". First off why is it relevant that the byakugan be a yin-based doujutsu. Also it was my assumption that all doujutsu's were yin-based, what makes you think it is yang based?

It's VERY relevant.

a) If the Byakugan is really a pure Yin based Doujutsu your theory could be correct (the Byakugan is a white eye, I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will).

b) If the Byakugan is really a pure Yang based Doujutsu, the entire Senju bloodline had to inherit a Yang Doujutsu, because Yang = Body. With lesser spiritual powers, yes, but with great power of perception of lifeforce.

Now, why I think Byakugan is a Yang doujutsu?

- Byakugan is a Doujutsu that even if not activated, it has a physical manifestation... they are white even if not active.

- This doujutsu is not related to any kind of jutsu that makes a dominant use of the Yin Release (it's not capable of creating genjutsu, it's not capable of creating Kage Bunshins or Bunshins).

- This doujutsu it's not capable to create lifeless things from nothingness (this is the base definition of the Yin Release). Examples: Bunshin, Kage Bunshin, Genjutsu.

- This doujutsu CAN see chakra circulatory systems, that is, lifeforce.

--- I guess this is it. I'm sorry if I had information I didn't reveal, I'm bad explaining myself sometimes

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

It's VERY relevant.

a) If the Byakugan is really a pure Yin based Doujutsu your theory could be correct (the Byakugan is a white eye, I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will).

b) If the Byakugan is really a pure Yang based Doujutsu, the entire Senju bloodline had to inherit a Yang Doujutsu, because Yang = Body. With lesser spiritual powers, yes, but with great power of perception of lifeforce.

Now, why I think Byakugan is a Yang doujutsu?

- Byakugan is a Doujutsu that even if not activated, it has a physical manifestation... they are white even if not active.

- This doujutsu is not related to any kind of jutsu that makes a dominant use of the Yin Release (it's not capable of creating genjutsu, it's not capable of creating Kage Bunshins or Bunshins).

- This doujutsu it's not capable to create lifeless things from nothingness (this is the base definition of the Yin Release). Examples: Bunshin, Kage Bunshin, Genjutsu.

- This doujutsu CAN see chakra circulatory systems, that is, lifeforce.

--- I guess this is it. I'm sorry if I had information I didn't reveal, I'm bad explaining myself sometimes

*Fair warning I am not going to address or really pay much attention to why you think the byakugan is a yang based doujutsu as that is based on alot of assumptions that we havent agreed on yet.*

A) I dont understand this, as I said before elaborate when you get the chance because I dont know why you think the things you think. As I dont have your brain, I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as it is helpful. "I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will", you would explain it the exact same way you explain how the Rinnegan evoluted into the Sharingan. Because the SO6P had his Byakugan turned into a Rinnegan. If you had a motorcycle and took the engine out and turned it into a bicycle, you wouldnt further have to explain how the motorcycle moves without an engine, it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a Bicycle... This is key to my theory.

B) You refer to the Sharingan as a Yin eye, what exactly does that mean? The Sharingan isnt formed by Yin energies, it is caused by Chakra that forms inside of the brain. [

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] And as I showed you earlier chakra is formed by a mixture of both Yin and Yang Energies. So I am a little confused when you say the Sharingan is a Yin doujutsu while the Byakugan is a Yang doujutsu. Before I can go any further with this I am going to need you to elaborate on this alot more, preferably using scans for the manga for factual reference.

 

[Mr Hiru]

*Fair warning I am not going to address or really pay much attention to why you think the byakugan is a yang based doujutsu as that is based on alot of assumptions that we havent agreed on yet.*

A) I dont understand this, as I said before elaborate when you get the chance because I dont know why you think the things you think. As I dont have your brain, I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as it is helpful. "I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will", you would explain it the exact same way you explain how the Rinnegan evoluted into the Sharingan. Because the SO6P had his Byakugan turned into a Rinnegan. If you had a motorcycle and took the engine out and turned it into a bicycle, you wouldnt further have to explain how the motorcycle moves without an engine, it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a Bicycle... This is key to my theory.

B) You refer to the Sharingan as a Yin eye, what exactly does that mean? The Sharingan isnt formed by Yin energies, it is caused by Chakra that forms inside of the brain. [

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] And as I showed you earlier chakra is formed by a mixture of both Yin and Yang Energies. So I am a little confused when you say the Sharingan is a Yin doujutsu while the Byakugan is a Yang doujutsu. Before I can go any further with this I am going to need you to elaborate on this alot more, preferably using scans for the manga for factual reference.

a) Agreed. Under that assumption, it makes sense.

b) I'm refering to the theory of the two sons created through the Yin Yang Release: Creation of All Things.

From Naruto Wikia:

Sage of the Six Paths

The Sage's ultimate wish was to establish peace across the world, but it was a goal that would never be achieved in a single lifetime. Knowing this, he chose to entrust his strength, dream and legacy to his two sons. The

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, who inherited the Sage's "eyes" (his powerful chakra and spiritual energy), believed that power was the true key to peace. The

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, who inherited the Sage's "body" (his powerful life force and physical energy), believed that love was the true key to peace. On his deathbed, the Sage chose his younger son to be his successor. Overcome by bitterness and envy, the older son attacked the younger, beginning a war between them. Their feud would continue on through their descendants: the

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and the

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.

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Yin Release

The Yin Release (陰遁, Inton; Viz "Dark Style" or "Shadow Style") techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness. When combined with

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, it allows the use of

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.

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During the

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,

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used the

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to seal the

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of the fox's

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within the Shinigami.

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According to the

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,

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fittingly falls under the broad category of Yin Release.

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Uchiha Clan Ancestor

He inherited the Sage's eyes, his powerful chakra and spiritual energy. He believed that force and strength were the key to peace. When the Sage was on his deathbed, he selected the

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to carry on his dream of establishing peace throughout the world. The older brother, angry and jealous that his father had not chosen him, fought his younger sibling to claim what he felt was rightfully his. The elder brother's descendants, who would become the

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, would continue this fight with the younger brother's descendants, the

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.

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Uchiha Clan

The Uchiha clan descended from the

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of the two sons of the

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. The elder brother inherited the Sage's "eyes", powerful chakra and spiritual energies. When it came time for the Sage to choose a successor, he questioned the two on what course of action they would follow to bring order to the world. The elder believed that power was the way to bring peace, while the younger believed love was the way. The Sage favoured the ideal of the younger brother, and therefore designated the younger as his successor, causing the elder to be filled with jealousy and hate.

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From this hate came what

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calls the

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(憎しみの呪い, Nikushimi no Noroi). From the

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descended the

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who would be the eternal rivals of the Uchiha.

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However, the Uchiha suffered another more dangerous curse: a passionate love that can become a bottomless well of despair the moment the one they care for most is dead.

The bold phrases tells everything. The Sharingan, the evoluted legacy of the Elder Son, has mostly Yin influence.

 

[FearxDeath]

a) Agreed. Under that assumption, it makes sense.

b) I'm refering to the theory of the two sons created through the Yin Yang Release: Creation of All Things.

From Naruto Wikia:









The bold phrases tells everything. The Sharingan, the evoluted legacy of the Elder Son, has mostly Yin influence.

This is sent from an iPod so excuse any errors.

First off keep in mind that what the wiki says should always be taken with a grain of salt, hence why I asked for proof via scans from manga rather than from the wiki. And this is why...

Reading the wiki alone I can see your point. But the manga says "the elder son was born with the sages eyes and was gifted with powerful chakra and spiritual energy and the younger son was born with the sages body and his strong life force and physical energies. The use of the word "and" implies that the two properties are not one and the same. This would mean the eyes the elder son got and the spiritual energies are not directly related.

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My original question still stands unless you have a problem with the above.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I couldn't demonstrate this specifically with manga pages, because almost all the manga demonstrates that the Sharingan is used for Genjutsu/Ninjutsu, being both of them Yin dominant influenced jutsus.

- The Second Mizukage already stated that Genjutsus are Yin based techniques [

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].

- The two most powerful genjutsus shown until now, Kotoamatsukami and Tsukiyomi, are Sharingan Genjutsus. The most powerful Fire-Related Ninjutsu, Amaterasu, is a Sharingan Ninjutsu. Both of these kind of techniques require a great chakra control and a tremendous spiritual energy.

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

I couldn't demonstrate this specifically with manga pages, because almost all the manga demonstrates that the Sharingan is used for Genjutsu/Ninjutsu, being both of them Yin dominant influenced jutsus.

- The Second Mizukage already stated that Genjutsus are Yin based techniques [

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].

- The two most powerful genjutsus shown until now, Kotoamatsukami and Tsukiyomi, are Sharingan Genjutsus. The most powerful Fire-Related Ninjutsu, Amaterasu, is a Sharingan Ninjutsu. Both of these kind of techniques require a great chakra control and a tremendous spiritual energy.

1) Lets get this back on track here. The reason you say that the Senju did not recieve any visual jutsu from the SO6P is because when the sage created him (And as you said before each son has a little bit of yang and alot of Yin with the other some having the vice versa of this, and although this is conjecture I will work with as it is the base assumption of your argument). Now my reply why if that was the case, why would the same thing not happen in my theory and you said that because the Byakugan is a "yang" doujutsu it would have been trasnfered over to the Senju and not the Uchiha since they recieved the Yang energy from the Sage.

But I already stated this:

"A) I dont understand this, as I said before elaborate when you get the chance because I dont know why you think the things you think. As I dont have your brain, I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as it is helpful. "I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will", you would explain it the exact same way you explain how the Rinnegan evoluted into the Sharingan. Because the SO6P had his Byakugan turned into a Rinnegan. If you had a motorcycle and took the engine out and turned it into a bicycle, you wouldnt further have to explain how the motorcycle moves without an engine, it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a Bicycle... This is key to my theory."

Which you replied to with:

"a) Agreed. Under that assumption, it makes sense."

Now with that said, the yin/yang energy would not longer matter. Whether the Byakugan is a yin or Yang doujutsu is irrelevant as it is no longer a Byakugan but is now a Rinnegan. And to argue on why the Byakugan yang chakra is not trasnfered to the senju is essentially arguing on how the motorcycle is moving without an engine. it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a bicycle.

 

[Hori]

wonderful theory...... too bad it will not happen

 

[Mr Hiru]

1) Lets get this back on track here. The reason you say that the Senju did not recieve any visual jutsu from the SO6P is because when the sage created him (And as you said before each son has a little bit of yang and alot of Yin with the other some having the vice versa of this, and although this is conjecture I will work with as it is the base assumption of your argument). Now my reply why if that was the case, why would the same thing not happen in my theory and you said that because the Byakugan is a "yang" doujutsu it would have been trasnfered over to the Senju and not the Uchiha since they recieved the Yang energy from the Sage.

But I already stated this:

"A) I dont understand this, as I said before elaborate when you get the chance because I dont know why you think the things you think. As I dont have your brain, I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as it is helpful. "I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will", you would explain it the exact same way you explain how the Rinnegan evoluted into the Sharingan. Because the SO6P had his Byakugan turned into a Rinnegan. If you had a motorcycle and took the engine out and turned it into a bicycle, you wouldnt further have to explain how the motorcycle moves without an engine, it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a Bicycle... This is key to my theory."

Which you replied to with:

"a) Agreed. Under that assumption, it makes sense."

Now with that said, the yin/yang energy would not longer matter. Whether the Byakugan is a yin or Yang doujutsu is irrelevant as it is no longer a Byakugan but is now a Rinnegan. And to argue on why the Byakugan yang chakra is not trasnfered to the senju is essentially arguing on how the motorcycle is moving without an engine. it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a bicycle.

Yang = Body. It is not something that can be activated/deactivated... it's a physical trait that is ever there. Byakugan is the perfect example, because it only activates in terms of ability, but not in terms of physical trait. "The eyes are always white".

Yin = Spiritual Energy, Sharingan. It's a different story, it is activated/desactivated, thanks to chakra control, in terms of ability and as a physical manifestation. "The eyes are black when deactivated, the eyes are red when active".

Why can't you see the relevance of Yin Yang relationship to what is physical/spiritual? I won't keep talking about this, I can't find a way to clarify better my point.

 

[FearxDeath]

Yang = Body. It is not something that can be activated/deactivated... it's a physical trait that is ever there. Byakugan is the perfect example, because it only activates in terms of ability, but not in terms of physical trait. "The eyes are always white".

Yin = Spiritual Energy, Sharingan. It's a different story, it is activated/desactivated, thanks to chakra control, in terms of ability and as a physical manifestation. "The eyes are black when deactivated, the eyes are red when active".

Why can't you see the relevance of Yin Yang relationship to what is physical/spiritual? I won't keep talking about this, I can't find a way to clarify better my point.

"Now with that said, the yin/yang energy would not longer matter. Whether the Byakugan is a yin or Yang doujutsu is irrelevant as it is no longer a Byakugan but is now a Rinnegan. And to argue on why the Byakugan yang chakra is not trasnfered to the senju is essentially arguing on how the motorcycle is moving without an engine. it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a bicycle."

You didnt address what I said to you, which is what you had already agreed with earlier?

 

[Mr Hiru]

"Now with that said, the yin/yang energy would not longer matter. Whether the Byakugan is a yin or Yang doujutsu is irrelevant as it is no longer a Byakugan but is now a Rinnegan. And to argue on why the Byakugan yang chakra is not trasnfered to the senju is essentially arguing on how the motorcycle is moving without an engine. it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a bicycle."

You didnt address what I said to you, which is what you had already agreed with earlier?

That's because my point wasn't made under your assumption.

 

[FearxDeath]

That's because my point wasn't made under your assumption.

Which assumption would that be?

 

[OfficialRikudouSennin]

your wrong on kuramas part kurama granted naruto wind realse to him when naruto was little

no.....its about the month and day there born search it up :| I should know me and naruto was born 10/10/96

 

[Mr Hiru]

Which assumption would that be?

1) Lets get this back on track here. The reason you say that the Senju did not recieve any visual jutsu from the SO6P is because when the sage created him (And as you said before each son has a little bit of yang and alot of Yin with the other some having the vice versa of this, and although this is conjecture I will work with as it is the base assumption of your argument). Now my reply why if that was the case, why would the same thing not happen in my theory and you said that because the Byakugan is a "yang" doujutsu it would have been trasnfered over to the Senju and not the Uchiha since they recieved the Yang energy from the Sage.

But I already stated this:

"A) I dont understand this, as I said before elaborate when you get the chance because I dont know why you think the things you think. As I dont have your brain, I dont mind reading a wall of text as long as it is helpful. "I can't explain how under your theory it could be evoluted into the Sharingan, but I'll take as it's just possible, and it could evolve so it could be activated/deactivated at will", you would explain it the exact same way you explain how the Rinnegan evoluted into the Sharingan. Because the SO6P had his Byakugan turned into a Rinnegan. If you had a motorcycle and took the engine out and turned it into a bicycle, you wouldnt further have to explain how the motorcycle moves without an engine, it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a Bicycle... This is key to my theory."

Which you replied to with:

"a) Agreed. Under that assumption, it makes sense."

Now with that said, the yin/yang energy would not longer matter. Whether the Byakugan is a yin or Yang doujutsu is irrelevant as it is no longer a Byakugan but is now a Rinnegan. And to argue on why the Byakugan yang chakra is not trasnfered to the senju is essentially arguing on how the motorcycle is moving without an engine. it is no longer a motorcycle, it is now a bicycle.

I didn't state my points under your assumption, because the Byakugan is white physically. This means activation/deactivation doesn't matter when we talk about Yang. Yang is something that is EVER there physically. I said that if Byakugan really were Yin, you could be right.

...in the other hand, if Byakugan was Yang, the Younger Son's branch had to come with a Physical form of a Doujutsu even if this doujutsu not activated, even if it can't be activated.

That little part of Yang in the Uchihas makes them have a body strong enough to make use of their eyes, that great part of Yang in the Senju that sometimes makes them strong enough to get the Hashirama's level. It's something that is not activated/deactivated, it is something that is there always. That's yang.

 

[FearxDeath]

I didn't state my points under your assumption, because the Byakugan is white physically. This means activation/deactivation doesn't matter when we talk about Yang. Yang is something that is EVER there physically. I said that if Byakugan really were Yin, you could be right.

...in the other hand, if Byakugan was Yang, the Younger Son's branch had to come with a Physical form of a Doujutsu even if this doujutsu not activated, even if it can't be activated.

That little part of Yang in the Uchihas makes them have a body strong enough to make use of their eyes, that great part of Yang in the Senju that sometimes makes them strong enough to get the Hashirama's level. It's something that is not activated/deactivated, it is something that is there always. That's yang.

All this talk about the Senju's Yang... x__x

Here is the thing you are not understanding. When the sons were created, the SO6P did not have a Byakugan. He had a Rinnegan. As the theory states he either turned his Byakugan into a Rinnegan via Creation of All Things, or he had it trasnformed into a Rinnegan from being the host of the Juubi.

Even here kakashi says that "The Rinnegan is just a mutation" [

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]. You keep getting hung up on why the Byakugan wasnt passed on to the son because it is a physical trait and I keep telling you "What Byakugan" the SO6P had a Rinnegan when he created his sons, the Byakugan was long gone at that point. The motorcycle is a bicycle.

Tell me the error in the logic above.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I'll take the assumption that the Sage had a Byakugan before becoming Jinchuuriki.

When the sons were created, the SO6P did not have a Byakugan.

That's what everyone knows until know. Agreed.

As the theory states he either turned his Byakugan into a Rinnegan via Creation of All Things, or he had it trasnformed into a Rinnegan from being the host of the Juubi.

Your theory states that the Juubi grants the power of Yin Yang, so he could sacrifice the Byakugan to turn it into the Rinnegan using the Yin Yang Release - Creation of All Things. The question is... how?

When you use the Creation of All Things, you create an instance (being this alive or lifeless). This instance has a part of Yin "with a little Yang", and a part of Yang "with a little Yin" (yes, Juubi was turned into Nine Beasts and the Gedou Mazou respectively).

When the Sage turned into the Juubi Jinchuuriki, he could awake the Rinnegan. The Juubi, even without the Sage, had a Doujutsu that resembled the Sharingan (9-Tomoe) and the Rinnegan (Cyclic Pattern).

Special Note: Creation of All Things "Creates Things", it doesn't destroy things to recreate them.

Let's analyze the two cases:

a) The case of Byakugan Being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yin is the Spiritual Energy inside a live being, its dark half. If Byakugan is really a Yin Doujutsu, it would mean that it's based mostly on Spiritual Energy it could be activated/deactivated showing a physical manifestation. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yang Lifeforce and Body (yes, Yang = Body), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time it could be passed down until it evolved into the Sharingan, meeting the trait of being able to be activated and deactivated, manifesting this trait energically and physically. Seems OK.

b) The case of Byakugan Being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yang is the Lifeforce inside a live being, its light half. If Byakugan is really a Yang Doujutsu, it would mean it's based mostly on Lifeforce, it would be ever manifested physically. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yin Spiritual Energy and Hatred (yes, Yin = Mind), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time these eyes could be passed down to their Two Sons.

In this case, if the Sage created Two Sons with Yin Yang Release - Creation of All Things, he had to divide the Rinnegan in both halves. Wonder what happens if you divide the Rinnegan with this Jutsu to obtain Two pair of Eyes... Yes sir, the Rinnegan was previously created with this technique. This could mean that the both parts of these eyes are what were used initially to create the Rinnegan: A Byakugan (Yang), and Juubi's Spiritual Energy (Originally the Marugan, evolved until become the Sharingan, the Yin part). But the problem is obvious... the Younger son didn't inherit the Yang of the Eyes, that below my previous posts, I stated that it ALWAYS had a physical manifestation. EVEN if it's not Byakugan, it had to be a Doujutsu with Yang influence, or in the worst of cases, a unique physical trait in the eyes in all the Younger Son's Bloodline. Apparently the Senjus had Black Eyes, but wait... Tsunade has Brown Eyes. Tsunade came from Hashirama who has Black Eyes, and Mito who had Black Eyes. The answer is quite simple... Look at Tobirama, he has Brown/Reddish eyes. That said, the Senju clan didn't inherit a Unique Eye Trait.

I'm pretty sorry, but the Bycicle/Motocycle argument only works for Yin based techniques that can be activated/deactivated.

That's why I came to the conclusion that the Sage couldn't have a Byakugan. I already gave you the hints of why the Byakugan is mostly influenced by Yang, and why the Younger Son's Branch had to inherit a Permanent Physical Trait in the Eyes as consequence of the Sage having Byakugan, even if he turned it into Rinnegan before creating his two sons.

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

I'll take the assumption that the Sage had a Byakugan before becoming Jinchuuriki.

Spoiler

That's what everyone knows until know. Agreed.



Your theory states that the Juubi grants the power of Yin Yang, so he could sacrifice the Byakugan to turn it into the Rinnegan using the Yin Yang Release - Creation of All Things. The question is... how?

When you use the Creation of All Things, you create an instance (being this alive or lifeless). This instance has a part of Yin "with a little Yang", and a part of Yang "with a little Yin" (yes, Juubi was turned into Nine Beasts and the Gedou Mazou respectively).

When the Sage turned into the Juubi Jinchuuriki, he could awake the Rinnegan. The Juubi, even without the Sage, had a Doujutsu that resembled the Sharingan (9-Tomoe) and the Rinnegan (Cyclic Pattern).

Special Note: Creation of All Things "Creates Things", it doesn't destroy things to recreate them.

Let's analyze the two cases:

a) The case of Byakugan Being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yin is the Spiritual Energy inside a live being, its dark half. If Byakugan is really a Yin Doujutsu, it would mean that it's based mostly on Spiritual Energy it could be activated/deactivated showing a physical manifestation. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yang Lifeforce and Body (yes, Yang = Body), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time it could be passed down until it evolved into the Sharingan, meeting the trait of being able to be activated and deactivated, manifesting this trait energically and physically. Seems OK.

b) The case of Byakugan Being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yang is the Lifeforce inside a live being, its light half. If Byakugan is really a Yang Doujutsu, it would mean it's based mostly on Lifeforce, it would be ever manifested physically. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yin Spiritual Energy and Hatred (yes, Yin = Mind), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time these eyes could be passed down to their Two Sons.

In this case, if the Sage created Two Sons with Yin Yang Release - Creation of All Things, he had to divide the Rinnegan in both halves. Wonder what happens if you divide the Rinnegan with this Jutsu to obtain Two pair of Eyes... Yes sir, the Rinnegan was previously created with this technique. This could mean that the both parts of these eyes are what were used initially to create the Rinnegan: A Byakugan (Yang), and Juubi's Spiritual Energy (Originally the Marugan, evolved until become the Sharingan, the Yin part). But the problem is obvious... the Younger son didn't inherit the Yang of the Eyes, that below my previous posts, I stated that it ALWAYS had a physical manifestation. EVEN if it's not Byakugan, it had to be a Doujutsu with Yang influence, or in the worst of cases, a unique physical trait in the eyes in all the Younger Son's Bloodline. Apparently the Senjus had Black Eyes, but wait... Tsunade has Brown Eyes. Tsunade came from Hashirama who has Black Eyes, and Mito who had Black Eyes. The answer is quite simple... Look at Tobirama, he has Brown/Reddish eyes. That said, the Senju clan didn't inherit a Unique Eye Trait.

I'm pretty sorry, but the Bycicle/Motocycle argument only works for Yin based techniques that can be activated/deactivated.

That's why I came to the conclusion that the Sage couldn't have a Byakugan. I already gave you the hints of why the Byakugan is mostly influenced by Yang, and why the Younger Son's Branch had to inherit a Permanent Physical Trait in the Eyes as consequence of the Sage having Byakugan, even if he turned it into Rinnegan before creating his two sons.[/spoiiler]

Spoiler

1) "This instance has a part of Yin "with a little Yang", and a part of Yang "with a little Yin" " You have said this on more than one occasion, and yet the reference is not cannon, as in it is not reflected by the manga to my knowledge and is a theory in itself. Am I correct in assuming this?

2) "That's why I came to the conclusion that the Sage couldn't have a Byakugan. I already gave you the hints of why the Byakugan is mostly influenced by Yang, and why the Younger Son's Branch had to inherit a Permanent Physical Trait in the Eyes as consequence of the Sage having Byakugan, even if he turned it into Rinnegan before creating his two sons." This is not what I am arguing against.

3) This entire part is irrelevant:

Spoiler

Let's analyze the two cases:

a) The case of Byakugan Being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yin is the Spiritual Energy inside a live being, its dark half. If Byakugan is really a Yin Doujutsu, it would mean that it's based mostly on Spiritual Energy it could be activated/deactivated showing a physical manifestation. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yin Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yang Lifeforce and Body (yes, Yang = Body), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time it could be passed down until it evolved into the Sharingan, meeting the trait of being able to be activated and deactivated, manifesting this trait energically and physically. Seems OK.

b) The case of Byakugan Being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu:

Spoiler

Yang is the Lifeforce inside a live being, its light half. If Byakugan is really a Yang Doujutsu, it would mean it's based mostly on Lifeforce, it would be ever manifested physically. Thanks to the Byakugan being a Yang Dominant Doujutsu and some of the Juubi's Yin Spiritual Energy and Hatred (yes, Yin = Mind), this Doujutsu could evolve into the known Rinnegan, and with the flow of time these eyes could be passed down to their Two Sons.

In this case, if the Sage created Two Sons with Yin Yang Release - Creation of All Things, he had to divide the Rinnegan in both halves. Wonder what happens if you divide the Rinnegan with this Jutsu to obtain Two pair of Eyes... Yes sir, the Rinnegan was previously created with this technique. This could mean that the both parts of these eyes are what were used initially to create the Rinnegan: A Byakugan (Yang), and Juubi's Spiritual Energy (Originally the Marugan, evolved until become the Sharingan, the Yin part). But the problem is obvious... the Younger son didn't inherit the Yang of the Eyes, that below my previous posts, I stated that it ALWAYS had a physical manifestation. EVEN if it's not Byakugan, it had to be a Doujutsu with Yang influence, or in the worst of cases, a unique physical trait in the eyes in all the Younger Son's Bloodline. Apparently the Senjus had Black Eyes, but wait... Tsunade has Brown Eyes. Tsunade came from Hashirama who has Black Eyes, and Mito who had Black Eyes. The answer is quite simple... Look at Tobirama, he has Brown/Reddish eyes. That said, the Senju clan didn't inherit a Unique Eye Trait.

I'm pretty sorry, but the Bycicle/Motocycle argument only works for Yin based techniques that can be activated/deactivated.

4) "I'm pretty sorry, but the Bycicle/Motocycle argument only works for Yin based techniques that can be activated/deactivated." Elaborate on why this argument is not possible, I am not sure why but I could not find your argument against this.

Here is what I am saying. The SO6P started off with a Byakugan, which then evolved into the RInnegan one way or another, much like a Sharingan can evolve into a MS. Now once that trasnformation was made, he created his sons etc.... I do not see where in the talk about the Senju and the yang chakra that the byakugan comes back up. Once the eyes have evolved it has done just that, and to argue that its prior form is still relevant seems off to me.

Let try this again, why doesnt the bicycle/motorcycle argument work?